Whiteline SB's

[whitexc]

Looking at SB's for the money pit.

 

I see Whiteline whlBSK014 is on sale at a few places. I know they will be an upgrade on the stock LGT.

 

Do I need reinforcement brackets for the rear? How bad is the install? Will they pair well with future suspension upgrades like a good strut/spring combo or C/O's?

 

Thanks as always and open to suggestions.

 

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[Febreze Mee]

What kind of driving will you be doing with aforementioned modifications?

[whitexc]

Daily, street car that my daughter will eventually be driving.....should it last long enough after all this work.

 

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[jams20]

I installed whitelines on my 2006. No reinforcement bracket required. Definite upgrade. Also have bilstein and pink STIs on the corners. Love the handling.

 

 

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[Code]

Even stock bars should have a reinforcement bracket.

 

White line is a fine product. Easy install, noticeable upgrade, not the best durability of their finish - it will rust.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Code

[whitexc]

Is there something better? Both bars, links and bushings for $480 didn't seem bad.

 

Edit: found them elsewhere for just over $400

 

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Edited December 10, 2021 by whitexc

[blackobxt]

I was able to flex my stock brackets by hand. I don’t see how stiffening them up wouldn’t warrant some benefit.

[All_talk]

Be careful how you go about reinforcing the rear SB brackets, many of the available kits mount to the subframe bolt which essentially locks down the bushing at that mount. Not good for a daily driver in my opinion.

[tehspud]

I got that kit last summer, and eventually swapped the whiteline endlinks for solid kartboy ones. Felt and sounded like no matter what I did, the whiteline ones always changed length on their own and caused a lot of clunking. Otherwise I'm happy with the bars. I did the rear avo bracket supports at the same time. All in all the install was super easy.

[Code]

IMO you want that bushing as stiff as possible. It’s a sway bar. Shouldn’t affect ride except when the car is unevenly loaded size to side. The mount and bushing should be as still as possible and then size the bar appropriately for your needs. That’s why there are different sizes and designs. Just know that thick bars will reduce the independence of the suspension in side-to-side transitions.

 

All talk - you do have a valid point in that it will have potential to add some NVH. Though I’m pretty sure every 4th-gen had NVH as a standard feature.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Code

[blackobxt]

These cars are definitely noisy. I installed my whiteline rsb with new links and avo braces about a month ago on my lowered outback xt and if I would have known what a difference it made it would have probably been the first thing I did to the car. The car feels so much more stable especially at highway speeds that the car itself feels much safer. My wife doesn’t give two stones about performance and recently drove the car and asked what I did to it and mentioned how much better it went down the highway.

[shralp]

Better rear brackets are a must if your upgrading the rear bar, as the new forces put on it will definitely make them fail over time. Agreed with others it’s probably the best bang for your buck to transform the handling. It will get rid of much of the factory under steer that you feel when you start to push the car. Remember, adding a larger front sway will do the opposite, that is, add under steer back in. I’d suggest just doing the rear for now and save budget for other suspension parts

[jams20]

Looks like I will be investigating braces

 

 

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[whitexc]

So the 20mm rear with supports for now? I'm good with small steps in the right direction.

 

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[shralp]

yeah I'd do that for now and choose an appropriate flavor of end link. the poly insert in the stock ball-and-cup ones gets warn down over time and gets play in them. Lots of debate out there for end links and I don't have any answers I am running the nice Whiteline double adjustable ones on the track car so I'm able to make small adjustments if need be. They are more complex for sure and there is more to come loose. I run mine with medium duty lock tight and have had no issues. Didn't want to fiddle with that on my XT daily so I'm actually running the Moogs spec'd for our '05-'09 platform. They are way burlier than stock both in the cup design and thickness of the shaft with zerks for easy re-lubing down the line. Dirt cheap too. Think I got them on Amazon so I could get free shipping. Happy with those for the intended use so running them F&R on the XT, (also with a Whiteline front sway but with Rallitek OEM Outback height stiffer springs all the way around). Other brands out there that seem to work well too but don't have any experience with them. I will say that no matter what, aftermarket sways squeak more than you'd want them to! Re-lubing the bushings, while pretty simple, just annoys me. I coat that thing inside and out like a freakin' glazed donut. Edited December 10, 2021 by shralp

[MoleMan]

You don't need reinforcement brackets or any braces for street driving. In fact the more bracing you put on the car the stiffer it will become and the ride will be awful believe me on this. The braces are really only good for track cars where you want the car to have as limited lean as possible.

 

In your case a front strut tower brace from Cusco would be a great option. They look a hell of alot better then the ebay specials as far as that goes.

 

As far as brackets half the people will always say buy brackets. really I have not had an issue over four cars without brackets. And when I did buy some really nice Hotchkis brackets I never got around to putting them on. Once again braces are great for the track and thats about it.

 

As far as saving money do everything at once. Try to get the sways to be matched MM wise which a set will be anyway within 2 or so MM. With whiteline I believe the rear bar is 26 and the front is 28 or so(I am close but not perfect) And I like to run the bar on the stiff setting in the front and the middle hole in the back for a more neutral setup. But thats all about how as well. what works for me may not work for you.

 

If you were going to do anything with the sways I would buy new Whiteline Endlinks Front and real to compliment the new bars. The factory ones are probably toast anyway or will be toast fairly soon after replacing the bars. I have a Whiteline Front/Cusco rear setup with Whiteline endlink and Cusco bar on my 3.0 and the handling is great for the street. If I went with additional bracing yeah it would be better in the tighter corners but awful on anything else.

[shralp]

Meh, front strut bars are window dressing on a Subaru unless you're scratching for extra tenths at the track. Subaru's already have a huge front bar connecting the shock towers straight from the factory. Its the firewall. Unlike lots of other cars with a huge gap between the two, (a la E46 BMW's etc etc) where a front strut bar helps to tie in the square, Subaru smartly placed our towers just a few inches from the firewall and that is damn stiff.

 

Can't speak to a rough ride with just adding rear sway bar re-enforcement brackets and a bigger bar. I've owned multiple 4 gen turbo wagons over the last 15 yrs. and all have been in various states of "OEM+" to pretty wildly modified and I don't think I'd ever call that one mod a "rough ride" by any stretch.

[whitexc]

Good convo folks. I certainly agree that what works for some may not work for others. By no stretch do I rag this car and we don't even have cool roads here. That said, a tweak here or there isn't a bad thing. Front links on the stock bar are newer Moogs with about 10k on them. I will likely go with Moog for the rears. I like zirks. Still shopping bars(which one has the best paint/coating lol?). Will likely add brackets.

 

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[shralp]

So the 20mm rear with supports for now? I'm good with small steps in the right direction.

 

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I looked back in my records, can't seem to find the invoice for my Whiteline rear bar but I'm thinking it was bigger than 20mm. If memory serves me the JDM OEM GT rears were 20mm? Pretty sure that Whiteline has a stiffer one, mine is their double adjustable one, 22-24 I think? Front is 22mm

 

*EDIT nope think you're right, I see the matched sets for sale here listing a 20mm rear. I believe that's 20mm on the first setting and 22 on the stiff setting.

Edited December 11, 2021 by shralp

[whitexc]

I found Moog links for the rear on Amazon for $15.**. Much cheaper than the parts stores. Sorry locals...but money is hard earned and spent somewhat smart lol.

 

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[Code]

You don't need reinforcement brackets or any braces for street driving. In fact the more bracing you put on the car the stiffer it will become and the ride will be awful believe me on this. The braces are really only good for track cars where you want the car to have as limited lean as possible.

 

In your case a front strut tower brace from Cusco would be a great option. They look a hell of alot better then the ebay specials as far as that goes.

 

As far as brackets half the people will always say buy brackets. really I have not had an issue over four cars without brackets. And when I did buy some really nice Hotchkis brackets I never got around to putting them on. Once again braces are great for the track and thats about it.

 

As far as saving money do everything at once. Try to get the sways to be matched MM wise which a set will be anyway within 2 or so MM. With whiteline I believe the rear bar is 26 and the front is 28 or so(I am close but not perfect) And I like to run the bar on the stiff setting in the front and the middle hole in the back for a more neutral setup. But thats all about how as well. what works for me may not work for you.

 

If you were going to do anything with the sways I would buy new Whiteline Endlinks Front and real to compliment the new bars. The factory ones are probably toast anyway or will be toast fairly soon after replacing the bars. I have a Whiteline Front/Cusco rear setup with Whiteline endlink and Cusco bar on my 3.0 and the handling is great for the street. If I went with additional bracing yeah it would be better in the tighter corners but awful on anything else.

 

 

To reiterate what Shralp said - there is bad info in your post.

[whitexc]

Going to keep this convo alive in my build thread as the info is better suited for future reference. Mods can close this one if they'd like.

 

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[MoleMan]

@Code,

 

Please explain.

 

The OP said he was thinking about bracing. I took that as Underbody bracing such as a chassis bracing. Not a strut tower bar or sways.

 

Chassis braces are awful for street driving. Sways and a strut tower bar are not what I would call stiff at all unless you are running some 35 series tires set to 45 PSI or something along those lines.

 

As far as comparing a E36 or E46 BMW to a Leggy honestly its a different car in an entirely different world. Different driving characteristic so different responses will be had by different mods just like your Wagons compared to a sedan. I had two E36 M3's in the past and to me they were just boring and people would call me crazy. The Only BMW I seem to enjoy is a N65 M3 for some reason. As far as your comment on strut tower braces on BMW's or any high HP front engine/rear drive car I will agree that the Front tower brace helps plant the front end slightly better but just slightly.

 

And the last thing. The Whiteline is 22/24 and I believe the front is a 25/26.

[Code]

Every car that is driven spiritedly should have rsb reinforcement brackets. The factory mounts are made of tinfoil and WILL break or deform, even with the oem bar.

 

Bracing won’t kill your ride. It may introduce some nvh but that will be limited. On a street car there will be very limited return for cost.

 

Strut braces on these cars are bling. They are meant to reduce chassis deflection under heavy side-to-side loading. Legacy fronts struts are pretty much mounted ON the firewall. They aren’t going to deflect or change the geometry under load. Other vehicles have the strut mounts pushed forward and don’t have the inherent stiffness that the legacy does. They ought to call it a “Cusco Shiny Engine Bay Stick”, that’s more accurate. I have them. I like shiny things. I also accept them for what they are. STI sells a FLEXIBLE bar. That’s not how they work lol.

 

As far as sway bar sizing - they are part of a system. There is no “best” size or combo for all cars. It’s going to depend on the combo of other parts interacting with those bars as well as driving style. there is such a thing as “too stiff”. As stated in an earlier post, thicker bars reduce suspension independence and you can lift the inside wheel in hard corners, reducing overall grip.

 

The things that worked on your bmw chassis may not directly apply to a legacy. Totally different designs and handling characteristics/chassis dynamics.

[shralp]

I did opt for a rear strut tower brace a few years ago for the track car since there was a forum member that had recently put in a roll cage and was selling it now that the car was super rigid. No idea how much flex the rear towers have when I’m full chat on track so I figured it wouldn’t hurt. It looks out of place back there, a shiny Cusco bit surrounded by a less than pretty gutted rear interior