Plz Help!! HG or Rings or valve seal

[kyle04legacy]

2004 Legacy 35th Anniversary Edition 5speed 158k miles ej251 (CORRECT ENGINE SAYS ON THE MANUFACTURER TAG) NA non turbo

Appears to be stock metal single layer head gasket. 

No leaks. No loss of coolant in 2500 miles. Not overheating. No power loss.  

Massive oil consumption. 1 quart in under 100 miles. Doesn’t smoke out of oil filler neck with cap off. Doesn’t smoke out exhaust consistently. Will bellow large cloud of smoke intermittently. 

Can’t afford to have leak down/compression test done by shop. 

Question is this: would bad head gasket cause my oil consumption and not over heat? Or ringland failure more likely culprit even with no loss of performance? Should I replace head gaskets and do nothing else? Replace head gaskets and valve stem seals? Or just do motor swap? Which would be a poor man’s best option. Literally can’t afford to do anything but one of these options

You pull has a wrecked outback that has the triple layer head gaskets. Engine is clean and no leaks. Totaled so ran before wreck. Unknown mileage. Engine is $350

[silverton]

oil consumption can be caused by a failed PCV valve, piston rings, or valve stem seals.  does the large cloud of smoke happen after idling or sitting off for some time, like at a red light or overnight?  That would be valve stem seals.  if it smokes all the time, that would be piston rings. 1 quart in 100 miles is very excessive and should definitely be noticeable from the tail pipe regardless the cause

It is possible the head gasket has failed internally.  look up blackstone laboratories and look in to sending them an oil sample, those guys are wicked smaht, on the little paper just mention you're concerned with oil consumption, they may be able to tell you what it is.

[kyle04legacy]

I replaced the pcv valve. And no smoke at start up after cold all night doesn’t smoke consistently either. It’s randomly a huge amount comes out then goes away. I can sit and redline it and doesn’t consistently smoke. Idk how to explain it. And it’s going thru a gallon a tank of oil and nothing in ground and underneath is dry. No oil dripping from

exhaust. I’m beyond confused  

[m sprank]

This is going to sound a bit out there, but I have a method to my madness...  Does your coolant look like a milky gravy?  Does your exhaust smell like roasting marshmallows?

[kyle04legacy]

Coolant appears to be normal green coolant. Had had green in it since I bought car. No coolant loss or coolant level rising. Oil isn’t milky. The over flow bottle has a slight black tint on the inside. But never overheated (was 74 today) a/c cranked, 80mph down interstate. I noticed sometimes from dead stop if i do a hard take off it’s a little sluggish till 4k rpm then clears out. That’s intermittent as well doesn’t do it all the time. And everything just smells like burning oil. On a fb group someone said there has been some very rare cases about an oil return In the head that might be plugged. I’ve considered a bad cat and thought about cutting it out and straight piping it. Going to replace oil pressure switch tomorrow 

[kyle04legacy]

I just filled up with gas. Went in. Paid. Started pumping. Checked oil. Obviously low. Pulled oil cap and there was smoke but very light and not much. Just enough to notice it

[doublechaz]

I can imagine a ring that hangs up bad sometimes and passes a lot of oil.  More than that I can imagine a PCV that hangs up sometimes and passes a lot of oil.  Even a new one.  Especially a new one, really.  I can't see a valve seal coming in and out like that.

The cats can scrub out a fairly large amount of burning oil, but it is very bad for the cat to do that.

I would start by taking the intake tube off of the throttle body and checking the inside point where the PCV joins in and see if there is evidence of oil there.  Better yet would be to clean it all out with carb clean and then check it after some driving.

I would also try to minimize driving as much as you reasonably can until you have proved that the cats aren't eating a lot of burned oil.

[m sprank]

Non turbo car, most likely low compression, not going to have a lot of exhaust pressure.  I'm with @doublechaz at this point and would be pulling the mid-pipe to look at the rear cat.  1qt per 100 miles should mean DOA engine.  If the oil and coolant is not mixing and there is no oil dripping from the tail pipe, its in the cats.  Your car has 3 so between an engine and 3 cats, this is getting expensive. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by m sprank

[kyle04legacy]

I can’t not drive. I drive a lot. I’m 100 miles. Into a 400 mile drive right now. Haven’t stopped to check oil. I will when I stop for fuel in about a hour. It won’t be on the stick I know that much. When I stop I’ll investigate the pcv into intake. I’m still getting 400 miles per tank of gas. And very expensive. If I straight pipe it all the way no cats no muffler. Will it affect back pressure needed to run properly? I appreciate your insight a lot and km

willimg to try just about anything. I don’t think low compression is a factor cause performance wise it gets up and goes. I did do plugs and wires recently and old plugs were in good shape still. Non were wet. Or burnt up if was running lean. It’s a serious mystery haha would it make any different to eliminate the pcv all together? I have the old one still I’ll drill it out so it’s just open run a hose to ground. Cap the intake part? I’m really not wanting to pull a loan and have a payment on something else. And a motor form you pull is $350. Totaled outback automatic but obviously ran before they wrecked it 

[kyle04legacy]

That’s the new pcv I installed about 500 miles ago. And the old one as well.  There is oil at the intake port too. Currently has no pcv and the hose stuffed in the hole and capped intake spot no difference to idle or engine sound. Was just under 2 quarts short and I went 193 miles. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by kyle04legacy

[kyle04legacy]

I’m pulling back iver and putting pcv valve back in. Smoking significantly worse and definitely lost power. Smoke is inconsistent still too not continuously smoking 

Edited May 12, 2023 by kyle04legacy

[kyle04legacy]

Might add when I was checking oil I cracked radiator cap. Released pressure and was able to remove cap even tho just drive nearly 200 miles able to remove rad cap within 3 mins of stopping 

[doublechaz]

The PCV is an important part of this nutritious breakfast.  If it wasn't needed, it wouldn't be there to begin with.  Glad you put it back already.

I once had a Ford that used as much oil as you are talking about, but it had James Bond smokescreen mode at every stop and enough smoke to blacken the tailgate in steady driving.  People would literally not be able to drive through a light behind me for lack of seeing.  It also ran on two cylinders because the leak was so bad.  It went to the crusher as soon as possible.

It is truely shocking to me that you can use this much oil and it not be horrifyingly obvious where it is going.

I'm not sure it's true, but I've heard that a valve stem seal on an exhaust valve can heat the oil to the point where it burns much more cleanly than other internal leaks.  Together with a cat could this make the smoke not visible?  Not sure.  You did say that the exhaust stinks of burning oil.

I would still like to see some solid evidence of where it's going before making a call on what plan to execute.  Are you saying $350 for a complete working engine?  If you can do the swap, that price would be hard to beat, but it will be silly if the problem turned out to be something else.

[doublechaz]

Do you have the tools to get OBD II live engine data?  Like an elm327 and torque android app or similar.  It would be great to see what are the fuel trims now vs. before the problem.  Also, if your year has it, the cat temperatures before and after.  But even with the tools chances are good you don't have solid before data to compare to.  Normal people don't.

[kyle04legacy]

I do not. But i haven’t had a cel ever. Used autozone scan to see if there was any codes that wouldn’t trip cel and there wasn’t. I never stopped and put pcv back in either. After a few miles it’ stopped feeling sluggish and normal again. I haven’t stopped yet to check oil and I’m definitely curious if made any difference. I have found a ej252 (mines ej251) pulled. Runs good no leaks or overheating says the guy. Unknown mileage. He wrecked his 2000 legacy gt and had been parting out. He wants $400. But my car running no pcv valve I will admit there isn’t a burning oil smell like there was before 

[kyle04legacy]

And yes complete working engine for $350 at u pull. Or private party I found for $400. If my engine ends up being easy fix then put it back in or rebuild first then swap back in. The swap  looks simple. I had a Jetta once upon a time and I swapped the 1.8t by myself out and I’m driving down road in under 5hrs in my gravel driveway t o boot 

[kyle04legacy]

[kyle04legacy]

So 2nd thru 4th. Pcv valve is removed still. Thoughts?

[m sprank]

Driving is not troubleshooting. A few simple tests would determine if it was rings, valves or internal hg.  Compression (rings), leak down (valves),  coolant exhaust gas test (hg). That much oil loss Is a MAJOR problem. 

[silverton]

God damn, mans drives his 2004 Outback like it's a fuckin race car.

 

You need an engine bud.

[kyle04legacy]

Motor it is. Headed there now 

[silverton]

With that kind of oil consumption, you should also replace your catalyst so it doesn't break the replacement motor too.

[kyle04legacy]

Well the smoke finally came. And it’s bad. I’m still limping to get to motor. And I’m straight piping it. No cats will be on it 

[m sprank]

Spoken like a true WVian.  LOL. Good luck. Hope you make it home safe. 

[NORULZleggy]

Man you had that NA tapping the range lol. It's cheaper to drop a rebuilt motor in it.