Codean Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 When I say option to add... it's more like plug and play. The STi 6 speed has a built in oil pump with an external line that you can tap into. All you have to do is add lines and a cooler. To add an oil cooler to a 5mt you would need to get an electric oil pump, tap the transmission case twice then add the lines and a cooler. By saying "dozens of modders" you only strengthen my point that there is not a large enough user base. Out of these dozens of people how many are over 300whp and out of those people how many are babying the car so they will not hurt the trans (no launches). As far as this "some guy" who mods engines to make 600hp and doesn't have transmisson issues, do you have a link to a thead where he states that? What clutch is he running? Are you sure he is even using a 5mt with stock gears? My guess is you have no clue becasue he is just "some guy". Heck, I think I know "some guy" too! He has a 2500hp kia rio. Subaru transmissions strong? Where were you when the 2002 wrx came out? This brings up a perfect example though... Before the wrx nobody really complained about 2.5rs 5 speed manual because the majority of the owners were not making enough power. When the 2002 wrx came to american soil people were sheering the teeth off 1st, 2nd gears at stock power levels. Most of this was due to poor driving habits, but even being gentle at higher power levels caused the gears to lose teeth. I worked at a subaru performance shop that rebuilt the subaru 5 speeds. It seemed every week somebody would come in needing a rebuild. My horse power goals are inconsequential, I wanted the six speed because I saw first hand how fragle the 5mt could be, even though it has been slightly upgraded (by subaru). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 When I say option to add... it's more like plug and play. The STi 6 speed has a built in oil pump with an external line that you can tap into. All you have to do is add lines and a cooler. To add an oil cooler to a 5mt you would need to get an electric oil pump, tap the transmission case twice then add the lines and a cooler. By saying "dozens of modders" you only strengthen my point that there is not a large enough user base. Out of these dozens of people how many are over 300whp and out of those people how many are babying the car so they will not hurt the trans (no launches). As far as this "some guy" who mods engines to make 600hp and doesn't have transmisson issues, do you have a link to a thead where he states that? What clutch is he running? Are you sure he is even using a 5mt with stock gears? My guess is you have no clue becasue he is just "some guy". Heck, I think I know "some guy" too! He has a 2500hp kia rio. Subaru transmissions strong? Where were you when the 2002 wrx came out? This brings up a perfect example though... Before the wrx nobody really complained about 2.5rs 5 speed manual because the majority of the owners were not making enough power. When the 2002 wrx came to american soil people were sheering the teeth off 1st, 2nd gears at stock power levels. Most of this was due to poor driving habits, but even being gentle at higher power levels caused the gears to lose teeth. I worked at a subaru performance shop that rebuilt the subaru 5 speeds. It seemed every week somebody would come in needing a rebuild. My horse power goals are inconsequential, I wanted the six speed because I saw first hand how fragle the 5mt could be, even though it has been slightly upgraded (by subaru). I'm glad you finally chipped in with a bona fide opion. I kept asking and finally you give a decent account of yourself. Good on you and welcome to the forum. I did not know that an aux. motor was needed for a 5MT tranny cooler. Interesting. So far the 5MT has had no problems in 3 production years that I know of. Perhaps the problems with the earlier versions were dealt with. You know as well as I that these things are addressed and with the heavier platorm coming out you know they were. I can't find the thread that I unsubscribed from that had the guy doing boutique runs of LGTs. It's around here somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codean Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I'm glad you finally chipped in with a bona fide opion. I kept asking and finally you give a decent account of yourself. Nothing I really said was an opinion... everything I said was based on facts. Not sure how anything I said gave a "decent account of myself" either. Oh well, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I was shocked that the base 325 comes with vinyl seats (as does the base 330). My sister's boyfriend works as the parts manager at a BMW dealer in Cincinnati. He says a large number of BMW buyers buy the car stripped of options. The buyers want to be seen driving a BMW but can't afford one nicely equipped. And since noone can tell it's a stripped model from the outside they're all set! Just another reason to scorn the mass of brainless sheep who want to own a 3 series so badly, even willing to buy the model with the crappy interior just for the 'prestige' of owning a bimmer. One of the main reasons i shied away from the 3 series is because every tool, his wife, and his gf drives one in Cali. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Nothing I really said was an opinion... everything I said was based on facts. Not sure how anything I said gave a "decent account of myself" either. Oh well, whatever. Your experience with older Subaru transmissions was not mentioned until your second last post on this thread. That's what I call a bona fide opinion and a useful contribution to the knowledge base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akm3 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The 07 Spec B is for those that DON'T want to mod, not those that do. I am not comfortable modding my car, the Spec-B is essentially a pre-tuned car. It's perfect for me (well, except that I can't get it in a wagon...) Don't say "I should get the spec-b because the 6mt is stronger for modding!" That doesn't make sense, if you are serious about modding, you can do better for the $$ with a normal LegacyGT. That is my opinion. -Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlQHan Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The 07 Spec B is for those that DON'T want to mod, not those that do. I am not comfortable modding my car, the Spec-B is essentially a pre-tuned car. It's perfect for me (well, except that I can't get it in a wagon...) Don't say "I should get the spec-b because the 6mt is stronger for modding!" That doesn't make sense, if you are serious about modding, you can do better for the $$ with a normal LegacyGT. That is my opinion. -Allen No, it is because the spec.B has the 6MT and other misc. bits and pieces that it is the better choice. The spec.B is a better base because of things like wider, stickier tires, closer gear ratio, SI Drive, etc. To make the LGT spec.B spec, it would cost MORE than to just buy a spec.B. Dollar for dollar, the spec.B will be faster for cheaper. This is not like comparing the WRX TR to the WRX, this is comparing a WRX to a STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Its quite possible that the heavier 6MT will make the 07 slower. 0-60 time will suffer with the necessity of an extra shift. The 2.5 turbo boxer performs very well with the 5MT though the slightly taller cruising gear of the 6MT could be beneficial for mileage. I hope some 07 owners will let us know how well the 6MT pulls in freeway maneuvering situations. Will it require a downshift that is unnecessary with the 5MT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudy Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 No, it is because the spec.B has the 6MT and other misc. bits and pieces that it is the better choice. The spec.B is a better base because of things like wider, stickier tires Aren't wheels and tires the first thing you toss off a car when you mod? I don't know the specific wheel weights between Subaru's 17 and 18 inch rims, but in general I'd prefer smaller diameter rims, not bigger ones for performance. All you need is to be able to clear the brakes, 18's are unnecessary other than for show. The 17" rims on the LegGT give you something to use for winter tires, then just order a lightweight 17" wheel/tire combo for ~$1500. closer gear ratio Agreed, tranny is a plus, especially with the rear torsen. SI Drive, etc. Regular LegGT has SI Drive. To make the LGT spec.B spec, it would cost MORE than to just buy a spec.B. Dollar for dollar, the spec.B will be faster for cheaper. This is not like comparing the WRX TR to the WRX, this is comparing a WRX to a STI. Other than the 6-speed/torsen, I'm not sure what would be so hard to do better with a LegGT than what's on the Spec B? A quality coilover suspension is going to be about $2000 installed and configured. Lightweight 17" wheels/tires again, about $1500. What's left to do with respect to handling performance? Power between the two is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mookem Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 EarlQHan: Just to clarify - SI drive is on both the LGT and SpecB's for 07. Vimy101: The window sticker mileage for the LGT is 20/27 while the sticker on the SpecB is 20/26. I'm not saying the sticker estimated mileage is an accurate indication of real world mileage - but all things being equal - I was surprised to see the 6MT with 1 mpg less highway. I interpreted that to mean the gearing was set for performance rather then mpg gains - which makes sense as extra $ should go to performance - not gas savings. Just to add a bit to rudy's thoguhts: Brakes between the two are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slissner Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 My 07 spec.B does get better highway gas mileage than my 06 spec.B, probably because sixth gear is taller (numerically lower gear ratio) than the 06's fifth gear. The 07 is a more comfortable cruiser than the 06, though neither is as pleasant as my wife's 07 Outback LLBean wagon, which has the 3.0L six-cylinder engine. As my 07 hasn't yet been driven 1,000 miles, I can't say whether acceleration is impeded by the necessity to shift more gears. On the other hand, the six-speed linkage is so much smoother and easier to shift than my 06 spec.B's five-speed's short-throw linkage. Perhaps that will offset the extra shifting. I'll report back shortly as soon as the 07 has 1,000 miles. Yesterday we took a day trip through mountainous lands. The 07 spec.B was a great pleasure to drive, even if I couldn't rev the engine more than 4,000 rpm. The spec.B is a nice balance between agility and comfort and practical, too. It's not a Cayman or a Corvette, but succeeds in meeting its designers' goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Vimy101: The window sticker mileage for the LGT is 20/27 while the sticker on the SpecB is 20/26. I'm not saying the sticker estimated mileage is an accurate indication of real world mileage - but all things being equal - I was surprised to see the 6MT with 1 mpg less highway. I interpreted that to mean the gearing was set for performance rather then mpg gains. Yes. You'd think that the city rating would be lower than the hwy one because of the extra weight. I know that the final drive is slightly taller on the 6 than the 5MT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallysquirrel Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 In my '07 SpecB, I just recently got 24.9 (NAV), 24.6mpg (using own calculations) on a 350 mile trip doing between 80 and 90 mph. That's better mpg than I ever got in my WRX wagon. BTW that's using "I" mode most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The 07 is a more comfortable cruiser than the 06,... Because of the transmission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlQHan Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Thanks for clarifying. I thought the SI drive wouldn't be available to other cars until the 08 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juslaxn Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 i havent test drove the new spec B yet, but that is definitly what i am saving up for.... i think it's worth it, the extra interior bits, suspension, and navigation... just my .02 tho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 looking at the subaru brochure, the Spec B is the only 07 model with switchable on/off VDC traction control while the LGTs dont seem to have that option, correct me if im wrong. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudy Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 That's correct, only the SpecB and I think the auto w/ nav LegGT get the VDC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Paid about $33,200 before tax title destination and other charges. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psi365 Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 I'll give my views on the subject since I am in a similiar position. There a more then a few other choices out there, and more coming out. A lot of people are comparing the Spec B versus similiarly priced cars or equipped but missed a few. The closest car to compare the spec b to is the Mazdaspeed 6. It was briefly mentioned, and yes you do have to shift a lot, but I found that it was because that car rev's really fast. One of its down falls to me is that it isn't a true awd car. Add to that the powertrain is brand new and untested. I know Dodge is going to make the Charger awd and you can get the R/T model in awd, but no stick. Presently I am stuck between the MS6, LGT spec B (06 or 07), Stil Limited. The Sti Limited fixed most of my grips with the Sti and its boy racer looks. Problem there is trying to get one without grabbing your ankles. The MS6 can be had with almost all the same goodies as the spec B plus hid's. Again, you pay all that money and get a car that is fwd most of the time. Now we get to the spec b's I can get a new 06 for $30k with some options. I hate the fact the rear seats don't fold down. Not totally in love with a red interior, doesn't have traction control, 5spd (heard to many people having problems with WRX's and 5spds), no memory seats. I do like the exterior color, and saving money though. 07 spec b A lot of little things I like more. I like the piece of mind of the trans not grenading like the 5spds in Wrx's more then having to make an extra shift. 6spds are pointless in everyday driving cause you'll never really get to use the differences. I like the fact that the trans is more stout then having the extra gear. Torsions are good........its what makes Quattro quattro. Audi's with real quattro (non TT's or A3's) use a torsion to split power from front to back. I would like to have traction control (VDC) and the fact you can turn it off is even better. I get lost easy so either car with nav would be good for me. Memory seats are nice. I like alacantara seats for the fact that you don't get that hot seat feeling and sweaty back thing in the summer, and you don't get the stiff seat, frozen back in the winter when you first get in (yes I know it has heated seats). I do however hate their choice in colors. I love blue, but not in my interior.The blue interior is what turned me off from the Sti. IF subie would have put the red interior in with diamond grey that car would be hot. I could never get used to S4's with that color combo and still can't. I also don't know to much about it, but tire pressure monitoring. I don't know if you can switch it off, cause if you can't it gets real expensive if you put a set of winter tires and rims on. Also now you can get the exterior color on any Legacy instead of if being a spec b only thing. Can't chip a car with Si drive (at least yet?). Disappointment in both Sti's have hid's, I would think B9's do to, why doesn't the top of the line LGT not have them too? No power increase over a regular LGT. You pay the premium to get their top of the line Legacy, you get suspension and other options available on Legacys, but no power bump to make it a no brainer. Why god oh why no regular black interior like the Sti limited? No choices for interior or exterior colors. Why isn't auto dimming mirror standard? It is on the Sti Limited. 18" tires in a wierd size is going to be expensive when it comes time to get new tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaWolverine Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 I like the Limited tuned by STi too, but there's no guarantee of it coming, and if it's close to 40k, until it's out and tested, on paper, there could be better choices, albeit a lot more common on the road. I'm leaning towards to the '07 Spec, but I'm still weighing the options. And SI has been cracked, so you can use the accessport with it, it'll be out early next yr or something like that. I agree w/ your comments about the interior. I wish it had HIDs, better brakes and power specs, and a better NAV if it has it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Disappointment in both Sti's have hid's, I would think B9's do to, why doesn't the top of the line LGT not have them too? No power increase over a regular LGT. You pay the premium to get their top of the line Legacy, you get suspension and other options available on Legacys, but no power bump to make it a no brainer. Why god oh why no regular black interior like the Sti limited? No choices for interior or exterior colors. Why isn't auto dimming mirror standard? It is on the Sti Limited. 18" tires in a wierd size is going to be expensive when it comes time to get new tires. B9 = no HID's Only STI gets HID's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockerGT Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 No, it is because the spec.B has the 6MT If you want performance on the AutoX course, I wouldn't touch the 6spd. Having to make an extra shift where the LGT doesn't on some courses hurts. The spec.B is a better base because of things like wider, stickier tires So you want to keep heavy 18x7 wheels with 215/45/18? I'll take a set of much lighter wheels that are 18x8 with 245/35/18s instead. SI Drive All 07 LGT models have SI Drive. To make the LGT spec.B spec, it would cost MORE The only thing that interests me from the Spec B are the seats, but I'd be perfectly happy with no alcantara inserts. Dollar for dollar, the spec.B will be faster for cheaper. This is not like comparing the WRX TR to the WRX, this is comparing a WRX to a STI. You still have no LSD in the front like the STi, you dont have the same gears the STi has, you don't have DCCD, lighter glass than regular LGTs, etc. Okay, so I save 6k by getting an LGT over a Spec B. Tokico HTS w/ Pink Springs = $950 Cobb Swawbars = $380 Cusco front/rear lower arm bars = $300 Carbotech Bobcat front/rear pads = $200 SS brake lines + fluid = $150 Set of 18x8 SSR Comps (14.5lb each) w/ 245/35/18 yoko advans = $2500 Cobb catless DP = $425 AccessPort + TDC stage 2 = $750 I guarantee you that the LGT will be faster, handle better, and stop better than the Spec B and I still have $300 left over for misc interior bling. If you want to argue stock for stock, sure I'll give the edge to the Spec B, but no one comes to LGT.com and keeps their car stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneycanuk Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Okay, so I save 6k by getting an LGT over a Spec B. Tokico HTS w/ Pink Springs = $950 Cobb Swawbars = $380 Cusco front/rear lower arm bars = $300 Carbotech Bobcat front/rear pads = $200 SS brake lines + fluid = $150 Set of 18x8 SSR Comps (14.5lb each) w/ 245/35/18 yoko advans = $2500 Cobb catless DP = $425 AccessPort + TDC stage 2 = $750 I guarantee you that the LGT will be faster, handle better, and stop better than the Spec B and I still have $300 left over for misc interior bling. Do not forget to factor in the cost of installation and reliability/warranty issues. And, lest we forget ye mighty Torsen rear differential on the Spec B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockerGT Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Do not forget to factor in the cost of installation and reliability/warranty issues. And, lest we forget ye mighty Torsen rear differential on the Spec B. Xenonk never had problems tracking/AutoX with the viscous diff in his LGT and the Torsen is considered to be worse in the snow/offroad than the viscous diff. Ive installed all the parts on my car (most listed on there except the Cobb swaybars, using Cusco rear instead and no front arm bar). My dealer hasn't given me any troubles for my suspension work, so Im not worried and if they do, I know the responsibilities of modding and I will fix it out of pocket if something does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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