Mach5 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 This is not a posting intended to raise anyone's ire. I am thinking very seriously about getting a 2005 Legacy i Ltd. For me a big selling point is the all-wheel drive as winters in the Midwest can be tough. While reading, I came across this piece: /auto.consumerguide.com/auto/editorial/imho/index.cfm/act/opinion30 Here is a quote: [i]Some options like electronic stability control, side-impact airbags, side-curtain airbags, and antilock brakes are safety features that truly help you avoid accidents or reduce your chance of serious injury when you are in an accident. All-wheel drive is not one of those options. Simply put, all-wheel drive spreads the engine's power out to each of the four wheels. This makes all-wheel-drive cars less likely to get stuck in snow and mud. But does it enhance the vehicle's ability to stay on an icy road? Can it help the car stop more quickly? No. In an extreme example, giving a 300-horsepower luxury sedan all-wheel drive is akin to shortening the fuse on a bomb. You see, all-wheel drive allows the operator to get up to speed much more quickly than they might have with two-wheel drive. It doesn't help them stop any faster. It doesn't help a driver avoid going off the road in a turn. And, it doesn't lessen a driver's chance of getting into an accident. Body-shop repair techs should rejoice knowing there are a whole bunch of luxury-sedan buyers out there going a whole lot faster than they should.[/i] What surprised me was the statement that AWD does not help a car stay on an icy road. I would appreciate some input on this piece. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLoo Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I think the article makes a very valid point, there are huge misconceptions in the public about what all-wheel drive really is and what it can and cannot do. Plus, there are so many variants of these systems developped by multiple manufacturers of such systems and implemented differently on models/makes. For instance Volvo's Haldex that is installed on the V70 acts very differently than Subaru's VTD AWD on the Legacy GT 5EAT. 2005 Legacy GT Wagon Ltd 5EAT Garnet Red 1999 GTI VR6 Black - sold but not forgotten... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedeck Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Having all wheel drive does not magically make people invincible. Some will learn this the hard way, and other's will just heed the warning, and take it easy, when conditions are not as good as a clean, sunny, 90 degree day. Yes, AWD will help you accelerate on snow, but will it help you stop? No. It's not made for that...the TIRES are a really good factor in determining how quickly one will stop, in inclement weather. Thus, most people WILL get rid of the RE-92's that come stock on the Legacy...only because those that have been akin to them on previous vehicles (WRX for example) know what they are all about. They are M+S rated tires...but they don't really work well for anything. Yet, you can still get a year or so out of them, before getting rid of them. My advice, AWD is great when conditions require it. AWD provides balance, stability, and acceleration. Yet, the driver is the one in control! Take it slow, and you shoud be all good...and remember, that AWD does NOT = invincibility! Later, and I hope this helped. i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 AWD iis only good if you know how to use it. There have been situation where awd has gotten me out of situations such as getting sideways in the snow. Apply a bit of throttle turn the wheel the appropriate direction and let the drivetrain pull you through. There are also situatons that AWD can get you into alot of trouble such as getting up to speed to fast and realizing too late that you cant stop in time. For many people I think AWD in bad weather= getting into a situation that they can't handle. You dont realize how fast you are going untill it is too late. Everybody thinks they are a WRC driver nowadays dont you know.... However given a resposible driver it is definately an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 duh.. Of course some of that only applies to an untrained driver.. Imagine an active safety system where the active part is YOU. He's obviously never seen a rally :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The article has good points, but it sounds to me that it wasn't countered with the benefits of AWD or how to use it to the proper advantage. Just like anything else, while braking a car is no-wheel-drive. Actually, that is a fallacy though because there is engine braking going to all 4 in a Subaru which [i]should[/i] have some added benefit in slowing down on the slippery stuff. Tires are still more important, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The only safety advantage I can see with Subaru AWD is when you are pulling out into traffic when the road is slippery from rain, snow, or slush. Under the same conditions, 2WD with traction control may reduce engine power and apply brakes, making you vulnerable to being rear ended or T-boned as you try to merge into traffic. Subaru also claims that AWD provides better tracking (less yaw motion) when driving on slippery roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedeck Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote name='Deer Killer']duh.. Of course some of that only applies to an untrained driver.. Imagine an active safety system where the active part is YOU. He's obviously never seen a rally :)[/quote] Well, for some, it's more of a learning curve than others. AWD is a new concept to some...as I am sure it was to others, when they got their first one. Fear, and not knowing about AWD can scare even the best of drivers. Anyway, just be careful...not everyone is a Petter Solberg. later, i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The article makes point that applies to all vehicles.....4x4, AWD, FWD, RWD. It doesnt matter how many wheels have power to them...if you hit the brakes the car is gonna slide on ice and snow. Even hummers will do this....only prob is thats a whole lot of mass. It's simple physics. (I hope they didn't spend alot on research. Regardless.....what 4x4 or AWD will do is try and prevent you from getting stuck (i.e...front or rear tires are not isolated and digging) The one thing that AWD will do is make the car more stable in inclement weather during acceleration. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The article is telling the truth. Someone on this board, or maybe it was the NASOIC board was argueing with me that AWD cars don't need Stability Control and Braking Distribution and Traction Control. He was clamoring how the R32 (which has 2 out of 3 of those things) was for pus-ies because a "real driver" doesn't need those things in an AWD car. I could only laugh. Having power go to all 4 wheels does NOT help you if you take a corner too fast and the car starts to lose control. That's what the stability control does. If an AWD car does not have stability control you can still spin out or slide into the ditch. You can still do that with stability control too, it would just be harder to do. Same goes with braking. Electronic Brake Distribution works in conjunction with ABS to adjust which wheel is getting the most braking force depending on whether the wheel has traction or not. Traction control is still a great thing on AWD cars too. An AWD car like the STI could EASILY spin all four tires on snow or ice. If it had traction control, the computer would cut the engines power and keep that from happening. Those electronic gizmos are a nuisance if you are a talented and more importantly responsible driver. But they are an absolute LIFESAVER, in those times when you've made a bad judgement call, or you NEED to do an evasive manuever to keep from having a major accident. I wish the Legacy GT has stability control as well as traction control. As long as it has a switch to be able to turn it off when going to a track, those "gizmos" are WONDERFUL things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote name='Driver72']......Traction control is still a great thing on AWD cars too. An AWD car like the STI could EASILY spin all four tires on snow or ice. If it had traction control, the computer would cut the engines power and keep that from happening...... [/quote] You can do the same thing with your right foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanoswrx Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 All those gizmos won't make up for a bad driver. just like awd wont make up for a bad driver. But AWD can help you when its raining and you have to avoid something. Or when its snowing and you have an emergency and have to get somewhere. I have driven a few cars in my life and I don't think I could ever give up awd unless I am looking for pure fun on a track where rwd would give you that rush. But on the street nothing compares. If you want better braking only one thing will really improve that over what the legacy already has and thats better tires. Tires are probably one of the biggest safety devices on the car, more then all the electronic things combined. If you want to be safe in the snow just listen to what people have to say about snow tires. If you want to be safe in the rain listen to what people have to say about high performance summer tires. Or if you really want to be safe learn to drive the car so the car doesn't have to drive for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankcal Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I think the bottom line of the article is "Don't be stupid." Over the last couple of winters, I have observed first-hand that the majority of spinout-related and rear-end highway accidents involve morons in SUVs that think they are invincible. I live near Boston and the majority of vehicles on the road are SUVs. I don't know of many dirt roads or areas requiring SUVs within the Boston area (okay, maybe some downtown roads). The majority of SUVs around here never see a dirt road, and when those drivers have a chance to "flex there muscles" they will. The advantages of AWD far exceed those of any FWD or RWD car. One example: There is a 2-3 lane highway north of Boston (Rt.1). The speed limit is 55 mph. Cars travel regularly at 75-80 mph. Although there are regular exits, every gas station, restaurant, mall, etc. spill directly out onto the highway. When it is raining or snowing, cars frequently spin out/spin their wheels leaving these driveways. AWD gets you out of these areas safely. I have driven AWD cars since I could afford to buy my own cars - 1990 Eagle Talon TSI and 1997 Audi A4. My next car will be an 05 LGT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Everybody thinks they are better than the computer nowadays... Trust me you are not. The best teachers in the skip barber racing school even admit when the shenanegans come down to it they can't beat a computer that can make a million decisons independently every second. Mistakes happen even to the best of drivers its nice to have somthing that can bail you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote name='Mach5'] What surprised me was the statement that AWD does not help a car stay on an icy road.[/quote] As many guys stated before - the tires and proper speed help the car to stay on icy road. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolbo Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Moderators have been nice enough to ask we watch our language here (at a minimum, it gives them one less time consuming headache to tend to). You could do them a favor by editing your post. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I apologize :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurpman Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 If the road is slick and you are powering out of a turn, aren't you more likely to lose the rear end (i.e. slide sideways) with RWD? The one time I drove a RWD pick-up truck, it was wet out, and I spun the truck 180 degrees coming out of a turn (thank God no cars around). I know part of the reason was the light weight of the rear of the unloaded pick-up, but wouldn't AWD be safer in that situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-2.5-GT Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 most definetly, but that doesn't mean that given a different circumstance the AWD is always going to save you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 [quote name='outahere'][quote name='Driver72']......Traction control is still a great thing on AWD cars too. An AWD car like the STI could EASILY spin all four tires on snow or ice. If it had traction control, the computer would cut the engines power and keep that from happening...... [/quote] You can do the same thing with your right foot.[/quote] Agreed. Computer controlled traction is something I'd say is beneficial to normal drivers, but enthusiast need not apply. AWD doesn't make you invincable, but I disagree with the point the author made that "AWD gets you up to speed faster so you can reck harder." Not so. Not everyone speeds around because they think AWD will save them, although I understand his primary notion. In reality AWD will help you through a turn, but only if you already understand the fundementals of driving, and in this situation, winter driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockford33 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Just to put in my $.02. The main reason I bought my LGT is for the AWD. Being an enthuiast, I understand that no matter how many wheels have power, ice is ice and if you jam on the brakes, you are going to slide. The development I recently moved into has many hills. I think I can count about 6 or 7 hills on my way to work in the first 3 miles. Some smart person decided to put stop signs or stop lights midway or at the top of these hills. Last winter, we had a bit of snow and the plowing around here sucked. Took up to 3 days before you would even see a plow come down the street. And then, sometimes all they would do is salt the road. Anyway, even with an underpowered FWD (91 Sunbird), I had a very hard time getting going after being at one of these lights. I figured the AWD will keep me from getting stuck in these situations. Does it make me invincible in the snow and ice? Certainly not, and I drive according to the weather (and watch out for those macho SUV drivers). But I do think I will have a safer drive to work (especially since my office NEVER closes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 There is cheaper solution to going uphill in snow than AWD. What tires did you have on your Sunfire ? If these were not winter tires the simple change of tires would make wonders. AWD with winter tires is even better on snow and ice. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Hmmm, a 91 FWD sunfire may only be 1WD, which even snows may not be able to cure. Not sure, definitely not on my list of cars I keep info on. :D Cheers, Paul Hansen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-2.5-GT Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Don't remind me...that car is horrible in the snow...i got rid of it to get a LGT a few weeks ago, after they broke in and stole all my stereo :( but i got the LGT now, so no sense losing any sleep over it... :D but yeah, snow tires in that car won't help...i was usually in 3rd gear before i got any traction on the slightest hill...just horrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frontrangeSubie Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 puleez....only one way to make it up our mountain road in Colorado....AWD/4WD.....Snowtires don't mean a hill of beans on a FWD car on these type roads. Mark Woodland Park, CO 8600 feet elevation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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