The B4 Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Why the heck does Canada get its Mototrends before I do....Mother.... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 http://www.mazda3forums.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=4285&fullsize=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topspin Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I was recently in an airport bookstore and saw what I believe is the latest car and driver mag. On the cover were 5 or 6 cars touted as daily driver "heroes". Under $30K US sport sedans. I believe Pontiac G6, Honda Accord V6, Mazdaspeed 6, Acura TSX, and VW Jetta GLI. I can't believe they completely snubbed the LGT Limited! The VW Jetta was the winner in their comparison. The LGT is such a sleeper and I think they know it, because it would have smashed the competition in the performance/value quotient. They even made reference to the fact that they excluded the Audi A4 and BMW 330i because they were way over the $30K mark. No mention of the LGT at all. And yes, they tested in in 10-04. Pissed, Topspin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fzanetti Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I was recently in an airport bookstore and saw what I believe is the latest car and driver mag. On the cover were 5 or 6 cars touted as daily driver "heroes". Under $30K US sport sedans. I believe Pontiac G6, Honda Accord V6, Mazdaspeed 6, Acura TSX, and VW Jetta GLI. I can't believe they completely snubbed the LGT Limited! The VW Jetta was the winner in their comparison. The LGT is such a sleeper and I think they know it, because it would have smashed the competition in the performance/value quotient. They even made reference to the fact that they excluded the Audi A4 and BMW 330i because they were way over the $30K mark. No mention of the LGT at all. And yes, they tested in in 10-04. Pissed, Topspin This is so called indirect paid advertisement... Come on, hasn't everyone wonderred why most of those US mid class sedans are struggling to sell? The Jetta GLI come on? What a fiasco in sales numbers, and not even commenting about the G6 heheheeheh another one... They did exclude our cars and a couple of other ones too, and you know there is a reason and an intention behind it.... Flavio Zanetti Boston, MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 noticed that text thing as well when I read the article at the local barnes and noble. At first I thought my mind was playing tricks on me... +1 Crappy editing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Gotta love that comprehensive coverage that topspin mentioned... :angry: This isn't the first time the Legacy or the Outback has been ignored in their own category. autorag Bastards. No wonder I don't carry supscriptions anymore. I buy half that number of decent rags per year, at the news stand, and get what I want from whomever seems to be giving the best material, and I still know what is going on for the most part, without subsidizing such crap, if I can help it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 i heard they excluded the LGT because it was the only one w/o a 6 speed gearbox, although that is still not a valid excuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Ok. Bad reason. SOA... give us a 6MT from the 3.0R Spec B on the USDM 2.5GT... Up the horsepower to 290-300 and similar torque. Then re-test. Include the new Legacy. watch the writer either pan the legacy despite STOMPING on the rest, or winge about how there is just something qualitative that just isn't right... something they can't put their finger on, and how the Jetta, TSX and even Mazdaspeed just somehow seem nicer, due to the advertising income. Lord knows that despite ANY efforts, it could never come near to the grail that is BMW 3-series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderkind Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 what do you mean? alot of the things that are options in other cars are standard in the LGT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Agreed the better interior trims besides simply silver painted or obviously-fake wood. And to answer wunderkind... Memory seats/mirrors Auto up and down windows and moonroof telescoping steering wheel HID headlight option NAV option regardless of transmission or bodystyle Interior color options Satelite/Aux-in audio, possibly audio upgrade option Sport Package tires and Suspension (Spec B should be that, if not standard on GT) well-geared 6MT with Variable Torque Distribution would be nice. VDC would also be cool. A body appearance package/Aerokit for the GT or Spec B would be nice, to give it a little more sport emphasis. ACC that works better would be a nice thing, especially with the Tribeca's three-dial LCD setup, which I think is quite interesting (meh on the rest of the tribeca's dash...) Personally I like the interior and exterior of the Legacy quite a lot. the improvements I mention above would be welcome, though, and go a ways to close any qualitative gaps with it's pricer competition from BMW, Audi, and Infinity, and firmly trounce Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, Hyundai, and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Agreed the better interior trims besides simply silver painted or obviously-fake wood. And to answer wunderkind... Memory seats/mirrors Auto up and down windows and moonroof telescoping steering wheel HID headlight option NAV option regardless of transmission or bodystyle Interior color options Satelite/Aux-in audio, possibly audio upgrade option Sport Package tires and Suspension (Spec B should be that, if not standard on GT) well-geared 6MT with Variable Torque Distribution would be nice. VDC would also be cool. A body appearance package/Aerokit for the GT or Spec B would be nice, to give it a little more sport emphasis. ACC that works better would be a nice thing, especially with the Tribeca's three-dial LCD setup, which I think is quite interesting (meh on the rest of the tribeca's dash...) Personally I like the interior and exterior of the Legacy quite a lot. the improvements I mention above would be welcome, though, and go a ways to close any qualitative gaps with it's pricer competition from BMW, Audi, and Infinity, and firmly trounce Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, Hyundai, and others. All these should be options that don't increase the price of a bare bones LGT. But Subaru can't afford todo so unless some are standard across it's line so it can be profitable. That will drive the price of the LGT close to and above the 30K range, which is unacceptable. Subaru != BMW/Audi/Merc. Subaru's mantra is KISS. It works and is reliable. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Legacy Limited should have The memory seats and mirrors (not much cost at all) Auto Up/down windows Telescoping steering wheel Interior color options (ALREADY HAD THAT, for pete's sake!) Satelite or aux in in the stereo. ACC that works better, with the three dials. Those should be added for 07 as standard. The rest, such as the NAV, HID, VDC, Aerokit, or stereo upgrade should be options. I could see going either way with the suspension. Spec B grade going standard equipment, or going to a package option for 07. Come on, now Melayout. The Outback isn't afraid to sell in the mid-30k range, and has things like VDC and NAV for a wagon. The Spec B is priced there, without enough extra goods to differentiate it from the sub-30k 06 LGT. KISS is usually good. But Subaru is selling 1800 units, and getting beaten to the punch by MORE AND MORE competitors. I don't subscribe to the mantra that Subaru should just make one trim level LGT, and it shouldn't be over 30k. They were doing better when they had the limited trim differentiated from the non-limited LGT. The 2.5i Legacy can handle the 20-26k category with three trim lines. The LGT should have at least two, one at 27k (sans leather and some of what I listed as standard equipment...), the other at 30-31k, with the optional equipment broken down as I listed, and available for both trim levels of the GT. I have also mentioned before that I think a Legacy 3.0R for the US market would be good to allow the GT to be more focused on being a sport sedan, and not having to be sedate enough to appeal to those not looking for a Sport sedan/wagon, but not an Outback SUV-alternative, either. Audi Sells more A6 sedans and Avants than they do All-roads... as does Volvo. Subaru is gonna end up in a knife fight with a tooth pick if they don't step up their equipement levels. All of what I mentioned is either EASILY doable with minimal to acceptable price increases, OR is already available on the Legacy in other markets. MS6 is just the beginning. Automakers are rushing car programs to market as they see SUV sales waning. They see customers wanting smaller, sleeker, and sportier, without giving up everyday useability. We are seeing sport sedan and coupe concepts coming out from just about everyone. Soon the Passat R-GT, Perhaps an SVT Fusion (if Fusion does well), Possibly an SRT version of the next Stratus, as well as the current SRT8 Charger. GM is trying (in vain, mostly) by putting small-blocks in everything, and they have a DOHC V6 in the CTS that might get spread around a bit more. The Honda Sport 4 with SH-AWD is a concept that hints at Honda's direction in the future, aside from putting a 6MT/V6 combo in the Accord. Toyota is vaguely trying to make the Camry more agressive. And that is just some of the four-doors. Practical Coupes can take a hack at the sport sedan market, too, as coupes come back, like Nissan's Foria... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topspin Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hey guys, there is always room for improvement with more options and upgraded materials. I am quite happy with the quality of the interior of my LGT limited and its styling, and performance (of course I want more too!) and my friends have been quite impressed with the car itself. When you look at what we have in this car, bone stock, I take pride when I'm on the freeway or around town that we can beat (driver skill notwithstanding), 98% of the cars on the road. Save some Porsches, Corvettes, M-BMWs, etc and cars of the high HP RWD type. But if the weather even sniffs of being inclement, God help them. Also, for a sport sedan under $30K, when you look at the tremendous performance gains that our cars can attain for very little money compared to the cost of adding HP to a NA car. For under $10,000 in mods (engine/exhaust/ECU/suspension/brakes), you have a world beater and you are still way under the price of say an Infinity G35 with AWD, or a Mercedes or BMW with 250+ HP. I think that says a lot about what we do have. IMHO. Topspin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Well said. Which is why I want a Legacy, despite whatever I listed above, that it doesn't have. I want the Legacy to kick some more sport sedan tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperator Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 The huge lists of options above are fine so long as they stay options. If they're added as stock then I'm sorry to say it that the added weight would affect performance (just look at the MS6, the R&T article moans about the weight of all the stock goodies slowing the car substantially). I'm hoping that the MT-wagon eliminated in 06 isn't indicative of a trend of softening the Legacy, but it just might be since everyone is clamoring for so much more stuff. Free speech and all that, but I sincerely hope Subaru doesn't pork up the Legacy because of the myriad gripes about no power seats and nav. The base, non-ltd GT is an extrordinarily light car for the class, and the light weight is why it's such a great performer. Oh well, I guess I should just be happy I got "one of the good ones" like my 2002 WRX was, before Subaru dilutes the model line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I agree with you, and would hate to see the GT add a couple hundred pounds... But how much can this stuff weigh? The memory seats and mirrors (Electronics in the Chassis Control Unit, and a couple of buttons) Auto Up/down windows (electronics, probably less than a pound additional) Telescoping steering wheel (lb or two for redesigned steering column...) Interior color options (ALREADY HAD THAT, for pete's sake! no net weight change) Satelite or aux in in the stereo. (circuitry and a couple wires. Ounces) ACC that works better, with the three dials. (hopefully no net weight change, but I would accept 5-10lbs for a separate ACC controller, to de-integrate it from the stereo, allowing for aftermarket stereo and faceplate installation) some of that stuff is a nil weight difference from what is already available. NAV components probably adds a few pounds. Should be optional, I agree with you there. HIDS. Should be optional due to cost, but I doubt it adds more than 10lbs (at the most) for the ballasts, igniters, and aiming motors. It isn't like the Mazdaspeed 6. The MS6 added Turbocharging equipment, and a rear drive section to the drivetrain. THAT does weigh something appreciable. Subarus already have it, and it is already counted in the curb weight, and is still less than the MS6. I also have been critical of SOA for narrowing the GT line to one model, when I think they should have kept the non-limited option, as well as adding Spec B option package to the GT, as well as offering the full-dress 3.0R and 3.0R Spec B, allowing the GT to stay a tad lighter and more focused. Most of the reason the GT weighs less than 3500lbs is the chassis design, though, and thankfully "options" aren't going to fundamentally change that, as the chassis is technically quite well endowed as is. Most gripes are about lack of relatively minor amenities that other cars in the class do offer, and stupid design choices (audio system/ACC) The Legacy is never going to be nearly as heavy as the Charger, or other heavier sedans, no matter what options are added, unless SOA comes out with a Lead Bodywork option, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec.B-Jay Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I know this may be slightly off topic, but for subaru to increase the quality of the interior trim pieces woudn't increase costs considerably, but would go a long way in those "well the interior isnt up to audi or BMW level" arguments. I think I would have paid an additional 1500-2500 over what I paid to get real aluminum interior bits, or at least a much higher grade plastic on the center stack, better audio, HID etc.. Wha??? I wouldn't trade my interior or dash for a 3-series interior in a million years. I compared these cars head to head when buying - the comparison didn't last long. It was an easy choice for me. They could do better with the stereo, but that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I dont thing that heightsgtltd meant that the legacy interior should ape the new 3-series. I think he was going for more robust interior trim peices (console side trims, console face, door handle trims, etc... out of real aluminum or other material, rather than vulnerable paint. I have a silver painted plastic remote control (Sony big-LCD universal remote) for my home theater, and I certainly hope the legacy plastic trims are much more robustly painted than that, because if it is similar, it is gonna look like crap in a few years, like my remote currently does. I certainly have not trouble with the design of the interior, and think it is quite handsome. There can always be improvements made, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperator Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I agree with you, and would hate to see the GT add a couple hundred pounds... But how much can this stuff weigh?. I kinda hear you, but little things do add up. The lengths gone to for the first USDM STI is a good example. The lack of stereo, thin back glass, and aluminum hood saved around 40lbs, if I recall correctly. That actually does matter, when you consider that the acceleration as a function of weight with constant power isn't a linear curve. Every little bit counts for something. Conversely, t would be better to go lighter rather than heavier. Then again it is a Legacy, and the base, non-ltd sedan is a performance deviant even within the 2005 lineup. Expecting crazy performance from what is historically a mild family sedan might be unreasonable, and Subaru might expect my demographic to look elsewhere (like an STI) for what I desire. It seems that 90% of the posters here aren't that concerned about performance (they like it but it's not the main selling point) as they are about aesthetics and luxury, and of course the market responds to the buyers desires. As for options. I'd like to see roll-up windows, non-power mirrors, and lighter-weight hood and trunk. Probably save over 120lbs, and that would be noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_knoxville Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 As for options. I'd like to see roll-up windows, non-power mirrors, and lighter-weight hood and trunk. Probably save over 120lbs, and that would be noticeable. looks like someone's in the market for an srt4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Curious if the next generation Legacy loses weight, or at least stays the same. Rare nowadays for a new generation of a model weighing the same, nevermind less. Happened with both the Legacy and Forester. -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperator Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 SRT4 IS TEH F4ST4RRRRR!!!! Too small - I have a kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemani Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Has there been ANY Subaru models with a telescoping steering column? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 snippage>... Expecting crazy performance from what is historically a mild family sedan might be unreasonable, and Subaru might expect my demographic to look elsewhere (like an STI) for what I desire. It seems that 90% of the posters here aren't that concerned about performance (they like it but it's not the main selling point) as they are about aesthetics and luxury, and of course the market responds to the buyers desires. As for options. I'd like to see roll-up windows, non-power mirrors, and lighter-weight hood and trunk. Probably save over 120lbs, and that would be noticeable. OK... I mean no offense by this, and no flame intended, but I am curious... Did you buy your car for a driver, or a weekend racer? I know what you are saying, and I understand your points. I would not buy a legacy if I were wanting a sports car to wring every last drop of performance out of, and forego every option for weight savings. That is the realm of a stripped out coupe or roadster sportscar. We have a Miata, and I know the virtues of light weight, and that is why we'll keep it, and trade the more utilitarian truck. The Legacy is not that focused sports car. People other than yourself and a few other club racers would not tolerate roll-up windows or non-power mirrors in a >$20k sedan, let alone a $30k sedan. SOA would really be shooting themselves in the foot to option it that way. The car already has an aluminum hood, BTW. (Sedan trunk lid may be steel and plastic, but I think the wagon hatch might be aluminum, too.) ~3400lbs is really a respectable figure for an AWD car in it's class. Mazdaspeed 6 is a couple hundred pounds heavier, and the Dodge Charger is almost a thousand pounds heavier, for comparison. For the role that most people buy this car, the option list could stand to be longer to compete with other similar cars, not shorter. I will be buying this car to drive every day to work, rain, shine, or blizzard, as well as to take 3-400 mile weekend round trips to see family, and to have guests ride along from time to time. The 250hp turbocharged engine, the manual transmission, handling, AWD, and looks are perks for ME, the driver, because without them I would probably get very bored, since I am an enthusiast, after all. Hence I am going for a Legacy GT, not a Ford Taurus or Toyota Camry. The Legacy really is a Sedan/Wagon first, and an all-season performance car in addition to that fact. Most sedans and wagons in the LGT's price class don't have that additional bit attached. That is what makes the LGT special. Seriously, though. If you were looking for a car with no additional weight for performance reasons... you should be looking for something with two doors and two seats. I'd be going for a WRX STi, older 2.5RS Coupe, Mazdaspeed Miata, RX7, Porsche 944 Turbo, or something else along those lines for the role you are describing. BTW, telescoping steering column... never too late to start, regardless if it has been done in a Subie before or not... I am 6'2" and have long arms, and the wheel is a decent reach for me, but not beyond comfortable. I can definitely see how shorter people have an issue there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperator Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 heh... Because I live in NYC, keeping more than one car is extremely difficult. I had a WRX with the Legacy for a while but the 2 car situation was unteneble, we have only one space in our garage and alternate-side-of-the-street parking rules were making my life miserable. I kept the Legacy because we need the space for our baby and related accoutrements. So it's the family car. I know I'm odd, it's just that luxury and aesthetics don't really mean anything to me (I felt the 2002 WRX was fugly but bought it anyhow). I feel I'd rather have every bit of performance for when the baby isn't riding with me, rather than leather seats and power everything, even with the miles I put on the car (11 months so far with 21,000 miles). As long as I can fit the baby seat and have AWD with quick times I'm happy. My priorities were: 1)reliability 2)AWD sedan 3)fit baby 4)fast in that order Those other cars you mentioned, with the exception of the STI are all slower than my model Legacy (base sedan, non-ltd MT, 3300 lbs even). Nothing else with the aforementioned requisites is as reliable as a Subaru. We can't all keep track cars, I'd like to think I'm not the only one who is excited about the new reality of an inexpensive family sedan as quick as a Lamborghini Countach. Perhaps our discussion is a testament to what a truly special car Subaru has cooked up. (the haters can ignore that part) I just think that Subaru should keep their cars a little more bare with performance as the focus, like they've done in Japan. Keeping to a niche is better business than trying to compete with the established luxury sedan powers, let Audi and BMW provide luxury first with a bit of performance thrown in. Honestly, if I wanted an Audi, I would've bought an Audi. Let Subaru provide the 22Bs and S204s. Subaru is already coming around to the "wagon/sedan first, performance second" thing you mentioned by eliminating the MT in the wagon for 06. It's probably because they didn't sell well, most Subaru wagon buyers are not performance-oriented types anyhow and Subaru adjusted accordingly. The problem is, how far down that road are they going to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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