Tuner questions

[bosco]

1. why will other cars support minor mods/upgrades and my LGT won't w/o a reflash/AP? ie. Hot Rod sept. 06 Test and Tune, pg.151/152, 3 mods. throttle body,cold air, and cross pipe. no reflash. stock 266hp, modded 297hp

 

2. why would Subaru/Spt make an intake that would cause a problem with the computer?

 

3. why can't the SPT be tuned properly and the k&N can? find it hard to believe aftermarket manufacturers would put more R&D into their units than Subaru.

 

4. if the SPT intake can be put on a stock car and the computer will adjust for it how come i need to have my car tuned? (AP stage 2 93) i can understand a major upgrade in mods but won't the ECU adjust for SPT intake? does it flow that much more? you would think there has to be some leeway in it's maps to compensate for miles/wear/conditions/atittude

 

5. do i have to get retuned if i install a larger TMIC with my AP at stage 2?

 

6. are there any books/publications were one can find detailed info on tuning a turbo car? the forums are to vague on the subject or they take it you already know this.

 

7. anyone recommend a "tuner" in the Chicago area and have you had YOUR car tuned there? i know you can get e-tunes from TDC and others but i don't have access to a Windows computer. i would like to send my AP to one of them and have them load it but they don't seem interrested. yes i would pay both shipping costs. money is not an issue getting it right is.

 

thank you for your time. bosco

[jim1969]

Isn't Jorge (Riftswrx at nasioc) in Chicago? He's supposedly very good.

[rao]

1. why will other cars support minor mods/upgrades and my LGT won't w/o a reflash/AP? ie. Hot Rod sept. 06 Test and Tune, pg.151/152, 3 mods. throttle body,cold air, and cross pipe. no reflash. stock 266hp, modded 297hp

 

2. why would Subaru/Spt make an intake that would cause a problem with the computer?

 

3. why can't the SPT be tuned properly and the k&N can? find it hard to believe aftermarket manufacturers would put more R&D into their units than Subaru.

 

4. if the SPT intake can be put on a stock car and the computer will adjust for it how come i need to have my car tuned? (AP stage 2 93) i can understand a major upgrade in mods but won't the ECU adjust for SPT intake? does it flow that much more? you would think there has to be some leeway in it's maps to compensate for miles/wear/conditions/atittude

 

5. do i have to get retuned if i install a larger TMIC with my AP at stage 2?

 

6. are there any books/publications were one can find detailed info on tuning a turbo car? the forums are to vague on the subject or they take it you already know this.

 

7. anyone recommend a "tuner" in the Chicago area and have you had YOUR car tuned there? i know you can get e-tunes from TDC and others but i don't have access to a Windows computer. i would like to send my AP to one of them and have them load it but they don't seem interrested. yes i would pay both shipping costs. money is not an issue getting it right is.

 

thank you for your time. bosco

 

 

1. The Legacy can support minor mods without a reflash.

2. You'd have to ask them, but the intakes do not always cause a problem or always cause a material problem.

3. That is not true.

4. You do not need a reflash.

5. No.

6. Lots - start with some of the Ford eec-iv books, the baiscs are the same

7. Jorge - search on nabisco. He does a nice job at a good price.

 

The key is to stop reading the forums

 

If you want a mail order tune (which is not a bad way to go at all), I am sure someone in North Central would help you out.

[lookslikeanevo]

1. the lgt will support it, you just get a lot mroe out of the part when it is properly tuned for it.

2. they didnt, the ECu is padded eough to add any intake without harming anything...

3. who said that the spt couldnt be tuned properly?

4. again you dont need your car tuned for just an intake...no one ever says that, and if they did then i wouldnt take any mroe of their advice...however...you will get more out of an intake if you are tuned for it...

5. no, but then again, you will get more out of the bigger tmic with a better tune

6. i have no idea...forums are not vague, its actually pretty straight forward...

7. i dont know

but you pretty much asked the same damn question over and over, and you cant tell me that you searched, cus you would be filling yourself with bs...do some legwork....all the info i posted i got from the THIS SITE...imagin that

stop being lazy

[bosco]

1. the lgt will support it, you just get a lot mroe out of the part when it is properly tuned for it.

2. they didnt, the ECu is padded eough to add any intake without harming anything...

3. who said that the spt couldnt be tuned properly?

4. again you dont need your car tuned for just an intake...no one ever says that, and if they did then i wouldnt take any mroe of their advice...however...you will get more out of an intake if you are tuned for it...

5. no, but then again, you will get more out of the bigger tmic with a better tune

6. i have no idea...forums are not vague, its actually pretty straight forward...

7. i dont know

but you pretty much asked the same damn question over and over, and you cant tell me that you searched, cus you would be filling yourself with bs...do some legwork....all the info i posted i got from the THIS SITE...imagin that

stop being lazy

first off i have searched the forum and keep getting all kinds of different answers. second TDC is saying that another trusted tuner is having trouble with it. third if you think that was the same question over and over you need to get off the forum and go back to school. anyway thanks for your BS help hope i can do the same for you. bosco

[bosco]

jim1969 and rao. thank you for you mature answers. bosco

[jim1969]

no problem. look up jorge. I would if I was in your locale. http://legacygt.com/forums/turbo-powertrains-2-0gt/20605-protuned-jorge.html?highlight=jorge

[Deer Killer]

1. why will other cars support minor mods/upgrades and my LGT won't w/o a reflash/AP? ie. Hot Rod sept. 06 Test and Tune, pg.151/152, 3 mods. throttle body,cold air, and cross pipe. no reflash. stock 266hp, modded 297hp

They don't support it. Any car with a modern ECU does not. There are no needles to set, no knobs to turn, timing or boost to adjust (correctly). This is what you are paying for an AP for. It's sort of like a german brand making such a horrid over-engineered contraption that they need to make a specialized tool to deal with that they will charge you an arm and a leg for. Yet, you can't even buy this tool from subaru.

 

Car enthusiasts should be pissed off, petitioning, and generally making a loud noise, but I suppose they aren't smart enough. (Ducks for spoiled vegetables)

[lookslikeanevo]

first off i have searched the forum and keep getting all kinds of different answers. second TDC is saying that another trusted tuner is having trouble with it. third if you think that was the same question over and over you need to get off the forum and go back to school. anyway thanks for your BS help hope i can do the same for you. bosco

 

you first complain the the forum is too vague to find answers...

 

i answered all your questions with no bs...but guess what, all the answers i gave you came from this forum, so i had to have found them the other way right?

 

so you didnt asn the same questions to the t but they were pretty much on the same line of thought...

 

on any forum your gonna get all kinds of answers... thats kinda why you keep reading, hell i have been reading for the past week on break upgrades alone, and i havent yet started a thread...there's mroe than enough info out there...

[TSiWRX]

Brothers rao, lookslikeanevo, and jim1969 have already got most things covered, so I'm just gonna add my 2-cents, for what it's worth. To make things easy, I'll just quote from rao's posting.....

 

1. The Legacy can support minor mods without a reflash.

 

^ Agreed. As long as the tuner/owner knows what they're doing and can monitor critical parameters properly, "mechanical/hardware"-only upgrades can carry the LGT quite a far way.

 

3. That is not true.

 

^ Agreed. So far, TDC has said that "it's not looking good," but that in no way implies that they (or any other competent tuner) are not able to compensate for this intake's behavior.

 

Look at the Perrin Short Ram as another example.

 

Additionally, TDC themselves admit that the data for the SPT intake is "preliminary" in nature, and comes from a secondary source.

 

Also, you need to realize that with an otherwise stock vehicle (or one with even the now defunct "Power Pack" - i.e. intake + SPT exhaust), the SPT intake will do just fine - and will not compromise the vehicle.

 

So, of course, this ties-in to question number 4. It's when you combine the intake with an *AFTERMARKET TUNE* that potential problems may crop up.

 

Will you "need" an reflash/custom-tune of your AFTERMARKET ENGINE MANAGEMENT/TUNE with the addition of such an intake? That's again impossible to say - the potential for problems is there as you're adding another variable, and that is what you have to keep in-mind.

 

5. No.

 

^ Agreed.

 

It'll do just fine without the reflash, but to take full advantage of its capabilities, the only way to extract that would be with a custom tune.

 

One note, though, is that there have been a couple of members who've run an upgraded TMIC (specifically, the Perrin unit) who have reported detonation under certain load conditions - this was later corrected for with a custom tune. But again, this is just as much an unique-vehicle (i.e. "your" LGT vs. "mine") as anything else, so no, a custom tune is not a "need" but is instead a consideration.

 

 

The key is to stop reading the forums

 

Yeah, exactly - stop just "reading" page after page after page, and actually digest the stuff that you read. It all makes sense once you stop to think about it.

 

[rc0032]

6. are there any books/publications were one can find detailed info on tuning a turbo car? the forums are to vague on the subject or they take it you already know this.

+1 with what ROA said. If there were publications there would not be a need for people like TDC and everyone would do it themselves. The best is to find someone who knows what they are doing and take him on as a mentor and read the Ford eec-iv books. I borrowed one from Rob and while it’s a little dry to read it’s helpful. From what I understand (I’m starting to selftune shortly) there really aren’t that many parameters you want to change its just a mater of finding the right combination.

 

 

edit: and with the recent price drop in the Streettuner this is the way to go

[captainmorgan]

Seriously, just call P&L and get an appointment with Jorge. It's the best mod you'll ever get!

[rony]

Jorge at P&L Motorsports protuned my car, I'm very happy with the results.

[jagcars26]

Bosco

Jorge has a great rep,if you can, get it tuned by him.

Jorge flew here(Md )and tuned a bunch of cars with the AP,,I heard of no complaints from people I trusted. Only good things.

FWIW,He also does a hell of a job with utecs as well I'm told.

Bottom line,I'd trust Jorge to tune my car:icon_cool

[Deer Killer]

+1 with what ROA said. If there were publications there would not be a need for people like TDC and everyone would do it themselves. The best is to find someone who knows what they are doing and take him on as a mentor and read the Ford eec-iv books. I borrowed one from Rob and while it’s a little dry to read it’s helpful. From what I understand (I’m starting to selftune shortly) there really aren’t that many parameters you want to change its just a mater of finding the right combination.

 

 

edit: and with the recent price drop in the Streettuner this is the way to go

Sure there are, they are just in engineering-speak. There will be lots of complex equations, etc. The question is do you want to have a engineering development effort on your own car or prefer to have someone get it "close enough". Yes, you are basically re-engineering your car when you retune it. You must take it on faith that the person you paid to do it actually knows how to do it. Most of the time even then I suspect it's from empirical and yet sometimes anecdotal experience. From what I have learned so far there is interaction between maps that is probably taken into account by Denso's tuning programs but I have never seen anyone in the aftermarket talk about, so I must assume it is missed. Emergent behavior usually is.

[bosco]

i'll be calling P&L next week. thanks for the help. will let forum know the outcome. bosco

[bosco]

update. called P&L talked to Bailey, car to tuned by Jorge on 7-31-06 then i won't have ask anymore questions about tuning and can get on with my life. lol bosco

[jim1969]

post up your results. good luck.

[NYtoVT]

Not to jack the end of the thread, but I have the same request for a good rep tuner in the North East/ New England areas. Any recommendations? I'm bone stock now.

[jim1969]

TDC in NH FTW.

[crazyjay1089]

im new to the forum and modding my LGT.

 

How far can you go with mechanical/hardware upgrades before you need to reflash?

[TSiWRX]

Full exhaust-side modifications, including the UP and DP, headers or ported&polished stock manifolds....basically anything short of the turbo itself, is possible. Known CELs can be "defeated" with various "hard fixes."

 

On the intake side, an aftermarket intake is typically "safe" as long as it's the sole mod - but since you're on stock EM, you're going to see most of your gains with exhaust-side mods, anyway, so this would be a rather decent trade-off, in not running an aftermarket intake.

 

A a full-recirc (or, if driveability can be sacrificed, 50/50-vent) aftermarket BOV should not present a problem.

 

You should also be able to run an aftermarket TMIC with no issues.

 

If you have the ability to datalog and the knowledge to interpret the results properly, the addition of some form of manual boost controller, should allow you to increase boost safely to between 15 and 17 PSI.

 

Most of your power gains as well as driveability increases will, however, come from the reflash. As such, many of us approach upgrades with the purchase, first, of the AccessPORT/ECUTek EasyEcu - and then pursue hardware upgrades and reflash concurrently to "increase power" thereafter.

[05BluePearlGT]

I have an AEM CAI. I ran it for about 8000 miles untuned. My car pulled nice, ran nice, sounded good. No stuttering, falling on its ass, etc, like everybody said it would, When I added a DP, Im sure the a/f was terrible, as well as EGTs. I was tuned first thing in the morning after the night I installed the intake. So I only drove to the tuner, SLOWLY with both on.

 

But yeah, subies can handle an intake untuned, if thats the only engine mod you have. Once you flow any more air in or out or your engine, GET IT TUNED IMMEDIATELY. But stock, you are good to go, IMO. My car pulls hella hard now at 17.5psi, the intake and shorty DP.

[David Cayo]

im new here and i have a o5 lgt auto .I ordered a stg 1.Im thinking of getting a down pipe if i get a down pip do i have to get a up pipe also or is it allright to install a down pipe with out a up pipe.

[93formula]

I ran for a long time with an intake, uppipe, downpipe, front mount, and boost controller and the car ran great. I did that for about 14000 miles with every thing and nearly 17 with the up dp bc and intake. The only reason I reflashed was to raise the rev limiter and take the cat check engine codes out. The car runs way better than a Stg 2 cobb does (nearly identical cars typical cobb stg 2 with full turboback and my car) about 5-7 cars and then switched drivers and still around 3-4 cars. This saying that you have to have a tune is a myth as long as you datalog and are VERY VERY CAREFUL. That being said if you are not willing to risk the faint possiblity then don't even try it.