COVID-19 - who's got some?

[cww516]

I generally agree with that sentiment, although that decision should be an educated and informed one, and that's proving difficult in some cases. I understand that there are valid reasons to not be vaccinated (history of anaphylactic reactions to other vaccines, etc.), but if I was going to try to make a list of good reasons, things like "I don't wanna" and "this guy on YouTube said" wouldn't make the cut.

 

In the specific case of the US military, though, there are already plenty of mandatory immunizations, so this would just mean adding one more to the existing list.

https://www.health.mil/Military-Health-Topics/Health-Readiness/Immunization-Healthcare/Vaccine-Recommendations/Vaccine-Recommendations-by-AOR

[gkinslow]

I think "I don't wanna" is reason enough in this country. (for civilians anyway)

[ammcinnis]

... if I was going to try to make a list of good reasons, things like "I don't wanna" and "this guy on YouTube said" wouldn't make the cut.

Then there's the ever-popular, "You're not the boss of me!"

 

I think "I don't wanna" is reason enough in this country.

The problem is, this is a highly infectious, potentially fatal disease and your "I don't wanna" ends at my face. You don't have a right to infect me or anyone else when there are reasonable alternatives available. As one example, if you still "don't wanna" I'm quite content for you to either mask up or quarantine yourself at home indefinitely.

Edited April 13, 2021 by ammcinnis

[gkinslow]

So you vaccinate yourself and viola, you no longer have to worry about what anyone else does (Or doesn't) do.

 

 

Edit: for the record, I'm not saying I won't get vaccinated, I can see where someone would object to being forced into getting a vaccine that was rushed.

Edited April 12, 2021 by gkinslow

[derache123]

So you vaccinate yourself and viola, you no longer have to worry about what anyone else does (Or doesn't) do.

 

 

Edit: for the record, I'm not saying I won't get vaccinated, I can see where someone would object to being forced into getting a vaccine that was rushed.

 

Except that the desired macro effect of vaccination can't really be achieved unless the vast majority of the population is vaccinated. If the virus is still allowed to freely circulate among those that are not vaccinated, the risk of new vaccine-resistant variants appearing will likely increase, which could reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine for those who are vaccinated.

[gkinslow]

Sacrificing personal freedoms to possibly achieve herd immunity faster (for a virus with a high survival rate) is a non-starter for me.

[ehsnils]

Even getting vaccinated is a way to serve your country by limiting the propagation and infiltration the virus does.

[cww516]

Sacrificing personal freedoms to possibly achieve herd immunity faster (for a virus with a high survival rate) is a non-starter for me.

 

So I typed this all out, and as I'm re-reading it, I feel like I should preface it by stating that this isn't meant as a personal attack on yourself or anyone else, and I sincerely hope that's not how it comes across. This just happens to be something I'm fairly passionate about, and since I'm generally incapable of being detached and apathetic toward the people around me, seeing opinions on this subject that differ significantly from mine tend to get me wound up pretty tight. Here goes:

 

 

Here's the thing- if a person elects not to get vaccinated, or not to wear a mask when they're around other people, they're putting the people they interact with at risk. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" doesn't mean "do whatever you want, full stop," it means "do whatever you want, if and only if the thing you want to do doesn't interfere with anyone else's rights to life, liberty and/or the pursuit of happiness." Or, as first I heard it very succinctly phrased about 15 years ago, "your rights end where my nose begins." Everyone is free to wear or not wear masks as they see fit, or to be vaccinated or not, so long as they do it in accordance with the rights and freedoms of everyone else around them. If someone in one of those camps expects others around them to just go ahead and die for their convenience, though, that isn't just a violation of those other people's personal freedoms, it's unimaginably selfish. "I don't wanna" is something a 2 year old says to be contrarian when you tell them it's time for bed, so hopefully you'll forgive me for trying to hold fully-grown adults to a higher standard.

 

Also, I'd argue that a 1.8% mortality rate (current US stats) isn't exactly a small number, but regardless, that figure ignores the host of possible long-term medical conditions the disease can cause in those who survive it. Maybe I'm a little more sensitive to such things, given that I'm in the age group most likely to experience those long-term effects, but I'm not personally looking to sign up for a chance to win permanent heart damage, lung damage, decrease in neurological function, mental health issues, blood disorders, or any of the other fun prizes. That's going to be a considerable issue, too- some of those lucky enough to survive are going to end up on disability and Medicaid for the next 40-50 years because they're unable to work, which means decreased productivity (GDP per capita), and an increased tax burden on those still able to work, not to mention the hit we've already taken by refusing to just rip the band-aid off early last year with a lockdown in favor of drawing it out into a full-blown recession. Even those "unaffected" by COVID are going to continue to be affected by it for years to come, and dragging this thing out by refusing to accept the readily-available and obvious solutions will only make it worse.

 

 

Side note on the "rushed" comment from your previous post, I'd argue that "fast-tracked" would be a more accurate assessment. The vaccines approved for use in the United States have all undergone clinical trials in order to be approved, so it's not like corners have been cut and we're living in a medical Wild West. mRNA vaccine technology has been around for 30+ years now, too, so it's not exactly bleeding-edge tech- heck, if I (not a doctor, nor a biologist, nor adjacent to anything remotely close to the "squishy" sciences) can explain the general concept accurately in under 90 seconds, it can't be *that* complex. What's actually happening is that we're seeing the results of funding being made readily available for medical research, as well as reviews of that research happening in a timely fashion, rather than the standard process of researchers begging for grants and reviews being tied up in bureaucracy for years. It's faster than normal, true, but normal is far slower than it could (should?) be.

 

I'm actually really excited to see where this research will lead- now that those who control the purse strings in the medical research community have seen the real-world potential of mRNA vaccines, I'd imagine we'll see some big leaps in the field over the next 10 years. The folks who developed the Pfizer vaccine were working on a cure for cancer before they pivoted to COVID, and it looks like there's been some promising work toward curing or immunizing against HIV as well.

 

 

Even getting vaccinated is a way to serve your country by limiting the propagation and infiltration the virus does.

 

I realize I'm painting with a pretty wide brush here, but we Americans tend to be good at compassion and bad at empathy- could call it a hero complex. I'd speculate that there's a non-trivial level of overlap between the group of people your comment would resonate with, and the group of people who have already been vaccinated (or who want to be vaccinated).

[ammcinnis]

Sacrificing personal freedoms to possibly achieve herd immunity faster (for a virus with a high survival rate) is a non-starter for me.

I consider the actions I have taken voluntarily based on medical advice ... staying home when possible, masking up in public, getting vaccinated ... all to be acts of personal responsibility, good citizenship, and patriotism, not in any way a sacrifice of personal freedom.

[chowser51]

It's America. Do what you want. Don't force your views on others.

 

 

With that said, second Pfizer shot was Saturday. Sore injection site for two days, no other symptoms. Not mandatory at work, but suggested.

 

 

Most of us are getting the shots. Even the ones that had COVID before. Half our fire department elected not to get the shot. Most of the PD is getting the shot.

[whitexc]

J&J last Saturday. Nothing other than a sore injection site. Fiance had the virus back in October and also received her dose of J&J last week. Tired for a day or so and that's all.

 

Do what you wish folks. This is 'Merica. Be respectful of others is the only request I have.

 

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

[gkinslow]

I consider the actions I have taken voluntarily based on medical advice ... staying home when possible, masking up in public, getting vaccinated ... all to be acts of personal responsibility, good citizenship, and patriotism, not in any way a sacrifice of personal freedom.

I would totally agree with that. Forcing those unwilling to get vaccinated would be sacrificing personal freedom. You had a choice and chose what you believed to be in you and your family's best interest. I wouldn't deny anyone that choice. That freedom is essential IMO.

 

Obviously this is all just a discussion and not meant as a personal attack on anyone. (Or perceived as such on my end) Civil discourse is necessary and there's 20% of me that enjoys playing devils advocate and representing an unpopular opinion even when I'm uncertain where I personally stand on the topic.

 

 

 

Here's a perfect example of why personal choice is necessary IMO.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/13/covid-us-recommends-pause-j-j-vaccine-after-reports-blood-clots/7200817002/

Edited April 13, 2021 by gkinslow

[cww516]

I will absolutely agree that forcing someone to be vaccinated against their will isn't really something that happen (military notwithstanding), although I think it's reasonable for restrictions to be placed on what unvaccinated individuals can or can't do, similar to how you have to get certain shots in order to attend most colleges. I'm just a dude behind a keyboard- just because I don't think "I don't wanna" is a good reason, that doesn't make it any less of a valid reason.

 

Also, I hear you on the devil's advocate thing- I'm not above doing that occasionally just to get a rise out of people, and I've been known to be an easy mark on certain subjects (see exhibit A, 5 posts up). I'd much rather have a discussion with at least some level of disagreement, makes me more likely to want to verify my facts and opinions on the subject at hand.

[DrD123]

Here's the thing- if a person elects not to get vaccinated, or not to wear a mask when they're around other people, they're putting the people they interact with at risk. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" doesn't mean "do whatever you want, full stop," it means "do whatever you want, if and only if the thing you want to do doesn't interfere with anyone else's rights to life, liberty and/or the pursuit of happiness."

I keep remembering the Kay and Peele airline skit where one of them is telling the other not to do something and he's responding "but is it against the law?" - I think until the country mandates vaccinations - or even the state, folks can still go with the "I don't want to" and it will fly.

 

 

I have been wondering at what point we would get to the situation where everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been, and how many people will be left...

 

 

The rushed vaccine development is not really true - as explained by several virologists at the labs I work at, normally, vaccine development is slowed by lack of funding and lack of a population to test on - this time they had the money they needed, and test subjects a plenty, so it could go fast. They did do the emergency use authorization, which takes place before the last set of data is gathered that is required for full authorization and usually takes a couple of months. (I was more than a little concerned they had cut corners until it was explained to me by folks who know)

[gkinslow]

The emergency approval is concerning. I'll wait until that last data set is collected/ published/ reviewed.

 

If it's only "a couple months" shouldn't we be dropping the emergency label and giving full fda approval imminently?

 

Honest questions as there are people far more informed than myself in this thread.

[derache123]

The emergency approval is concerning. I'll wait until that last data set is collected/ published/ reviewed.

 

If it's only "a couple months" shouldn't we be dropping the emergency label and giving full fda approval imminently?

 

Honest questions as there are people far more informed than myself in this thread.

 

I think the term "emergency approval" has negative connotations that don't necessarily correspond to the facts. Even though the current vaccines given emergency approval may not have undergone as comprehensive a vetting process as true FDA approval typically entails, they've still been tested and reviewed very extensively with very strong data pointing towards their safety and effectiveness.

 

With regards to the sacrificing of personal freedoms - I completely agree with the notion that everyone should have the right to decide what they want to put in their bodies. What annoys me, however, is that there is a great deal of misinformation and mistrust of medical experts floating around that causes people to make choices which are not necessarily based on empirical evidence or even sound logic.

[Penguin]

With any luck I’ll be getting my first dose of the vaccine next week.

[DrD123]

The emergency approval is concerning. I'll wait until that last data set is collected/ published/ reviewed.

Both Pfizer and Moderna have indicated they have the 6 months of data needed to apply for full approval - Pfizer can apply this month, and the article I read says Moderna will follow shortly afterward. The approval process apparently takes another 6 months or so, so approval wouldn't be until late in the year.

 

 

https://www.10news.com/news/coronavirus/in-depth-how-full-fda-approval-would-impact-vaccine-mandates-competition

[gkinslow]

I think the term "emergency approval" has negative connotations that don't necessarily correspond to the facts. Even though the current vaccines given emergency approval may not have undergone as comprehensive a vetting process as true FDA approval typically entails, they've still been tested and reviewed very extensively with very strong data pointing towards their safety and effectiveness.

 

With regards to the sacrificing of personal freedoms - I completely agree with the notion that everyone should have the right to decide what they want to put in their bodies. What annoys me, however, is that there is a great deal of misinformation and mistrust of medical experts floating around that causes people to make choices which are not necessarily based on empirical evidence or even sound logic.

 

 

 

You are giving the average American population entirely too much credit. At least 70% of them wouldn't know what "empirical evidence" was if it slapped them in the face.

 

I don't really care what they are basing their decision on. It is their life to live. I'll make my own personal decision and assuming the vaccines are as effective as advertised, then I'll be safe from anyone that chooses not to be vaccinated.

 

If I had a job where I was in contact with people, or had a family at home to protect, or if my health put me at greater risk of serious covid complications, then I would already be in line to be vaccinated. Fortunately none of those are the case and I can safely keep a "wait and see" approach without assuming unreasonable risk.

[amusa]

Wife get's her second (Moderna) this Saturday.

 

I already had both my does of Moderna month's ago. Now I'm waiting to see for the toddler's vaccine.

 

My friend got his first does on Pfizer last week and he was in bad shape. The funny thing is he recover from COVID like 3 month ago maybe longer.

[boxkita]

I've a week to go for my 2nd pfizer. I work in a mask-free place where social distancing doesn't exist. My workmate returns from his Florida family vacation today after no quarantine. Hayfever season started about a week, so I have a runny nose/sore throat 24/7.

 

To say I'm unmotivated about heading into work is an understatement.

[gkinslow]

Can you not wear a mask at work or were you only referring to your coworkers?

[boxkita]

Can you not wear a mask at work or were you only referring to your coworkers?

 

It's a physically challenging job for me. Wearing the mask generally places stress on my system to the point of needing a sitdown. I've been going maskless because the risks were low. ppl are too tired after work to engage in high risk behaviors.

[JJBerk]

2nd Pfizer took me out for a day! Got it Friday. I was fine Saturday, but that night felt like I got hit by a Mack truck. Sunday was a throw away. Monday was a bit better. Finally today I feel pretty normal. So grateful to be vaccinated. (Plus I got the whole 5G thing in my veins!)

[boxkita]

2nd Pfizer took me out for a day! Got it Friday. I was fine Saturday, but that night felt like I got hit by a Mack truck. Sunday was a throw away. Monday was a bit better. Finally today I feel pretty normal. So grateful to be vaccinated. (Plus I got the whole 5G thing in my veins!)

 

i'm looking forward to better cell service on Monday with my 2nd pfizer.