Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I have a mostly stock 05 LGT 5EAT wagon other than a nameless 5 inch axleback. Here is the mod list expected: Invidia catless Up Pipe - need to do 2.2kohm resistor mod to prevent CEL? Invidia catless down pipe - plug fouler? Cobb V3 accessport K&N panel filter Stock intercooler, turbo, intake inlet and box. Is the accessport off the shelf tune stage 2 or any other off the shelf map going to fit well with these mods? Will the stage 2 tune set the O2/EGT monitors to ready or do I have to futz with the resistor and non fouler? Will these tunes positively effect the 5EAT such as increased line pressure or shift points or anything? I have had turbo foxbodies tuned, but those never had to pass emissions inspections (monitor scan only - no sniffer), and those were also a chip insert required into the ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 Just saw the links to available maps. If I ran an 07-08 LGT 5EAT stage 2 map (because of cat in the up pipe is not there and I will have deleted mine), would this be more beneficial? Will the lack of a cobb air filter box assembly hinder me a noticeable amount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relative4 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Invidia UP is crap, get a low mileage STi off Nastyoc. Yes, do the 50 cent resistor. Don"t use a K&N filter, stay OEM. The Cobb stage 2 tune is fine, but it's optimized for a catted DP. Please consider a catted DP, for the sake of the world and the billions of people sharing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 I was told any aftermarket Cat (usually poor quality) turns rock solid and impedes flow worse than the factory unit. This still allows for higher probability of cat breakdown into the turbo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relative4 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Just saw the links to available maps. If I ran an 07-08 LGT 5EAT stage 2 map (because of cat in the up pipe is not there and I will have deleted mine), would this be more beneficial? Will the lack of a cobb air filter box assembly hinder me a noticeable amount?Do NOT use a map that was not written for your car. The Cobb stage 2 for your car works perfectly with a catless UP. However, a proper e-tune from a first-rate tuner such as Cryotune or Tuning Alliance is the best money you'll ever spend on your car. With stock turbo and fueling, an aftermarket intake buys you nothing but noise. And a risk of running lean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relative4 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I was told any aftermarket Cat (usually poor quality) turns rock solid and impedes flow worse than the factory unit. This still allows for higher probability of cat breakdown into the turbo?Poor quality is indeed poor quality. Solution: don't buy poor quality. I've been running the same Perrin DP for maybe 5 years, flows like new. They no longer sell it, but Grimmspeed is great. There is zero chance of any downpipe cat send debris upstream to the turbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 This may repeat things you have got already, since I was offline. AP OTS maps officially are for catted downpipes only. You might see overboost spikes. Then again, with the catless pipes, your car will stink and you may regret it later. I'm sure the other people sharing the road will appreciate you having a high-flow cat. Cobb or Grimmspeed catted downpipe is better than Invidia. The cat itself is better made and it is placed farther downstream so not so much heat in the engine bay. K&N panel filter offers no tangible gains over a good quality conventional air filter. Stock air intake box is fine. Seems like everyone has been programmed to go aftermarket without any actual benefits. They make money for the seller, and make some noise, but that's it. OEM catless uppipe is better. It has a flex joint and fits well. Solid SS uppipes have had problems with cracking. Resister mod is easy to do. Many CELs can be disabled via software, but I would still do the resister mod. ODB2 monitors take time or driving cycles to be ready no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 Read the post too quick and totally missed the DP in your statement, I thought you meant up pipe cat. I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 I failed to notice that the stage 2 required a catted down pipe? Does it somehow state that the catted downpipe from cobb will garuanteed no CEL? I thought they garuanteed that because their stage 2 tune does eliminate the rear O2 from showing off the CEL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Hardware Requirements: Stage1 - Otherwise stock vehicle with the following modifications*: Intake Requirements: Stock airbox and stock air filter only Exhaust requirements: Stock exhaust or upgraded cat-back exhaust Hardware Requirements: Stage1 +SF - Otherwise stock vehicle with the following modifications*: Intake Requirements: COBB SF intake system Exhaust requirements: Stock exhaust or upgraded cat-back exhaust Hardware Requirements: Stage2 - Otherwise stock vehicle with the following modifications*: Intake Requirements: Stock airbox and stock air filter only Exhaust requirements: Upgraded catted turbo-back exhaust https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/PRS/pages/98843715/Map+Notes+for+2005-2006+Legacy+GT+and+2005-2006+Outback+XT Not sure which CEL you have in mind. There is a CEL related to the exhaust temperature sensor in the stock uppipe for 2005. Resister mod takes care of it or can be disabled in tune. The CEL for 0422 "Catalyst below threshold" should still be operational if you have a catted downpipe. IIRC, it does not need to be disabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 http://Https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2027536 Post #7 a cobb tuner stated their stage 2 tune disabled p0420. I think that is my worry. So technically, if I remove the cat entirely there should be no CEL at all for the cat efficiency because the rear O2 to check efficiency is passed? I see COBB states 16.5psi peak, and taper to 13psi. I guess my curiosity is if I had the same setup (catless up, hi flow catted down, stock filter and box), what would most e tunes net peak at and taper to and is there any improvements that can be made for the 5EAT via tuning of this nature? If stage 2 does not require a catless up pipe, how does their tune improve any from a catless up pipe? I would assume the catless up pipe just make for quicker spool (nearly negligible)? Are there any recommendations for a catted downpipe other than $600 cobb? I saw lachute DP catted, but that was also $700. I do not see a catted perrin DP for the automatic unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I have a mostly stock 05 LGT 5EAT wagon other than a nameless 5 inch axleback. ... Here is the mod list expected: Invidia catless Up Pipe - need to do 2.2kohm resistor mod to prevent CEL? Invidia catless down pipe - plug fouler? Cobb V3 accessport K&N panel filter Stock intercooler, turbo, intake inlet and box. ... Will these tunes positively effect the 5EAT such as increased line pressure or shift points or anything? It seems like everyone else has the rest of your questions covered, so I'll answer this one. In short: no. The COBB OTS maps are very general and basic. IIRC, when I had the OTS stage 1 map on my wagon, trans behavior was not the slightest bit different. Once I got a pro tune, my tuner played with the trans related tables to get my 5EAT to shift better. It helped, but by that point I was stage three and pushing 300 at the crank at redline on a 200K mile trans. Needless to say, it didn't last long. I slowly lost gears starting with fifth and moving downward. Here's my recommendation: -Check your ATF. You could probably use a few "drain and fills" before you start putting more power through it, if the trans hasn't been maintained before. Look up that process in the transmissions sub-forum. For Stage 0/1/2: (UP, DP, Intake, Catback, Pro-Tune) -Get a good pro tune from someone that not only understands turbo Subarus, but more than just Imprezas and Foresters. A tuner with B platform experience will benefit you more here as the Lgeacy GT and Outback XT, AFAIK, were the only models to come with the 5EAT. Someone like Cryotune or Tuning Alliance will have the knowledge to get the trans working well with the rest of the powertrain, and ultimately save you from more gear slippage than needed etc. -Get an ATF cooler! This is unnecessary if you're daily driving, and live in a relatively flat area. But... if you plan on pushing your Legacy at all, a trans cooler will benefit your trans quite a bit. You'd be surprised how little time it takes t overheat a 5EAT on the track. And how long it takes all 13qts of that fluid to cool down. An ATF cooler is a very good safe gauard against wear and tear. That being said, it needs to be done right. Having an un-controlled air to liquid ATF cooler in the winter will lead to just as much wear and tear as not having one on the track. Look for Hexmods' post on properly plumbing a thermostat controlled ATF cooling loop. All in, this costs less than $120, and is fully worth it. For Stage 3, and beyond: (Turbo Swap, Fueling Modifications, capability of 300+hp/tq) -Most certainly all of the above. With regularly scheduled drain/fills. -Center differential bushings. These are hard to come by but help alleviate a very common issue. Search "5EAT center diff explosion". I won't elaborate too much on this one as it's probably irrelevant at this point, considering you aren't stage 3. -Modified valve body. Yup, just like old Ford/Chevy/Mopar slushboxes, we have a TransGo kit too. This kit is the only way to mechanically up the line pressure. It has its benefits and drawbacks, but I don't know of anyone that's done this and regretted it. The kit greatly reduces shift time, and really firms things up. The downside to this is that kit's are hard to find, and the process can be intimidating. It's not as simple as an american trans where you just swap a few servo springs and a valve here and there. The entire valve body, which is three layers, has to come apart to replace a few valves and springs. I would honestly recommend this to anyone that has a "stage 2" or above setup, just from a longevity standpoint. Hope this helps. MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 I will have to re inquire with the folks from cryotune as they did not answer my question about assisting in transmission performance improvement via tune. The vehicle will be (as your picture looks), autoX'd very little, other than that just a daily driver. So it seems for stock turbo (as far as I plan on going..... for now), proper ATF flush and fill and filter, ATF cooler are good ideas for this lowly power level. I guess I hear mixed opinions on intakes, some tuners say leave factory, others state COBB for OTS tune and everything in between. I need to find s good forum/book for local AutoX as I have not the slightest rules other than I have marginal room for mods for stock class and this will put me out of that class.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 http://Https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2027536 Post #7 a cobb tuner stated their stage 2 tune disabled p0420. I think that is my worry. So technically, if I remove the cat entirely there should be no CEL at all for the cat efficiency because the rear O2 to check efficiency is passed? I see COBB states 16.5psi peak, and taper to 13psi. I guess my curiosity is if I had the same setup (catless up, hi flow catted down, stock filter and box), what would most e tunes net peak at and taper to and is there any improvements that can be made for the 5EAT via tuning of this nature? If stage 2 does not require a catless up pipe, how does their tune improve any from a catless up pipe? I would assume the catless up pipe just make for quicker spool (nearly negligible)? Are there any recommendations for a catted downpipe other than $600 cobb? I saw lachute DP catted, but that was also $700. I do not see a catted perrin DP for the automatic unfortunately You should probably just check with Cobb to be sure on which CELs are disabled on particular OTS maps. There are practical reasons why the Stage 2 boost targets are set where they are which have to do with limits of stock fueling and the efficiency of the stock turbo. It does you no good to try and push more boost than your fuel system can support or run your turbo into the flamethrower region where it's heating up the intake air too much. That leads to running lean and detonation which is extremely bad for the engine. The main point of the catless uppipe is for safety to get rid of the catalyst upstream from the turbo. There may be a slight increase in rate of spool but the amount of exhaust gas going through the turbo is the same regardless. Not really a power mod, then. The downpipe situation is different. When you reduce backpressure, the turbo can produce more boost. But just spinning the turbo faster is not necessarily going to net you more power. You need enough fuel, and the turbo has a range within which it is operating efficiently. All the better quality catted downpipes seem to be priced similarly. You can try and catch a sale or a group buy and save $100 or so. Another thing you can do is watch the classified forum and buy a take-off in good shape for maybe $375-400. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 I feel this is where part of my problem is, I tend to replace everything I take off in the process of modding (talk about wallet breaking). If the up pipe nets me no proper increase and forces me to "jerry-rig" the resistor mod, I would almost prefer to leave the factory unit. But then there are horror stories of the cat unloading into the turbo... (what sort of probability is this? Less than 0.5%? If so, not significant enough for me to worry), I am at 122k miles. I am looking for that cobb combo of reliability, safety, and cost effective. I do not desire to over tax everything else. Where does 85-90% injector duty cycle net me? If I'm at 230-240whp I will be happy. (Presume 280-300 crank HP?) I just replaced the sending unit, but it is still a factory pump capacity. It's hard to find that happy point, and that's what debates like these help me with - perspective! Also, I have asked tuners about this code shenanigans and cannot get a straight answer as of course it is illegal to do such things in regards to inspections and emissions.... But of course my vehicle is "off-road only..... kinda" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Probability of uppipe catalyst wrecking your turbo (and engine) is non-zero and seems to go up as the power level increases. A take-off OEM catless uppipe can be bought for $50-70, well worth it. The resistor mod is not really jerry-rigging. The only purpose of the EGT sensor is to monitor health of the uppipe catalyst. No catalyst, no need for EGT sensor, simple. 07+ models don't have catted uppipes. Wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relative4 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 The resistor mod is not what I'd call a jerry-rig. I suppose technically it is, but it's really more of a simple, ESSENTIAL fix to an obsolete design problem that will eventually kill your car if not treated. And it's easy to do it in such a way that it looks at least as neat as stock. Make the mod and forget it. It's really not a big deal, unless you fail to do it. The basic stage 2 package recommended above is a wonderful combination of reliability/safety, performance, and cost-effectiveness. It will give you right around the power numbers you quoted, with substantially better engine life than stock. If you want to get the most bang for your buck, you could get a used, unmarried Accessport V2 for half the price of a V3. The leftover cash can pay for half a catted downpipe or all of an e-tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broke Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I am having a problem with my account being all in German... However, I apologize for posting in a separate account. I declare a Jerry-rig as I have no 3D modeled plastic piece, or proper OE cover that will fit over the EGT sensor after I shove a resister into it haha. I understand the logic for why there is no pre-cat on the 07+ and I agree that it is a good idea, but for simplicity sake, it is like we are taking a wire and falsifying schematics. Instead of giving it the fact we are giving it a value... If I am fine with attempting a catless downpipe I should be fine with this - but I guess that explains my illogical logic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 There is a language menu at the bottom of the page, scroll and select a new language (Englisch, ja; Deutsch, nein). Catless with OTS tune ist nicht gut. Oberbooster und earschplittenloudenboomer! No cover? Insert resistor, apply blob of silicone sealant, cover with electrical tape or heat shrink wrap. Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broke Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 It is ironic that after translation from German to English, I scroll back up and read "ist nicht gut", and became very confused; but basic understanding became "is not good. overboost and kaboom" haha. So in consensus, OE 07+ catless up pipe (legacy gt, or STi), catted downpipe (cobb preferred but not required), and the simple accessport will net me the desired outcome. Expectations if I find it all used ~$1k. Not bad for a gain of 20% HP, 30% torque? And to come, an ATF cooler, approx. $120.. Resistor mod, and Cobb AP should result in no thrown codes from anticipated mods, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 Can the AP read ABS codes too by chance? Also, it seems my factory inlet tube is too short (I'm assuming shrinkage due to dehydration). Due to the bolt fixing the intake in the front of the intake, the rear clamp onto the turbo cannot go back far enough. It is on it/over it, but when tighten the clamp it is just too far off and while it tightens the tube comes off the turbo housing no matter how much I try/pry. Is it worth getting aftermarket or should I just buy another factory inlet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relative4 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 A lot of people love aftermarket inlets. I find their poor fit a PITA, went back to stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Can the AP read ABS codes too by chance? Also, it seems my factory inlet tube is too short (I'm assuming shrinkage due to dehydration). Due to the bolt fixing the intake in the front of the intake, the rear clamp onto the turbo cannot go back far enough. It is on it/over it, but when tighten the clamp it is just too far off and while it tightens the tube comes off the turbo housing no matter how much I try/pry. Is it worth getting aftermarket or should I just buy another factory inlet? Unfortunately it cannot, however you do have the option of using the built in factory code readout. I forget how to do it, but it's outlined somewhere in the 4th gen forum. That readout will give you chassis and body codes. I believe the ABS codes are "C" codes. Regarding the inlet being too short... I don't really see how that's possible, unless the turbo is not positioned properly or the current inlet is the wrong part. The inlet will not shrink as the material it's made out of(perhaps a polyether TPU material?) does not have those properties. Quite often the problem becomes that the end of the inlet becomes so greasy and pliable from age, that it refuses to stay on the turbo when clamped down and eventually rips. I would suggest an OEM replacement as aftermarket ones have been known to be challenging to install properly dies to different vacuum line connections. MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasted Potential Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 I saw (wish i remember the name of the OP) the post stating... Turn the vehicle off, lights off. Vehicle to accessories, lights on, trip/odo 3 times. Lights off, trip/odo 3 times. Lights on, trip/odo 3 times. All in under 10 seconds. Did not work for me after sitting in a parking lot lighting up a wall for 20 minutes... maybe I need a helmet, but I could not get it to work. I also just sent BrenTuning a message inquiring if they can do an open source tune (I'm about five hours away - long drive, but will be worth it if I can avoid marrying and unmarrying an AP for one use...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazzAvi8r Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 echo!!! find a used STi catless up pipe. I think I got mine for $70 shipped. the 2.2k ohm resistors were 2x for $0.33 at my local electronics store. I actually cut the wires off the EGT probe and soldered in the resistor in line. that way I can always get a new EGT sensor if I ever decide to go back to stock to sell the car. this also allows the plug to actually be connected to something instead of just siliconing the wiring harness. the catted downpipe is definitely the way to go. I originally wanted to go with a catless version just for cost, but these guys on the forum convinced me to go with a catted version and I'm super thankful I followed their guidance. I ended up buying a new Cobb catted downpipe (using military discount). While I was swapping out the exhaust components, I went ahead and got the full Grimmspeed exhaust gasket kit as well. those things are amazing and well worth the $80. the only issue I had was the gasket that goes between the downpipe and the borla exhaust didn't fit properly. I've read something about a conical adapter or something but I haven't really looked deep in to it. aftermarket intake is pointless until you hit about the 350whp range. no noticeable gains and just makes the car noisy. the free flowing catted downpipe allows you to hear the turbo spool just fine. my wife actually approves! as for the inlet issue, if yours is broken or not fitting anymore, go buy an OEM replacement. stay far far away from aftermarket stuff concerning the intake at this point. stage 2 OTS tune from Cobb will do just fine for your needs, but I'll tell ya, a proper tune is worth its weight in gold. without going in to the technical details of closed loop/open loop cycling, MAF scaling, injector duty cycle and impedence, etc, going with a pro tune will enable your car to be much more drivable. better throttle response, more efficient driveability, fuel economy, etc. the OTS map is very vague and generic; a pro tune will get your maps scaled to your specific car. ignition timing will be better, boost scaling more applicable to your car and its health, cleaner parameters, etc. because every car is different (even with the same mods and miles), the only way to truly get the best out of your car is via a pro tune. Dave at Cryotune is definitely one of the best. if you haven't heard back from him yet, send him an email. he tends to stay pretty busy and hardly gets an opportunity to check the forums and his PMs. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.