Drakuun Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Some notes- I get my oil changed about every 7,000 miles. (Mobile 1 5w-30) I have ZERO consumption issues below that, but over that 7,000 is when the oil starts breaking down, but not at an alarming rate or anything. She just starts getting more 'knocky' than usual. Only issue I had with my motor was a coolant seep between the block and the head, and that was propmtly fixed by adding some of Subaru's Cooling system conditioner to the system. I also smoothed out my Snorkus (removed the air traps etc) and I love it because my motor is starting to sound like that STi that Solburg was beating in that Promo vid that was floating around here for a while- sounds like a chainsaw when I stick the accelerator through the floor and she gets all wound up. I LUV it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rporter Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Some notes- I get my oil changed about every 7,000 miles. (Mobile 1 5w-30) I have ZERO consumption issues below that, but over that 7,000 is when the oil starts breaking down, but not at an alarming rate or anything. She just starts getting more 'knocky' than usual. Only issue I had with my motor was a coolant seep between the block and the head, and that was propmtly fixed by adding some of Subaru's Cooling system conditioner to the system. You had a head gasket leak, and just used conditioner to block it? Sounds like bad news to me!! If it's under warranty, I would be paying Subaru a visit!! I would expect a non-turbo engine to be easier on consumption, plus for folks that don't drive the car the way that I do. What I learned in the past is that there are a lot of folks with perf engines who really don't run high rpm very often. I observe the "2K Rule" when cruising (always stay in a gear that keeps rpm no lower than 2K), plus I have observed, over the last day, that I virtually never do a 1-2 shift under 4K, as well as most 2-3 shifts, plus all of the redline runs. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintinet Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I'm getting an AP for the 05 LGT MT Wagon I'm getting (hopefully ready tomorrow or Tuesday). Any reason to wait till after the break in period to go to stage I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rporter Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I'm getting an AP for the 05 LGT MT Wagon I'm getting (hopefully ready tomorrow or Tuesday). Any reason to wait till after the break in period to go to stage I? No. But the car runs better after it's fully broken-in at 10K miles. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintinet Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Rings true. My 02 WRX seemed to just get better and better with age. It was hard to part with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakuun Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Rporter: Seep, not leak. I believe it was even the subject of a TSB Recall, for which the fix was the conditioner. It only seeped under 40 degrees anyways, temp over that and no seep at all. If it had kept seeping after- I would'a taken it in. Been a good 2 months and I haven't smelt coolant since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfd425 Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I disagree, that amount of oil is seriously a major concern. My MY01 goes in for a service ever 7.5Miles and never gets oil inbetween. Ada///M. Um unsure when u get yr Subaru serviced, but mine goes in as recommended by the service book! Ada///M. Interesting; my manual says it needs service every 7,500 miles, not every 7.5 miles, but perhaps the recommendation is different for Australian conditions. I'm getting an AP for the 05 LGT MT Wagon I'm getting (hopefully ready tomorrow or Tuesday). Any reason to wait till after the break in period to go to stage I? I would wait a few thousand miles for a couple of reasons. First, if there is anything wrong with your car right out of the box, having a stage 1 tune may complicate the warranty process (I know the reflash doesn't automatically void the warranty, but depending on what the issue is, it may cause you more headaches when making a warranty claim). Second, by getting used to the car's stock power delivery, you will have a better sense of how much gain you are really getting from the stage 1 tune. Third, while I don't necessarily believe you need to follow the recommended break-in procedure to a tee, I do think that you need to pay more attention to how you drive it in the first thousand miles (e.g. making sure it is properly warmed up before exceeding 4K rpm). So, you wouldn't be getting the most out of the stage 1 at that point anyway. As for the poll this thread is about, I bought my car with 900 miles on it already, so I pretty much just drove it like I stole it right off. If I were going to buy another new LGT, I would probably baby it for 200 miles, then mostly keep it under 4K rpm, but do occasional controlled, properly warmed up runs to 6K+ until I got to 1,000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 Hmm do I really have to answer that? I think NOT. Ada///M. PS Agree with the rest of what u said though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rporter Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Rporter: Seep, not leak. I believe it was even the subject of a TSB Recall, for which the fix was the conditioner. It only seeped under 40 degrees anyways, temp over that and no seep at all. If it had kept seeping after- I would'a taken it in. Been a good 2 months and I haven't smelt coolant since. I dunno, seep = leak to me! The head gasket has been compromised at that point. As long as the conditioner is refreshed every now and then, I suppose it's OK, but better hang on to that paperwork. I would like to think that they would at least check the head bolt torque at that point, but it doesn't sound like they did. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakuun Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Ron: I did quite a bit of research on it- and in 98% of cases reported that I could find- they all played the same- seep fixed by conditioner as directed by the dealership. Found 3 cases to my recollection from owners who had issues beyond that, in each case SoA or the Dealership corrected the issue beyond the conditioner. Worst case was a guy who had his piston & valve's replaced in the affected cyclinder. This was an especially prevalent issue on the older 2.5's starting back in the mid 90's but had been signifigantly curbed in the manufacturing process by the early 2k's with sporadic reports. Why I call it a seep- Because unless it was under 40 degrees I never 'lost' coolant to a degree that it was even noticeable. The first two months it was under 40 degrees here in Mich was the only time I ever -lost- coolant visibly in the resivour. Since the addative- nothing lost. Main reason I didn't let them mess with the Block is well- I'm way more nervous about letting them mess with that stuff then the amount of coolant I was loosing to this seep. Last time a mechanic touched my vehicles block and head- I had it in the shop every 20,000 miles there after because some damned thing had started leaking or broken, or warped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deneb Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I'm undecided. I broke mine in relatively gently, staying under 4.5k rpm for the first 1k miles, but did go 1/3 to 1/2 throttle at times. However, I have yet to see any scientific data to support either break in method. My .02: follow the manual to prevent any possible warranty issues (owner: My car is burning mucho oil. Dealer: Did you break it in according to the manual? Owner: uhhhh...). In reality, I'm not convinced either method is 'better' than the other, it's quite likely that our motors are broken in within a few hundred miles regardless of how it's driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deneb Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Here's an interesting tidbit gleaned from another thread. More fuel for the fire I guess. (Note the text in bold) Here are the comments from a GM engineer I was lucky enough to speak with. Nice guy and had some great things to say about this topic. quote: Some oil consumption is of absolutely no concern to me, personally. Niether is it a concern to the engineers that design and develop them. Mostly it is just an inconvenience (having to add oil occasionally). Only car owners seem to be upset by oil consumption. I think most people's analysis of "why engines burn oil" is based on the (false) idea that an engine shouldn't burn ANY oil and if it does burn some oil then something "must" be wrong and they invent all sorts of logic to explain why it happened. Most all of it is nonsense. Occasionaly use of full throttle and high RPM is the easy, simple and fun way to eliminate deposits and keep the combustion chambers clean. Most high output engines will always use some amount of oil as keeping the top rings lubricated at high loads and high RPM is impossible without loosing some oil past the rings. Plus, multivalve engines need to keep all those valve guides/stems lubricated and that is only accomplished with "total loss" oiling. I doubt seriously that breakin or anything else would have affected the oil consumption. Provide a dose of high RPM WOT accelerations as often as practical to keep the chambers clean and the rings moving and free on the pistons. Many engines have very aggressive cylinder wall finishes to maintain oil on the cylinder walls to keep the rings lubricated at high specific power levels. This often leads to high oil consumption and variable oil consumption from engine to engine. None of them are "good" or "bad" ..... just some of them use more oil than others. If the engine is not smoking I would say that the oil consumption (no matter how high it is) is fine and that nothing is wrong. If the engine suddenly starts to smoke and use oil then something obviously changed or failed but low levels of oil consumption are perfectly accecptable. BMW had such high oil consumption on some of their M engines that they caution to check the oil at EVERY fillup on the autobahn type driving as the engine can run low on oil in a slightly longer interval. They actually replaced engines that failed from oil starvation due to the high rate of oil consumption that was "normal" due to the aggresive cylinder wall finish and low tension ring pack. The fits and finishes in most production engines these days means "breakin" is pretty much a non issue. I have seen many engines torn down that were broken in in different ways from full throttle operation instantly to gentle driving to no particular breakin at all. They all look fine. The one thing you usually want to avoid immediately with a new, high performanc engine is revving it to the redline and holding it there. The oil filter will almost always be bypassing to some extent at the oil flow at high RPM and any debris generated during breakin will bypass the filter and end up in the bearings. If the cylinder walls are a cast iron material (either a cast iron block or inserted aluminum block) this means that the cast iron scraped off the cylinder walls during the first few minutes of operation needs to be trapped by the oil filter. Cast iron in the bearings is not good. The high RPM would not hurt the cylinder walls at all but the debris needs to be caught by the filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 Interesting post to say the least and some very valid points there. I suppose the level of concern also comes from why with the same two engines, does 1 burn more than the other. Just seems a little weird in that regard. So far the poll looks pretty tight with the "Softly Softly" approach just sneaking ahead. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rporter Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 As was posted by deneb, engineers don't care about oil consumption. This has been stated for many years. FWIW most mfrs set their minimum oil consumption tolerances at less than 600 miles per quart before they consider it a "problem". Basically, this is a bullshit topic, just like discussing religion. From a mfrs standpoint, it doesn't matter what you do. Some of us believe (and I have my own personal proof) that beating the snot out of it works best. Others believe otherwise, as well as believing the "grandma driving" approach that every mfr puts in it's owners manual for the clueless who need guidance. Unless you keep a car for 10 years and 150k+ miles, you won't know. I did that for one car (with religious 3K dino oil changes) and the car is still running like a champ today with 220k for the 2nd owner. That told me all I need to know about the subject. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 I wouldnt call this topic BS at all. As I stated above and I will say again, where ppl get concerned is where they read that one engine burns more than the other. I totally disagree also that mgfs dont care about this. Then why do they do so many recalls on engines that burn to much. This is something that is kept pretty quiet in the industry otherwise everyone would be cashing in to get a new engine. Holden here in Australia with the American LS1 have had nothing but problems with oil consumption. I would hate to think the amount of engines and money that has changed hands since the inception on the LS1 into Australia. You have your personal beliefs about break in and that is great, and THIS IS THE REASON FOR THIS THREAD not about oil consumption. Thanks for posting up Ron, I think you also have some really valid points as well. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean96gsr Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I was reading this thread because I'm picking up my new LGT this week and it is new with 110 miles on and I was concerned about all those test drives and how it conflicts with break-in. I will share my own personal experience though: I drove an Acura Integra GSR that was my father's before it was mine. I traded it in with 221,000 miles, and it still ran amazingly, and to redline, with 0 issues. I don't know exactly how my Dad broke it in, but I do know that the main reason he bought it was the performance, and anyone familiar with that engine knows you needed to really rev it to get an idea of how quick it was. Needless to say, he loved it... the sound, the acceleration, the power... everything. That's at least a handful of hard runs during the test drive when the car had less than 10 miles on it, and I'm pretty sure it was driven that way from the test drive until the day it was sold. If that is any indication, the longevity of a modern motor is not affected much by the way it is broken in, but rather by how well it is maintained by its owner. EDIT: I still broke my car in according to factory spec. I kept it below 4,000 for the most part, avoided constant speed. I also did a lot of compression braking whenever possible for peace of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 G'Day Sean and Welcome to the Forum, make sure u post up in New Member Intros. This topic really comes down to personal choice, look at the poll how it stands and softly softly is slowly creeping ahead, not by much I admit but the gap is increasing. I agree that modern motors are built to withstand and lot more these days but in saying that a lot of time and money has been invested to make them bulletproof from day 1. For mine, Im still in the 1st category. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsyGT Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 There needs to be another choice, like: "Varying RPMs for the first 1000 miles" or something else in between the 2 choices (other than the 'undecided') I didn't drive like Grandma but I didn't abuse the engine from the getgo either. Just gradually stretched it's legs out a little at a time as I put more miles on it. Gave it a few spins over 4000 rpm but not for long. No excess oil loss, no engine stutter, and lots of power. I'll do the same thing next time. tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Well for mine tsyGT, that sums up the softly softly approach...... Easy Easy with a few sprited runs gradually streching the legs of the GT / STi Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_T Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Ron: I did quite a bit of research on it- and in 98% of cases reported that I could find- they all played the same- seep fixed by conditioner as directed by the dealership. Found 3 cases to my recollection from owners who had issues beyond that, in each case SoA or the Dealership corrected the issue beyond the conditioner. Worst case was a guy who had his piston & valve's replaced in the affected cyclinder. This was an especially prevalent issue on the older 2.5's starting back in the mid 90's but had been signifigantly curbed in the manufacturing process by the early 2k's with sporadic reports. Why I call it a seep- Because unless it was under 40 degrees I never 'lost' coolant to a degree that it was even noticeable. The first two months it was under 40 degrees here in Mich was the only time I ever -lost- coolant visibly in the resivour. Since the addative- nothing lost. Main reason I didn't let them mess with the Block is well- I'm way more nervous about letting them mess with that stuff then the amount of coolant I was loosing to this seep. Last time a mechanic touched my vehicles block and head- I had it in the shop every 20,000 miles there after because some damned thing had started leaking or broken, or warped. Why not get a used oil analysis done just to be sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean96gsr Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 There needs to be another choice, like: "Varying RPMs for the first 1000 miles" or something else in between the 2 choices (other than the 'undecided') I didn't drive like Grandma but I didn't abuse the engine from the getgo either. Just gradually stretched it's legs out a little at a time as I put more miles on it. Gave it a few spins over 4000 rpm but not for long. No excess oil loss, no engine stutter, and lots of power. I'll do the same thing next time. I broke mine in similarly. Never really went above 4,000 but drove it regularly within that range. I also don't have this "stutter", I haven't lost ANY oil over the first 1,200 miles, and I have a suspicion that this "clutch stink" is actually the protective sealant that they put on new engines burning off. Obviously my miles are still low, but I'll know in time. I still think that maintenance and build quality do a lot more for an engine than break-in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintinet Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 The clutch stench persists in my wife's 05 OB 2.5 XT after 11K miles. She also has a fairly annoying sutter. Not quite sure exactly how she broke it in.... Mine clutch is less provokable at 1K miles, but I can detect it at times. No stutter. Broke mine in with occasional bursts over 4K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy_GT_Pilot Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I broke-in my car according to the Motoman method - very hard. I actually did a few 1/4 mile runs with a G-Tech Pro with 30 km's on my car. What would be very interesting to see is what break-in method the fastest LGT's used? ________ Og kush seeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rporter Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I broke-in my car according to the Motoman method - very hard. I actually did a few 1/4 mile runs with a G-Tech Pro with 30 km's on my car. What would be very interesting to see is what break-in method the fastest LGT's used? I have broken my cars in HARD over the last 28 years (since my new '78 Z28 4-speed). I could bore everyone with the details, but my cars have always been the quickest example of the particular car that I've owned. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that a hard break-in works to produce the best-running engine. It works. I always run every car that I buy at the dragstrip. I have the best times that any particular model can run. Hard break-ins are the only way to go.....PERIOD. FWIW, I have run a best of 13.395 with a full weight LGT wagon and my 215# fat ass in the seat, with the only mod being an AP Stage 1. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_T Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 ...snip... It works. I always run every car that I buy at the dragstrip. I have the best times that any particular model can run. Hard break-ins are the only way to go.....PERIOD. FWIW, I have run a best of 13.395 with a full weight LGT wagon and my 215# fat ass in the seat, with the only mod being an AP Stage 1. That's one nice 1/4 mile time! How did you launch? What was the weather? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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