3.6R in 2018/19 vs 2.4T in 2019/20+

[Pilot1226]

Hi,

 

I originally posted this on the Outback forums, and I'm trying to get as many opinions and points of view as I can, with the idea that I have as much information as possible when I purchase.

 

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Until the Ascent reveal, I was pretty much set on getting a 2018 or 2019 Legacy 3.6R. I currently drive a 2011 Outback 2.5 Limited, and I'm growing a little frustrated at the lack of modern comforts as the rest of my family upgrades and I see things first-hand. There's nothing wrong with my Outback now, but I'm in a position where I can afford something a little sportier and newer, and want to take advantage of it while my car has a little bit of value left in it. I won't qualify for the guaranteed trade program because of a softball-sized dent in my trunk lid, and I will accept a non-GTP trade in value as long as it's not absurdly low.

 

First, I know I want a car with more power. To me, I think the 2.5 in the Outback is underpowered, primarily during acceleration. I know the Legacy is a little bit lighter and more aerodynamic so the difference isn't as pronounced, but I still want the stronger engine. I know either the 2.4 Turbo or the 3.6 would help here. I also like doing my own routine maintenance. I know that the 2.5 is slightly easier to maintain with the top-mount filter, but I don't mind crawling under. I know the spark plugs are a beast on the H6. I'd plan on putting the Fumoto on the new one either way.

 

I also want the modern tech, like streaming bluetooth music, CarPlay, and EyeSight (primarily for Adaptive Cruise).

 

My expectation is that the 2.4T in the Ascent will trickle down into the top-tier Legacy and Outback, and maybe even the Forester going forward. I don't think this'll happen until 2020 when they do the refresh for the new generation, but it could happen in 2019. I've heard from multiple sources that Subie can't wait to drop the H6 because it's killing their CAFE rating for the economy mandates.

 

So, I know the EZ36D in the 3.6 is tried and true, and it's tuned for cruising. I believe that lower RPM's means less wear and tear on the engine, so in my mind, I'd rather cruise at 1.25-1.5k on the highway instead of 2.0k+. I like that it's a simpler machine being NA instead of Turbo, and it runs quieter, and I've found it's actually less expensive to run in terms of 87 octane vs 93 octane for the premiums in the turbo.

 

I don't know if the 2.4T in the Ascent will run 91(93) octane or be tuned for 87. Has anyone any concrete data for this? I don't think I saw it on the brochure.

 

I also believe that the Turbo requires more frequent OCI's since Subaru used to always consider Turbos on the "Severe" schedule. So I'd probably OCI at 3k on the Turbo, which is fine. It's cheap peace of mind.

 

That being said, I also like the idea that the 2.4T reaches peak torque at 2k rpm, so you've instantly got the "go" you need. But, at higher RPM's and highway speeds, it would indeed be noisier than the 3.6 would be.

 

The way I see it:

 

3.6R

 

+2018, possibly 2019 has the EZ36D, which is essentially tried-and-true technology.

+NA engine, less complicated machine, one less part to break.

+Possibly longer OCI's. I run around 5k on my 2.5i now with M1HM. I'd probably do the same.

+5w30 is the requirement for the 3.6R, which seems less likely to burn off compared to the 0w20 in the FB engines

+Cheaper to run with 87, assuming the Turbo requires 91(93). Premium fuel is about 50-60 cents more per gallon here.

 

-More oil for OCI (an easy 6.9 qts)

-Spark Plugs are a beast, and I would probably take it to a shop to do.

-Older frame design but still has top marks in IIHS.

 

2.4T

+2019 or possibly 2020 with refresh

+Global Platform

+Newest Features and Tech (Ventilated seats in Ascent, maybe they'll be in the Touring or Limited trims?)

 

-New Engines sometime have growing pains

-Turbo 4 cylinder gets more stress than an NA 4 or 6

-No benefit to turbo at highway cruising speeds, only when you accelerate.

-Possibly requires Premium octane (91-93)

-Possibly needs a 3000 mile OCI instead of the 5k I run on my 2.5 NA / would run on my 3.6R NA

 

 

I love my Outback, but I'm looking for something a little sportier compared to this, but I do need more room than the WRX offers or I might consider that. I do have two kids in booster-style car seats in the back, and my wife has a third row SUV that is our family vacationmobile so I don't foresee ever using this for a major trip. It's for me, occasionally all four of us, but never packed to the gills. Essentially this is a commuter, but I want to have fun doing it, and don't really take advantage of the utility that the Outback offers.

 

Yes, I'll work on her getting an Ascent once her Honda Pilot is paid off. She has the same concerns as me about first MY vehicles.

 

Thoughts, criticisms? Thanks.

[ammcinnis]

Thoughts, criticisms?

 

"The easiest person in the world to fool is yourself." ~ Richard Feynman

 

I'd rather cruise at 1.25-1.5k on the highway instead of 2.0k+.

That choice is not available in a Gen 6 Legacy. Calculated engine RPM at 70 mph:

 

2.5 (OE 17 inch wheels/tires) = 2196

2.5 (OE 18 inch wheels/tires) = 2185

3.6 (OE 18 inch wheels/tires) = 2020

 

I also like the idea that the 2.4T reaches peak torque at 2k rpm, so you've instantly got the "go" you need.

That difference might be significant with a manual transmission, but not with a decent CVT. Besides, the torque curves of most modern VVT (variable valve timing) street engines are nearly rectangular from 2000 rpm to redline. Even the "lowly" FB25, with VVT on the intake side only, produces greater than 80% of its peak torque at 2000 rpm.

[Pilot1226]

I see. So what are you suggesting, I’m overstating the benefit of the 3.6 cruise as well as the acceleration of the 2.4T? Are you also suggesting the 3.6 is not necessary due to the behavior of the FB? (I don’t tow)

[ammcinnis]

So what are you suggesting ...

 

I'm suggesting that any analysis should be objective, and based on the best, most accurate data available ... i.e. don't jump to conclusions.

[Pilot1226]

I'm suggesting that any analysis should be objective, and based on the best, most accurate data available ... i.e. don't jump to conclusions.

 

Thanks. I appreciate the analytical approach. Unfortunately, there's a lot of emotion in this for me with the prospect of a new vehicle, so part of the reason I posted this thread was to help "objectively" look at things rather than emotionally/subjectively.

[Yoda_One]

You are over analyzing a purchase. Life is made of decisions and experiences all with their excitement and let downs. There is never a perfect decision just stepping Stones through a rolling river. If you like the vehicle and it fulfills your needs then buy it, if not just move on. I rather make a 100 decisions with 80% success rate than just 1 perfect decision. This in turn always keep my cup 1/2 full than (fi)1/2 empty.

 

Laughing at oneself and with others is good for the Soul![emoji2]

[Brisvegas]

Hi,

 

I originally posted this on the Outback forums, and I'm trying to get as many opinions and points of view as I can, with the idea that I have as much information as possible when I purchase.Thoughts, criticisms? Thanks.

 

Re your post. I have some very similar thoughts. I have a 3.6 Legacy and am very happy, but if the Ascent ever comes to Oz (which it may not unfortunately) I'd be really seriously considering it.

 

I like Rowlette's advice ...... and I'll be taking that on board for my next decision

[ammcinnis]

I appreciate the analytical approach. Unfortunately, there's a lot of emotion in this for me ...

 

Both emotion and objectivity are valid components of a complex decision, such as when purchasing a new vehicle. Often the challenge is not to confuse the two.

 

This in turn always keep my cup 1/2 full then 1/2 empty.

 

Sounds like your cup is twice as big as it needs to be.

[Learjet45]

Here's how I see it and would choose to approach it if it were me -

 

1. Do you care about tuning/potential for power upgrades? A lot of people on the forums are probably thrilled about the new engine. If it makes it to the Legacy and other models, you can bet tuners will be out there making parts and tuning solutions to increase power. This might not be a big concern for you.

 

2. Do you think you're likely to regret purchasing now once the new model comes out in likely 2020? I like having the newest, latest, greatest everything. When they added high beam assist and rear automatic braking to the '17, it made me want a '17. The changes to the '18 like new headlights, new stereo with Android Auto/Apple CarPlay, and other styling changes make me want the '18. I am still very happy with my '16, but I can't help but wish I had the newer model.

 

If the answers to both questions are yes, then it's probably best to wait. Getting the new model will mean you can enjoy it for longer and not worry about regretting it. The turbo engine will almost certainly offer more potential for power upgrades than the 3.6R.

 

If you aren't concerned with either, I see no reason not to purchase now. The 3.6R is a great engine for cruising, it's got plenty of power for some "get up and go", and it's incredibly smooth. There are plenty of nice features in the current model to keep you satisfied for a long time.

[upstater]

odds are strong you won't see the 2.4 DIT in a Legacy.

 

2.0 DIT, currently in the WRX, will be detuned and provided with a less aggressive SI Drive.

 

2.4 DIT, maybe for the STI... but then they will boost it a bit more, so that the STI continues to outperform every other Subaru.

 

But don't despair, the 2.0 DIT provides comparable power to the current 3.6R, and in the WRX, provides better acceleration than the current 3.6R, due to the more aggressive CVT SI Drive programming.

[Otonielen]

Thanks. I appreciate the analytical approach. Unfortunately, there's a lot of emotion in this for me with the prospect of a new vehicle, so part of the reason I posted this thread was to help "objectively" look at things rather than emotionally/subjectively.

I’m debating the same thing. I think I’m going to wait until next summer when the 2019 (they probably won’t change anything for 2019) comes out and try to get a good deal on a 2018. I feel like the 3.6 would be more reliable and cheaper to own than the new turbo. Plus I don’t looking at the ascent I don’t know if I want that new interior design of the newer Subarus.

[Pilot1226]

You are over analyzing a purchase. Life is made of decisions and experiences all with their excitement and let downs. There is never a perfect decision just stepping Stones through a rolling river. If you like the vehicle and it fulfills your needs then buy it, if not just move on. I rather make a 100 decisions with 80% success rate than just 1 perfect decision. This in turn always keep my cup 1/2 full then 1/2 empty.

 

Laughing at oneself and with others is good for the Soul![emoji2]

 

I agree with you it’s just a thing. But, aside from my house, it’s probably the most expensive thing I’ll buy. And considering depreciation it’s not something I like to buy often. I’m hoping for this next one to last me 10 years. I’ve been salivating over EyeSight since they came out but financially and mentally couldn’t justify trading a car that was only a few years old.

 

Here's how I see it and would choose to approach it if it were me -

 

1. Do you care about tuning/potential for power upgrades? A lot of people on the forums are probably thrilled about the new engine. If it makes it to the Legacy and other models, you can bet tuners will be out there making parts and tuning solutions to increase power. This might not be a big concern for you.

 

2. Do you think you're likely to regret purchasing now once the new model comes out in likely 2020? I like having the newest, latest, greatest everything. When they added high beam assist and rear automatic braking to the '17, it made me want a '17. The changes to the '18 like new headlights, new stereo with Android Auto/Apple CarPlay, and other styling changes make me want the '18. I am still very happy with my '16, but I can't help but wish I had the newer model.

 

If the answers to both questions are yes, then it's probably best to wait. Getting the new model will mean you can enjoy it for longer and not worry about regretting it. The turbo engine will almost certainly offer more potential for power upgrades than the 3.6R.

 

If you aren't concerned with either, I see no reason not to purchase now. The 3.6R is a great engine for cruising, it's got plenty of power for some "get up and go", and it's incredibly smooth. There are plenty of nice features in the current model to keep you satisfied for a long time.

 

Thanks. I’m not into modding. I do like having the latest and greatest tech but sometimes that tech is frustrating when it has glitches. Having a Subaru with some obsolete tech has made me realize that the approach they had works: not bleeding edge tech, but established tech. I like that everything just works.

 

 

odds are strong you won't see the 2.4 DIT in a Legacy.

 

2.0 DIT, currently in the WRX, will be detuned and provided with a less aggressive SI Drive.

 

2.4 DIT, maybe for the STI... but then they will boost it a bit more, so that the STI continues to outperform every other Subaru.

 

But don't despair, the 2.0 DIT provides comparable power to the current 3.6R, and in the WRX, provides better acceleration than the current 3.6R, due to the more aggressive CVT SI Drive programming.

 

The issue I have with the 2.0 is that it requires Premium fuel which costs more to run (mpg times cost per gallon) compared to the 3.6 despite the 6 having lower economy, and the fact the 2.0 has carbon buildup issues on the back of the valves because of the DI. I’ve heard rumors that the 2.4 borrows tech from a Toyota and the one they use in the BRZ that uses port plus direct injection which negates the carbon buildup.

 

So the 2.0 would be a deal breaker for me.

 

Thanks for all the replies. I am leaning towards the 6.

 

Our Honda has a substantial loan payment until summer 2020. While we can afford another payment for my car, it would be “preferable” not to have another liability. Going for a 6 means I might have to push the time table up from what was going to be next fall or Spring 19 to next spring as they may be discontinued.

[Pilot1226]

I’m debating the same thing. I think I’m going to wait until next summer when the 2019 (they probably won’t change anything for 2019) comes out and try to get a good deal on a 2018. I feel like the 3.6 would be more reliable and cheaper to own than the new turbo. Plus I don’t looking at the ascent I don’t know if I want that new interior design of the newer Subarus.

 

The thing I would caution here is that the 3.6’s are harder to find period. I got myself in a situation at end of model year when I got my 2011 OB and “rushed” to buy it. I wish I had done more research. Not that I think my Outback was a mistake, just that I think I would have done my homework and got either a 12 or got the 3.6.

[Otonielen]

That’s a good point. I’m going to try to see if I can lease the car and just get one this March. I feel if I lease the car I can get the car sooner and if the 2020 is so great I’m able to get out the 3.6R easily.

[Pilot1226]

You know why that’s an idea to consider. Get a lease with no intention of returning it except if there’s some type of life altering thing that appears in the Gen7 I’m not tied to it.

[Otonielen]

Exactly

[hkshooter]

I went with the 3.6 for most of the reasons you mentioned. Better performance, doesn't work so hard, much, much more smooth and quiet running. I'm happy and wouldn't change a thing. We're I to ditch my 16 right now it would be for another H6 in an 18.

 

When the H6 is gone and it's time to replace my car I'll drive a new Legacy. But if it's lame in the gonad department or sounds anything like the current 2.5, especially cold, I'll skip it and buy a Toyota.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Brisvegas]

When the H6 is gone and it's time to replace my car I'll drive a new Legacy. But if it's lame in the gonad department or sounds anything like the current 2.5, especially cold, I'll skip it and buy a Toyota.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

 

Same here.

[upstater]

 

The issue I have with the 2.0 is that it requires Premium fuel which costs more to run (mpg times cost per gallon) compared to the 3.6 despite the 6 having lower economy, and the fact the 2.0 has carbon buildup issues on the back of the valves because of the DI. I’ve heard rumors that the 2.4 borrows tech from a Toyota and the one they use in the BRZ that uses port plus direct injection which negates the carbon buildup.

 

So the 2.0 would be a deal breaker for me.

 

Thanks for all the replies. I am leaning towards the 6.

 

Going for a 6 means I might have to push the time table up from what was going to be next fall or Spring 19 to next spring as they may be discontinued.

 

well, if I were you I would wait to see what is coming down the pike, then make up your mind. If you really want a 3.6R, try to find an unsold one that they are trying to move to make room for whatever new Legacy is getting released. You can probably save a few thousand that way...

[Pilot1226]

I contacted corporate today. They're reaching out to engineering/management to see if they can find the information and if it's okay to release to the general public about the fate and timeline of the EZ36D as well as if the 2.4T is going to be tuned for 87 or 91(93), as well as whether or not it would trickle down into the Legacy & OB as a replacement engine for the EZ36.

 

Stay tuned!

 

@Upstater

 

My plan is to monitor closely the New York (Javitz) Auto Show in January and the Chicago Auto Show in February. Previously Subaru has used these two events to announce any changes for the next model year. If they're going to get rid of the 6, I'm probably going to accelerate my plan at this point to get the 3.6 in the Spring.

 

The goal with then be to reduce the time of overlap of two car payments: I still have 32 more loan payments for the Honda Pilot. I figure if I get a factory order in by March of 2018, it'll be June by the time it gets here. While it's not ideal to overlap for 2 full years, we could make it happen for a car I really wanted and could see myself in for a very long time. With any luck there might even be a 0% financing offer for longer terms, which I'd consider to spread the payments out farther.

 

And hey, once the new Legacy's paid off, I'll work on the Misses to get an Ascent. #DrivewayGoals

[dgoodhue]

I suspect Subaru corporate is not going to give out future EZ36 information. That kind of information is usually pretty guarded and released only through official channels such as press releases and auto shows.

 

Usually the mid cycle yearly updates for the Legacy are announced at New York in April. The new 6th Gen introduction was done in January IIRC.

 

As for which car to buy I think it depends on you. This is how I would do my pro/con list.

 

Pro 2.4DIT

More Torque

Better Fuel Economy

Potentially more tunable (once the aftermarket catches up). This may or may not be desirable.

 

Pro 3.6R

Simpler and likely more reliable

Tried and true design

 

The 2.4DIT that in the Ascent is rated for 87 octane and should be a non factor

The 2.0DIT and 3.6R currently have the same 6k Oil Change Interval and use the same 5w30 oil.

 

For the reliability part, it depends a little bit on how long you keep you cars. If you get rid of them before 100k, you liley aren't going to experience much of difference in reliability.

 

If I was buying a Legacy, I would probably wait. If I was buying Outback, I might pickup up 3.6R (I need one vehicle for towing).

[08110]

3.6R if you can find them and don't mind the extra oompf. Plus peace of mind for a more bulletproof engine.

[inthedeck]

I'll throw a kink in there, for you. Next year, Subaru plans to release 50th anniversary cars in all models. Maybe they will debut in early 2018. If not, best time to buy one is end of month...especially on a slow sales month.

 

Ultimately, I went with a 2017, no eyesight, and it's been great thus far. Wind noise, crappy tires, and an uncanny amount of dead bugs on the windshield. And the tech in the 2018 3.6R is the latest, and it's typical Subaru. As you said, it just 'works' and I'll leave it at that.

 

Like you, I knew the 3.6R would have more ("easier") power, and, I wanted to rest my left leg for a few years before buying another manual...WRX/STi/Etc.

[Pilot1226]

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I received a response from corporate yesterday, and they said that they are not permitted to disclose the information regarding the octane for the new 2.4T along with the plans going forward for the 3.6 engine. They suggested what I already know - to keep an eye on the media.subaru.com page around January/February. This is when they announce any major changes in/around the time of the New York and Chicago auto shows.

 

So, here's hoping if they change it, there's still time to run a factory order through. For all intents and purposes, I'm ready to go - test drove both an 18 Legacy and Outback - and will pull the trigger immediately upon word of the 3.6's termination.

[Brisvegas]

test drove both an 18 Legacy and Outback QUOTE]

 

I'd be interested in your opinion of the 2018 Outback. My next vehicle (and I hope that's a Subaru) MUST have a heads up display. I read where the Ascent has one, and so I'm hoping that in the not too distant future that the Outback gets it as well.