Engine Break IN

[agctr]

Again this really comes down to personal preference. Not a lot of owners really get a choice as they dont usually get an opportunity to get a brand new car all that often. Ive personally been lucky and have been in a postion to buy my last few straight out of the showroom. Ive always progressively run mine in. I find that my method is to go easy and then ramp it up over a time. RP seems like over the past 28 years hard breakin is standard, its just up to the user. Looks like the easy easy approach is winning on the poll though.

Ada///M.

[harrydog]

Unless you keep a car for 10 years and 150k+ miles, you won't know. I did that for one car (with religious 3K dino oil changes) and the car is still running like a champ today with 220k for the 2nd owner. That told me all I need to know about the subject.

I never run the piss out of my engines during break-in and I've kept several cars that have gone past the 150K mile mark. None of them had any noticable oil consumption, including a Honda with 216K miles on it. That tells me all I need to know.

[harrydog]

I have broken my cars in HARD over the last 28 years (since my new '78 Z28 4-speed). I could bore everyone with the details, but my cars have always been the quickest example of the particular car that I've owned. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that a hard break-in works to produce the best-running engine.

 

It works. I always run every car that I buy at the dragstrip. I have the best times that any particular model can run. Hard break-ins are the only way to go.....PERIOD.

 

That's great. I'll keep that in mind next time I buy a dragster. Most people don't run their cars at the dragstrip and lots of people like to keep their cars for as long as they can. A sensible break-in can only help an engine to live longer in my opinion. By sensible I mean letting the oil warm up completely before full throttle acceleration and high rpm (this applies even after break-in) and varying the rpm's as much as possible.

I tend to drive my cars hard, but not during break-in, most of which occurs by about 600 miles. I've had great luck with this method for many cars and many years.

[rfd425]

I never run the piss out of my engines during break-in and I've kept several cars that have gone past the 150K mile mark. None of them had any noticable oil consumption, including a Honda with 216K miles on it. That tells me all I need to know.

What it doesn't tell you is how the cars would have lasted if you had broken them in hard. Engines these days are made to last a lot longer than 150K miles. If a soft break-in will allow an engine to go for 400K miles, and a hard break-in will shorten the life to 350K, but result in a stronger-running engine, I'll choose the latter option.

[agctr]

rfd, could you imagine the terms and conditions on any engine mgf giving that putting warranty to that.... imagine if you could do warranty on 350K, I can just see the out clauses by Subaru now,

 

1. did u drive in snowy conditions.. out

2. did u allow the oil to heat to 105F for exactly 2.15 mins prior to departure

3. on arrival at your destination, did u wrap a blanket around the engine to keep it warm..... lol.

 

And it would be like 1000 pages long and u need a 2 year old to give you the low down.....

However, I do agree with you, if they were able to provide information like that on engine expiry, it would be amazingly helpful and may even assist with the sale of 2nd hand vehicles. Bit like on trucks and forklifts where they are run in Hours rather than miles.

Ada///M.

[harrydog]

What it doesn't tell you is how the cars would have lasted if you had broken them in hard. Engines these days are made to last a lot longer than 150K miles. If a soft break-in will allow an engine to go for 400K miles, and a hard break-in will shorten the life to 350K, but result in a stronger-running engine, I'll choose the latter option.

Well, there is really no way of knowing how long engine "A" and "B" will last. That's pure speculation. And I'm not even convinced that breaking it in like you stole it makes the engine run stronger. The internet is full of "information" which is not true.

The main reason an engine might run "stronger" is if it has more compression, which would come from a better seal between the cylinder and the compression rings. Running the engine like you stole it right from the get go would trend to overheat the ring/cylinder wall contact area and could cause glazing which would reduce ring seal. The break-in procedure recommended by most manufacturers is solely to promote good wear-in of this contact area.

If some people are happy with the results from running it really hard during break-in, great for them.

[rporter]

That's one nice 1/4 mile time!

 

How did you launch? What was the weather?

 

Basic info is in the 1320 List post:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=345481&postcount=2

 

It was warmer than predicted (low 50s). Launch is in the 4,500 range (I haven't found it to matter in the 4-5K range). It just takes practice to get the launch down. It takes me 4-5 runs each time I go out to get "in the groove".

[rporter]

That's great. I'll keep that in mind next time I buy a dragster. Most people don't run their cars at the dragstrip and lots of people like to keep their cars for as long as they can. A sensible break-in can only help an engine to live longer in my opinion.

 

This is why these arguments about break-in and what oil to use are basically urinating in the wind. A FEW folks here will keep their cars for 5-7-10 years, with well over 100K. I'll bet it's no moe than 5%. The rest will be selling/trading the car in less than 5 years.

 

To me a sensible break-in was redlinng the engine in 1st and 2nd as I pulled out of the dealership. Over 10 years and 150-200K+ miles, there are a lot of other factors that affect longevity. And, from what I've seen with the 7K redline SHO engines, and also 911 engines that regularly go over 200K, driving like grandma does not show to have any appreciable effect on longevity.

[rfd425]

harrydog and Ada///m, all I'm saying is that engines are built a lot better than they used to be, and they last a lot longer. In most cases, these engines will still be working when the cars go out of service for whatever reason. And despite the fact that engines are built a lot stronger these days, recommended break-in procedures are the same as they were 20 years ago.

 

So, all I'm saying is that if you think you're extending the life of your engine by breaking it in softly, the truth is that the engine is probably going to outlast the rest of the car, either way. And, there seems to be empirical evidence that the engines run stronger if they are run harder early on. You can dispute this all you want, but there seems to be a trend that the people with faster cars initially broke them in harder.

 

edit: the bottom line, though, is you should do what you want to do with your car.

[agctr]

rfd, wasnt having a go at all, I think yr logic makes perfect sense and totally agree with your last line. It comes down to commonsense too. Run yr engine in extremley hard and U may have issues BUT.... if you go too easy on yr engine U also may have issues.

Ada///M.

[Ed_T]

Killed it quickly..within a couple hundred miles or so. I notice NO oil consumption at all at my 5,500 mile oil changes. My average mpg around town is 22, on the highway it sits around 31..both figures are by computer avg. I'm also Stg 2. Car runs smooth and has no problems.

 

Canadian gallons?

[agctr]

That is a HUGE MPG return..... then again it is the Canadian Rockies,......

Ada///M.

[harrydog]

And, from what I've seen with the 7K redline SHO engines, and also 911 engines that regularly go over 200K, driving like grandma does not show to have any appreciable effect on longevity.

But I never said you should "drive like a grandma", even during break-in. And redlining the engine on a regular basis isn't a problem either, once the engine is broken in. I drive my cars hard.

Why do manufacturers bother to have a specific break-in procedure for their cars if it makes no difference at all? Everything that I buy that has an engine seems to have a specific break-in procedure. My 2-cycle chain saw, blowers and trimmers do. My John Deere tractor does. My snowblower does. Even my air compressor does. There is a reason for this.

But we are all free to do what we think is best. Ain't this a great country?

[Ed_T]

But I never said you should "drive like a grandma", even during break-in. And redlining the engine on a regular basis isn't a problem either, once the engine is broken in. I drive my cars hard.

 

How does a performance engine ever break in unless it's pushed hard? I think the point is that a gentle break-in is not really a break-in, and that optimal tolerances won't be achieved unless the engine is romped early on?

 

Just wondering here.

 

As a point: pre-smog big-block Pontiac performance engines were notoriously "tight" from the factory, and would not deliver basically until they had the sh!t pounded out of them. Literally.

 

I don't think 'tight' is a problem with the 2.5's, but it can't hurt to get the best tolerances. Any volunteers to have their engines torn down?

[schwinn]

I think the mototune website gives some great evidence to show that riding hard doesn't hurt anything, and, in fact, can be good. What more evidence do you need? I mean, there are teardowns, and performance wins by running hard on multiple engines, so it's not just a one-off datapoint.

 

Why are there breakin procedures? Probably because if something were drastically wrong, the average person wouldn't notice it on the first startup (what's that clattering noise?) and in such situations, driving hard could damage the engine, or, more importantly, hurt the owner. So, the lawyers get in and say "break it in slowly".

 

In addition, I have heard that most engine builders today perform breakin/post-assembly testing on the engines before they are even installed. So, "break in" has already happened, and is irrelevant in the car when the owner gets it.

 

Alternatively, it could just be a holdover from the old days of break-in oils and much looser toleranced engines, and lower overall assembly qualities. However, just because "that's how it was always done" doesn't mean it can't be done better.

[agctr]

Good point schwinn,

 

AMG for example put 5K Miles on each engine prior to delivery.

I think its more than just the engine that goes thru breakin though.

It has to do with the tranny, suspension, brakes and alike. Engine breakin is important but dont forget about the stresses throughout the entire chassis.

Ada///M.

[bosco]

i remember reading in hot rod that bringing an engine from a cold start to operating temp over x number of cycles does more to break in an engine than does easy or hard running, they said there is little wear on an engine once at temp, everything is riding on a film of oil, bosco

[agctr]

Subaru Australia uses Magnatec Castrol oil to assist with cold starts. Unsure what engines they were talking about in a hot rod mag unless they were reflecting on all engines.

Ada///M.

[bosco]

hot rod refered to all engines, they said when an engine first starts from cold(ambient) to operating temp, numerous cycles, when engine is cold there is more wear at start up (only residual oil film, more metal contact), when running at operating temp parts are on pressurized oil surface, little or no contact, this is just a thought but what machine i.e. end loader, back hoe, lawn mower etc. needs break-in, people that buy these run the hell out of them from the start, bosco mototune might be on to something

[2006Specb122]

Well... there has been lots of discussion on this.

 

By the time I read through it all I was tired of hearing about break ins.

 

I'm going to post mine anyways.

 

I bought thec ar with 9 miles on it.

 

I drove it fairly conservatively for the first 1000 miles. Let it warm up, let it cool down. Tried to stay under 4k for the most part.

 

However, after the 1000 mile mark I drove it like I stole it and tonight for the first time I may not have let it warm up for a long time and right out of the gate I rode it all the way to redline. Took off out of my driveway and had it to 60mph by the time I hit the stop sign down the street. Someone said "was that 0-60?" I simply replied. "FIVE POINT ONE".... thanks R&T

 

I guess everyone on that street knows whats up now.

 

I won't be doing that after I hit Stage2 full exhaust next month.

 

 

I heard some discussion on waiting for mods. I agree with the two points made. Wait till you know the power and level of performance of the motor and wait to make sure you won't be taking it to the dealer anytime soon.

 

I don't know if I can wait much longer as I already have all my initial mods picked out. READY TO INSTALL!!!!

 

UP,DP,CBE,STAGE 2 AP.

 

 

By the way... the story above was copletely fabricated and I would never do anyting illegally.

 

[agctr]

Thanks Bosco....

 

Thanks for posing up 2006....... refering to yr last sentence... yeah right.

Ada///M.

[agctr]

Well I have to say that I am seriously in the first category of this poll. I have now almost 1K on the clock and have only really run the engine to 5K on a few occasions. Im just taking it easy but mindful that the engine does need a few frequent bursts to keep everything ticking over nicely. 1st oil change at 2K.

Ada///M.

[Marvin McConoughey]

Arguments for the soft break-in include: 1) Engines are mass produced within large allowable limits, and even larger violations of official limits, including journal smoothness, piston size and finish, cylinder bore size, bearing clearances, etc. Some engines happen to leave the factory with interference fit between pistons and cylinders. For reference, see latest Subaru Service Manual for 3.6R engine. 2) Ultimate engine life is of little concern to most owners, who will sell before engine wear-out. But many owners desire a quiet engine without unwanted ticks, knocks, clicks, etc. Reducing wear, new and old engines, helps keep the engine sounding like the precision machine that it should be. 3) Soft break-in is a low-risk approach because metal is not being stressed to high levels, oil film thickness on bearings is greater, and metal temperatures are low to moderate. 4) High speed engine operation increases the chances that oil flow through the oil filter will exceed filter flow capacity and thus go through the bypass valve. Doing so exposes the tight new engine clearances to whatever debris happens to be in the oil pan. New engines tend to have greater wear debris due to the break-in process. Soft break-in takes full advantage of the oil filter's filtering capacity. 5) Filters tend to filter best at less-than maximum flow capacity. Dirt carry-through is less, and oil velocities, thus particle inertial mass, is less. 6. Factory oil is good quality, else the factory would not use it. But the best aftermarket oils are better, and offer enhanced qualities for after-break-in hard driving. 7. Timing chains are high-precision, high-stress parts that yet must develop the matched finish that comes only with usage. High RPM new-engine operation subjects the timing chain to the additional stress of high centrifugal force. Since timing chain replacement is a frequent maintenance item in car engines, making this part last longer is of value. Some Subaru engines do have other than chain type timing drives. The fact that many people do fast, harsh, break-ins is a tribute to the engine manufacturers' high level of average quality.

 

Background: I was once a supervisor of aircraft quality control, a very long time ago. We ran up each new reciprocating aircraft engine on a test stand. Some engines would fail during the run. For us, pilot safety justified the extreme break-in. Even then many things were constantly monitored: oil temperature, cylinder head temperature, etc. We probably lost some engines that would have been fine given a less stressful initial operation.