Not ready to let her go, 06 LGT

[Bryan322]

Fellow Legacy owners,

 

After doing a leak down and compression test, I'm diagnosing her with the common Ringland Failure and a weak 4th cylinder. Not sure I want to invest in a short block and all that comes along with it. What if I get a fresh set of injectors, a refurbished Vf40, clean out manifold....or am i wasting time/money? It's a second vehicle, I still enjoy regularly and I'm not ready to get a new/er subie...yet! AP stage 2, 111,xxx want to get some thoughts from the legacy family!

 

 

Thanks guys/gals

[RecklessWOT]

If your piston is fucked up, throwing a new turbo and injectors at it is a huge waste of money. With only 111k on the car those parts should not need replacing anyway.

 

From my understanding with a ringland failure the car should still run fairly normally for a while at first, though it will start burning a lot more oil (which can foul plugs and o2 sensors). But if it has been broken for a while, after time it will cause excessive wear to the block and that's when the compression loss happens. You must have beat this car pretty hard to get it to that point so early.

 

If you have already decided that you're definitely not going to get a new shortblock or rebuild yours but you want to keep driving it anyway then you should just keep driving it till it dies. Don't waste your money, the turbo and injectors will do literally nothing to fix this issue. It is exactly equal to taking money out of your wallet and putting it in a toilet.

 

And for what it's worth, you really shouldn't need to replace those parts yet anyway. My car has 192k on the original injectors and turbo and as far as I know everything is still fine. I'm gonna check the turbo for play when I drop my DP next week to make sure, but yeah at 111k there should be no reason for it

Edited July 27, 2019 by RecklessWOT

[SageAbkatsor]

RecklessWOT is correct. If it is ringland failure there is no quick fix. Your turbo definitely has nothing to do with it. You could maybe have it tuned to just be as safe as possible from detonation events just to limp it along, but who knows how much time that would even buy you. You would also probably castrate the car's potential in doing so. Again, wasted money.

 

The poor compression/leakdown could be the valves not sealing properly. Why are you jumping right to ringlands? If it is something to do with the valves, you would still have a decent amount of engine work in front of you to get the cylinder heads dialed in again, but it would be significantly cheaper than a new block. You might also be saving yourself from larger failure in the future if things progress from there.

 

I would definitely look into things a little...

[Max Capacity]

Why would you want to keep the car without fixing the real issue ? These car offer great bang for the buck. With that low mileage, a new ej257, have your heads rebuilt, put it back in the car with a few other new things like belts and hoses.

 

Then drive it for the few years. I have over 7 years on my ej257.

 

See my "click here" link in my sig. How to do it right the first time is there.

 

My wagon is so much fun to drive...I can't see getting rid of it, even though a smart person would get a new car by now...Oh, but that's why I have the Spec B. But wait, that's 11 years old...

Edited July 28, 2019 by Max Capacity

[Bryan322]

Thanks for response! The car is a blast to drive, which is why i still have it. As for me hoping i could just buy new parts to "fix" the issue, i kind of new was a silly idea. I needed to hear it from someone else and the forums were my best bet. So thanks haha...It's cheaper, to keep her! Would appreciate some guidance, Id like to start getting some numbers together to start planning to keep her. IAG EJ257 short block, rebuild heads with new hoses/belts? I'd also need a tune or the AP would still be sufficient?? Stock 5 speed, with new clutch (throw out bears were making noise and while apart, replaced clutch 85k) would still work? I'll apologize in advance for maybe being a pain with questions, hope some/all of you will help me through this. I had a bug eye, i had to let go of and not because i wanted to. I want to keep this legacy, I won't be someone who asks for help and end up not going through with the build. i just installed a speed daddy catback yesterday and made me enjoy her again!

 

Thanks guys!!

[SageAbkatsor]

Planning a full engine build is never a bad idea, so that you can understand what things might cost if the worst case scenario is upon you and what direction you want to head if that scenario is realized. But you can just as soon plan for the best case scenario until you know for certain what is wrong.

 

I still think your first step needs to be finding and confirming the point of failure. You may just need a valve adjustment which is a small repair compared to what you are suggesting. My ringland failure was very obvious, as my engine knocked so bad I thought for sure I had spun a rod bearing as well. After teardown my bearing was fine. In some cases of ringland failure you may still have good compression numbers. Your compression test may or may not indicate a failed ringland. Until you know the point of failure, this is all just speculation.

 

Sure, a new short block, rebuilding the heads, etc. will resolve your issue, but that may be an over-repair depending on the point of failure.

 

If I were you, I would try to do more diagnosing first, and in the meantime I would make 2-4 basic plans from here. Best case scenario to worst case. These don't need to be super detailed plans, hell just make the plans in your head, as you still need to find what is wrong with the engine first. But it will at least prepare you for any of the possible diagnostic outcomes, and give you an idea of what the next steps are and what it will cost.

 

Plan 1 ($300-2000). Best case scenario:

You need a valve adjustment. Essentially just a point of maintenance on these vehicles when they have higher mileage and something that should be checked at least anytime the heads are off if it hasn't been done in the last 30-60k+. Not cheap, even if you do it yourself as the valve shims are usually about $20-25 each and you may need, or want, to replace all 16. Maybe you only need 2 or 3 and some can get swapped around. You'll need gaskets too. Probably throw some new plugs at it while things are apart. Add probably 6-8 hours labor I would guess depending on the shop (that assumes this can be done without removing the heads, which I think is the case but I could definitely be wrong). If the heads have to come off, then things are getting more expensive still, but this is all still way cheaper than a new block by a long ways.

 

Plan 2 ($1000-4000). Middle of the road:

Maybe all you need is a valve adjustment, maybe you have a dropped valve guide or some additional damage is found and you need a machine shop, or maybe you want to go further for peace of mind, or maybe take this as an opportunity to make performance or reliability upgrades while things are getting taken apart. The heads are probably coming off in this route whether you have to do it or not, but your block is in good shape and you decide not to touch it, but maybe you don't know the full maintenance history of the vehicle, or you do, and it is time for timing components, water pump, a new oil pump, etc.

 

Plan 3 ($3000-7000). Failed Ringland, but you are catching it early:

If you do actually have a failed ringland this is where you fall, as your car still runs and drives and doesn't make a bunch of terrible noise. Things are probably not terribly damaged and you are smart to do the work before it gets to that point. There is a good chance your block is still in good enough shape that you just need to throw a piston or two at it if you are going for a budget route. But you have tons of options now as things are apart. You can throw a block at it, but probably don't need to, maybe you do Cyl head work, cams, forged pistons, any and all manner of bolt ons. Have at it.

 

Plan 4 ($5-25k+). Worst case scenario or maybe even best case and you just want to burn money and turn your car into a monster:

Your ringland is shot, your cylinder walls are scored, you have metal in your oil, rod or main bearing failure, your timing has failed, pick anything catastrophic. This does not seem to be your case, but maybe you just want to put a new engine in it for peace of mind, or you want to go forged and put a six speed in it and make something crazy awesome. Or maybe you just hit the lotto. Go crazy.

 

These are just examples and the prices I put next to each plan are not necessarily founded in reality but are probably pretty close. Some may depend on you doing the work yourself. These just give you an idea of plans you might formulate so that you can take action once you actually know what has failed.

 

To answer some of your specifics, the IAG blocks are not technically 255 or 257 as they don't have factory pistons and the stage 1 uses the old style rods, but they all use the new style crank. The distinction is irrelevant. They are awesome, but they are also probably overkill for most applications. I am seriously considering one at the moment as I need a short block, but it is completely overkill for my goals. You can get a new factory block for a little more than half of an IAG block and still safely modify your car for good power. Your heads don't really have hoses or belts per se, but having the heads rebuilt never hurts, nor does installing new hoses and new belts. If you are on a stage 2 AP tune, then you are tuned. Any type of custom tune will be better however, as it will be adjusted exactly for your vehicle and your modifications. Your accessport will allow a tuner to do everything they need to tune your car. You can get an e-tune by working with a tuner over the internet, but the best is to get the car to a tuner for a dyno tune. You should not need to replace your transmission but your clutch will depend on its condition after the 30k or so that you have on it. If the engine comes out, replacing the release bearing would be wise no matter what, the rest of it will depend on your budget, the condition of your parts, and your goals.

 

TLDR; find out what exactly is wrong with the car, then set some goals, then set a budget. From there you will be in a much better position to get help from these forums. Without these things, there is not a lot more that we can do for you except help to trouble shoot

Edited July 29, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

[Tehnation]

have you used a scope to take a look inside? did you do both a compression and a leak down or one of the two? What were your numbers? did you pay someone to tell you it was ringland failure or are you assuming? When my block went I assumed it was the heads... turned out to be ringland failure... be careful about diagnosing! You might end up wasting money.

[NORULZleggy]

Look If you have a daily drive like I do (Mine is a 2010 Taurus 43K miles) then take your time and keep the car. I also have an 06LGT 5MT. I am planning on the worst. I have about all my parts, and am saving money for my local shop to do the work. I went way over board with parts and same with the money I have saved so there is no surprise. Car will be dyno tuned on 91 and 93.

 

I say keep it and have fun. Don't be in a hurry.

[Bryan322]

I did a compression test at home

#1-3 120 psi

#2-4 80 psi

After that, I reached out to Subaru and they confirmed the compression and did a Leak down

# 1,2,3 -10%

#4 - 80%

I was told it would need a short block, that they quoted me at 7k plus and this was about 25,000 miles ago. Not sure if that's them try to do more then needed? I regularly check, add some oil. I'm guessing it could be ring land failure, with the research I've done?!

 

As for goals, I'd like to have it more reliable then fully built. Would like to put a starting budget of $5,000 on it. I believe, while you have parts off/open, replace things, not going above and beyond. Have a few aftermarket upgrades I'd like to do, thinking vf52 top mount, injectors, coils, sway....but want to focus on the heart of the ride first!

Would the ej257 be the best decision to go with, and direct bolt on? Machine the heads and that would wrap up engine work? This is something i want/plan to go through with, hold on to it for awhile, so I want to do it right, but reliable and need to maintain a clean license haha I have a few expenses to finalize. So winter is when i plan to get the show on the road

 

Appreciate your help guys!!

[Max Capacity]

Read my click here link in my sig. But I already said that in post #4.

 

You don't need injectors or coils.

 

Make a list of what you want to do and put prices next to the items.

 

 

The dealers said 7k because that's what there labor rates say.

 

You can order parts on line from other dealers for a discount, also check your dealers web site for parts, they may offer a discount on parts.

[SageAbkatsor]

I think he meant coil overs, as he mentions sway bars right after.

 

That sound pretty standard for a dealer estimate on this work. There is a lot of labor involved and dealer labor rates are usually higher than any local independent shop. You’ll be all of 7k into it to do a short block build properly if you pay for labor, so forget the suspension for now and focus everything on the heart like you said. Also try Heuberger Subaru for OEM parts. Best deals you will find without an employee discount lol.

 

Are you doing the work yourself then, over the winter? Or are you having the dealer do it, or finding an independent shop?

 

OEM Short block - $1700-1800

Cyl head work, valve adjustments, machining, etc. $500-800

OEM timing components - $500 Something like that. There are cheaper aftermarket options, but this is not a set of components I would personally ever cheap out on. Even the gates kits I have heard took a nosedive on quality. But there are probably some that work well, just do your research if you are not going OE. You are overdue for these by mileage and time if they’ve not been done.

OEM oil pump - $150 - perhaps optional, but a lot more expensive than $150 if it fails and you are right there.

OEM water pump - $100 - Probably optional, Subaru water pumps are pretty resilient, but at the same time, you’re right there.

OEM gasket kit - $275

New Banjo Bolts - $25 - could maybe skip these, but why.

Coolant - $50

Oil - $25

Spark Plugs - $50

Silicone RTV - $25?

 

$3400-3800 baseline parts cost - based on Heuberger pricing

 

I would plan an extra $200-500 for other things that come up which will always happen while things are apart. Are your vacuum lines in good shape? Coolant hoses? PCV lines? Did you break a sensor when you pulled the motor? That type of stuff.

 

 

Things only needed if there is any signs that metal has circulated through the oil, which is possible if your ringland fragmented. Again, you’re there, so it’s cheaper to do it now. And a lot cheaper if these don’t get replaced and they knock out your brand new block.

OEM oil cooler $250

OEM OSV x2 - $185

OEM Intake cam sprocket x2 - $300 - these can be skipped if you disassemble and clean them

Turbocharger - New or rebuild VF40 - $400-1200 - skip this if you’re going to just slap yours back on, but that is not something I would recommend. Nor would I recommend just slapping on a used one

 

We can easily exceed $5k in just parts at this point, and this is a stock build. You’re talking about upgrading the turbo? The VF52 is very popular, plan on $200-400 for one that probably is blown and just a core or at best just has high mileage and should get a $400-800 rebuild. Plus you’ll need a protune or e-tune so that’s another $300-1500 (? I have not looked into tuning costs). You should plan on getting a proper tune regardless. I have learned this the hard way. With the turbo upgrade you may need a new fuel pump and your injectors will be near 95% duty cycle from what I’ve read which is not ideal, so injectors too. You mentioned a top mount, there’s another $200-1000, depending on used vs new and which one you go with.

 

Is it a manual? Probably best to throw some clutch parts at it.

Clutch and Flywheel options range from -$400-800 - you can spend more but for a reliability build you shouldn’t.

 

Now start adding your aftermarket mods.

 

Now add labor ($1000 at least probably more like $2000) if you’re not doing it yourself. $7k is not them doing too much, if anything they probably wouldn’t do enough, and you definitely do not want to go through all of this (or spend this much money) and not do enough.

Edited July 30, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

[Bryan322]

Alright fellas, this is getting exciting. I'd post a pic of my smile, but I'd scare you guy and not want to help! I got the car with 52,xxx, so most of the main was done by this guy!

I meant coil overs, sway bars, but suspension is down the road. The heart is my focus! I have a few mechanic buddies, I'd reach out for help and they work at dealerships. I plan to ask them if they can purchase some/all of these OEM parts, at a dealership rate?? EJ 257 will bolt up, little upgrade and just need a tune?!

What i've done last 15,000 miles:

Spark plugs

Timing belt, water pump, thermostat

throw out bearings

stock OEM struts

Front control arms and bushing

front axle boots

clutch flywheel and all bolts/gaskets

valve cover gasket

been religious with fluid change intervals

CNT catted downpipe

Speed Daddy catback

 

I'll plan to have a shop do Cyl head work, valve adjustments, machining. Hope/plan to do the rest with help...fingers crossed. I enjoy mechanics, graduated with automotive degree. No longer a career though, my passion!! While I'm involved in heart surgery, I'll plan to do the VF 52 refurbished , DEATSCHWERKS 740CC, DEATSCHWERKS 255LPH FUEL PUMP, Subaru oil cooler, mishimoto throttle body, perrin turbo intlet hose, group N engine mount, not sure what OEM OSV x2 is?? Can i just remove the Banjo bolt screen?? Have all the upgrades in my ebay cart like 1,4xx plus tax.

Not sure where I will go for a tune, but plan to search. I'm in north Jersey, if any suggestions are close. Worrying about all the parts right now, the tuning will happen!!

 

Thanks again y'all

[Max Capacity]

You need to reach out to Mike at http://www.AZPinstalls.com

 

http://azpinstalls.com/web/

 

Follow what he say's. You can tell him I sent you.

[SageAbkatsor]

OSVs are also known as AVCS solenoids. They are the diagonal solenoids on the back of the cylinder heads that control VVT