2005 LGT Wagon Test drive on TheSmokingTire

[covertrussian]

Nice to see our cars being respected and liked well still! Is the owner on her?

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wQaAe9b4nY]Modified 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon - One Take - YouTube[/ame]

[Rhitter]

"I was reading on the forums where someone was complaining about the size of these cars."

 

I know I spend too much time here when I know exactly what thread he was talking about.

 

Interesting that the owner knows how to rebuild the engine, but doesn't know what you need for a 6spd swap. Wheel hub assemblies - don't think you need those.

 

I wanted to submit my car to him to drive, but it never felt "ready".

[WRX USA]

I was thinking the same thing about wheel hub assemblies.

[henhead]

He mentions that it rides nicely and its on BC's. I can't be the only one that thinks they really don't ride very nicely at all...

[Phate]

"I was reading on the forums where someone was complaining about the size of these cars."

 

I know I spend too much time here when I know exactly what thread he was talking about.

 

I'm pretty sure the 90's accord comparison was my post, actually. Not too many other members on here have an irrational obsession with those, or have both a 97 accord and an LGT in their driveway.

[henhead]

I've got a 95 accord and a LGT in the driveway. Though the poor accord hasn't seen much attention since it was stolen and recovered.

[Phate]

I've got a 95 accord and a LGT in the driveway. Though the poor accord hasn't seen much attention since it was stolen and recovered.

 

Did you do dumb things to yours as well? With a fat rear sway bar, and a 2 inch drop, they handle stupidly well.

 

Mine's apart getting new brake/fuel lines, a fuel tank, and some polyurethane bushings.

[MilesA]

He mentions that it rides nicely and its on BC's. I can't be the only one that thinks they really don't ride very nicely at all...

I thought the same. It looks like a pretty crappy ride to me, too stiff. People confuse a lack of body roll with good handling. Long suspension travel and compliance is a real benefit on a road car.

[Rhitter]

Although, he (TST) rides in enough cars that for him to say it rides nicely, means on that road it probably did ride nicely.

 

It's not like he is used to crap cars with bottom of the barrel suspension set-ups.

[MilesA]

Matt always tries to be tactful and complementary. I like the car overall, don't get me wrong, but look at the way it reacts to minute imperfections in the road surface (around 13:40). The suspension should absorb those imperfections without moving the whole car around.

[Kojak]

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/smoking-tire-modified-2005-legacy-gt-wagon-264439.html?p=5677290#post5677290

[covertrussian]

He mentions that it rides nicely and its on BC's. I can't be the only one that thinks they really don't ride very nicely at all...

 

I've had good luck with BC's and Fortune Auto's on other cars. Riding much better then drop in springs or Tein Basic's. I think most people don't adjust them right and or overslam them.

 

Also the springs that both BC and Fortune's come with are cheap and rough. If you replace them with Swift's it will be MUCH more comfortable.

[henhead]

I've had good luck with BC's and Fortune Auto's on other cars. Riding much better then drop in springs or Tein Basic's. I think most people don't adjust them right and or overslam them.

 

Also the springs that both BC and Fortune's come with are cheap and rough. If you replace them with Swift's it will be MUCH more comfortable.

I wondered how much the Swift's changed things. I've looked around but I haven't found a ton if info from people that run the combo.

 

What Swift's did you go with?

[henhead]

Did you do dumb things to yours as well? With a fat rear sway bar, and a 2 inch drop, they handle stupidly well.

 

Mine's apart getting new brake/fuel lines, a fuel tank, and some polyurethane bushings.

Nope that's the one car I've owned and done nothing to surprisingly enough. It's treated me darn well considering the 240k mileage.

 

My buddy on the other hand modified the hell out of his 95 coupe.

[Rhitter]

I wondered how much the Swift's changed things. I've looked around but I haven't found a ton if info from people that run the combo.

 

What Swift's did you go with?

 

Seems like Swifts make all the difference. This guy went from 8kg to 16kg and still thought it rode nicer than with the BCBR springs.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/swift-spring-upgrade-bc-br-coilovers-224281.html

[covertrussian]

I wondered how much the Swift's changed things. I've looked around but I haven't found a ton if info from people that run the combo.

 

What Swift's did you go with?

 

Seems like Swifts make all the difference. This guy went from 8kg to 16kg and still thought it rode nicer than with the BCBR springs.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/swift-spring-upgrade-bc-br-coilovers-224281.html

 

 

That was two separate clauses heh, BC's/Fortunes have ben fairly comfortable to me even with cheap springs that they ship with. But Swift's did help a lot too.

 

The key is in proper spring selection (people go too stiff usually), making sure they are valved for those springs (BC and FA do this by default for free), and then finally not overcranking the adjustable valving. Run the lowest setting that keeps the car from having a floaty/underdampened feeling.

 

As for rates, I would run 5k/8k, since it's closest to the stock front to rear stiffness ratios.

 

SWIFT's are more accurate and are much more linear under compression. This post is what sold me on SWIFT's years ago. In that test he found Swift's increase by 5lbs per inch, while megan racing ones increased by about ~50lbs-100lbs per inch.

 

On my Infiniti weekend warrior, I run 5k front 8k rear on FA500's and it's much more comfortable then any drop in spring combo/shock combo (KYB, Koni yellow, Bilstein) that I've tried (most of the springs were also half the current spring rate).

[Dishwasher]

Covert if you had to do it all again, what spring strut combo would you do for daily driver, no track time? I was thinking H&R plus Konis.

[Rhitter]

 

On my Infiniti weekend warior,I run 5k front 8k rear on FA500's and it's much more comfortable then any drop in spring combo/shock combo (KYB, Koni yellow, Bilstein) that I tried (most of the springs were also half the current spring rate).

 

How was the actual performance though? Really surprised that Bilstein etc wasn't that comfortable.

[shralp]

Myles at Racecomp suggested I go with the Swifts to upgrade my Tarmacs (KW's) when I bought them to upgrade my Bilstein Rev A / Whiteline Control series spring set up on the track car. Swift must have some magic juju

[Phate]

Covert if you had to do it all again, what spring strut combo would you do for daily driver, no track time? I was thinking H&R plus Konis.

 

I have no idea what the Bilstein HD's/B6's feel like for the LGT, but I love the bilstein/Eibach combo I have on my accord. Since I'm on specBillies with Swifts right now, I'll probably try HD's on the LGT next.

[xtea]

That was two separate clauses heh, BC's/Fortunes have ben fairly comfortable to me even with cheap springs that they ship with. But Swift's did help a lot too.

 

The key is in proper spring selection (people go too stiff usually), making sure they are valved for those springs (BC and FA do this by default for free), and then finally not overcraking the adjustable valving. Run the lowest setting that keeps the car from having a floaty/underdampened feeling.

 

As for rates, I would run 6k/8k, since stock is not far from that. SWIFT's are more accurate and are much more linear under compression. This post is what sold me on SWIFT's years ago. In that test he found Swift's increase by 5lbs per inch, while megan racing ones increased by about ~50lbs-100lbs per inch.

 

 

On my Infiniti weekend warior,I run 5k front 8k rear on FA500's and it's much more comfortable then any drop in spring combo/shock combo (KYB, Koni yellow, Bilstein) that I tried (most of the springs were also half the current spring rate).

 

What do you think of 8k/8k swifts FA 500's on a wagon? 8k is standard front rate for FAS 500s on legacy. I might have time to change it yet.

[shralp]

I'm running 10k / 10k swifts on my Tarmacs per Racecomp's suggestion on my track car. Not that I would ever run those on a street car I'm still amazed at how well it does when I do drive it on the street. Stiff yes but not jarring...

[covertrussian]

Covert if you had to do it all again, what spring strut combo would you do for daily driver, no track time? I was thinking H&R plus Konis.

 

If going to coilovers is off limits, I think Stock Springs on Stock like valved shocks . Our LGT's suspensions are actually vary good at handling, I have thousands in suspension work in my Infiniti and the Legacy will take corners at faster speeds (only other mods LGT is rearward LCA bushings and rear swaybar). If anything the Legacy could benefit from better shocks, but stock springs are fine.

 

Let me explain on why stock suspension will be superior to any drop in spring and shock combo, without geometry rework. Warning this is gonna be wordy with some math involved .

 

Lets start with the springs...

Stock springs are rated at 195lbs front, 308lbs rear, after we apply motion ratios of 0.95 for front and 0.85 for rear, we get wheel rates of 175lbs front, 223lbs rear. Wheel rates is what matters here, since that's the rate that the wheel actually sees.

 

I can't find H&R spring rates, lets use SWIFT's drop in's (which I'm not advocating for, SWIFT universal coilover springs is what I'm advocating for) as an example though. SWIFT's are 241/370lbs F/R, with wheel rates of 218/267lbs. SWIFT's wheel rates are 19.7% stiffer up front, and 16.5% stiffer in the rear. This would be a great combo on stock height springs, but no one wants to buy lowering springs that don't lower .

 

SWIFT's lower your front by 1.2" (people are claiming it's actual closer to 1.75-2"), and rear by 1.0". This is where issues begin, strut suspensions have limited travel, usually around 3" before strut bottoms out. But to make things worse, when you lower the car your roll center drops faster then your center of gravity, which increases the roll couple. Roll couple is the distance between the center of gravity and the roll center, the longer it is, the more leverage it has on the car, increasing body roll (think of increasing the length of the breaker bar).

 

This is where drop in springs fall flat on their face, sure they lowered your CG by 1", but they lowered your roll center by say 2" (sorry no definite number for LGT's), which means your car will actually body roll more now. To combat the increase in body roll you need stiffer springs, much stiffer springs, probably 50% stiffer not a meagerly 20% stiffer.

 

Now the problem with stiffer springs is, they reduce your mechanical grip, since stiffer springs can't conform to road irregularities as well as softer springs. The general rule with springs is run the softest springs without bottoming out, but with that said we do want to limit our body roll on our camber loosing strut based suspension.

 

The next issue your struts/shocks. All drop in options are valved for stock spring rates and heights (read: stock travel). Not only are your shocks now are underdamped, they also don't have as much travel, which means they will bottom out and ride on bump stops (which have infinite spring rates). This all leads to a crappy ride and crappy handling, since underdamped shocks can't do their work as well over bad roads = loss of traction.

 

 

Effects on Geometry..

Struts will gain camber at first, but then quickly loose camber as you exceed a certain roll angle. Our stock suspension geometry is actually good at maintaining camber (I get less tire roll over on the LGT then my Infiniti which has a "superior" multi-link suspension).

 

For example, say our cars roll 2" at most in a turn and knowing that Subaru built the car for 2" of travel, for which it gains camber, but after that we start loosing camber. When you lower the car by 1", you've now lost 1" of camber gaining geometry and since your drop in springs are not nearly stiff enough to compensate for the added body roll, your car will now roll 2.5". That means you gain camber for the first 1" of travel, but then for the next 1.5" your loosing camber. This all equals to loss of traction since the the car will now ride on the outside edges of the tire, we are back to increasing the spring rates to compensate for this (and back to loosing mechanical grip). This is where roll center kits come into play, they restore the roll center height to negate the bad of lowering the car.

 

 

Finally my suggestions

Sorry for the book, I hope it comes in useful. I no longer do mods just to do them, I now first learn the science behind it and make an educated decision based on that. Thus I don't want to give a suggestion on a whim, I want you to make your own educated decision too.

 

If you must replace your suspension anyway and you can't go with coilovers, get monotube struts/shocks with the smallest drop springs (STI Pinks seem to offer the smallest drop at 0.59" f/r). They are a tad stiffer (218/330lbs) but not enough upset good monotube shocks like Bilsteins HD's. Besides that everything else overlowers the car for stock geometry and strut/shock valving.

 

Now this is why I love coilovers, I can get them in monotube, valved to my spring rates and I can run then at near stock height, which keeps my geometry happy, but with stiffer springs to reduce body roll induced camber loss. Plus all of the springs are universal, so your no longer locked in to Legacy specific ones.

 

How was the actual performance though? Really surprised that Bilstein etc wasn't that comfortable.

 

Very mediocre, because Bilsteins are valved for stock spring rates and heights. This is the crux of the matter with drop in spring combos, unless your wiling to spend $$$ to get custom valved setups, coilovers will be more comfortable and handle better out of the box.

 

 

Myles at Racecomp suggested I go with the Swifts to upgrade my Tarmacs (KW's) when I bought them to upgrade my Bilstein Rev A / Whiteline Control series spring set up on the track car. Swift must have some magic juju

 

Their manufacturing process is much better then any other springs on the market. They don't seem to sag and wear out either. I've heard of racing teams having to replace their springs every season on other springs, while SWIFT's maintain their height and rates season after season. SWIFT even mentioned that they are missing out on yearly buyers since their springs outlast others.

 

 

What do you think of 8k/8k swifts FA 500's on a wagon? 8k is standard front rate for FAS 500s on legacy. I might have time to change it yet.

 

I would maintain the stock front to back stiffness ratio (37% stiffer rear spring rates, which is 21% stiffer rear wheel rates), unless your car is very loose.

 

Going to 8k/8k will results in a more understeer prone car. Even going to 6k/8k will result in 25% stiffer rear spring rates but only 6% stiffer wheel rates. 5k/8k will be the closest at 38% stiffer rear spring rate (22% wheel rate).

 

But this is all speculation and guesstimates, without knowing your car's natural frequencies, it's really hard to throw out a number.

[xtea]

I would maintain the stock front to back stiffness ratio (37% stiffer rear spring rates, which is 21% stiffer rear wheel rates), unless your car is very loose.

 

Going to 8k/8k will results in a more understeer prone car. Even going to 6k/8k will result in 25% stiffer rear spring rates but only 6% stiffer wheel rates. 5k/8k will be the closest at 38% stiffer rear spring rate (22% wheel rate).

 

But this is all speculation and guesstimates, without knowing your car's natural frequencies, it's really hard to throw out a number.

 

I didn't understand a lot of what you wrote. I need a youtube video with animations and a dryboard.

 

I don't know if my car is loose or not. Strange that many coilover company's jack the spring ratio for our cars. Most suggest front biased or equal spring rates except for bc br which does 6/8. Fortune suggested 8k/6k but I increased the rear because it seemed off and chose the 8k/8k. I wrote fortune auto via their spring selection service and told them about our front to rear stock ratio and they thought my choice was prudent.

 

I'm going to feel like an ass if I ask josh to change my order again. In regards to understeer. I have whiteline front and rear sways. Could I get away with just putting the stock front sway bar on? Would stiffening the rear damping and softening the front give me the same effect?

[covertrussian]

I didn't understand a lot of what you wrote. I need a youtube video with animations and a dryboard.

 

No worries, for year I didn't either. I've spent a lot of time in the last couple years studying suspension theory and designs trying to get my Infiniti to handle better

 

I don't know if my car is loose or not. Strange that many coilover company's jack the spring ratio for our cars. Most suggest front biased or equal spring rates except for bc br which does 6/8. Fortune suggested 8k/6k but I increased the rear because it seemed off and chose the 8k/8k. I wrote fortune auto via their spring selection service and told them about our front to rear stock ratio and they thought my choice was prudent.

 

I'm going to feel like an ass if I ask josh to change my order again. In regards to understeer. I have whiteline front and rear sways. Could I get away with just putting the stock front sway bar on? Would stiffening the rear damping and softening the front give me the same effect?

 

 

If you don't know if your car is loose (oversteer), then your car is more undresteer prone (like most stock cars). Basically if your rear end is not kicking out on you grip limits (especially in the rain), then your car is not loose.

 

For years cars were built with stiffer front springs then rear. It was thought that because of the weight of the engine, you need more spring up front. But in reality, which ever side has more spring, will carry more load and give out sooner. Front end giving out first = understeer, undresteer is "safer" for an average driver, simply let go of the gas and front tires should regain traction.

 

Our legacies have stiffer rear springs, which in theory should make the cars oversteer more, but as we all know our legacies will still understeer quite a bit. I think since our cars have multi-link rear suspensions (which gain camber in compression), they were able to get away with stiffer rear springs and not make the cars be tail happy (unsafe for general populace).

 

Coilover manufactures are still stuck to the old formula of making the front springs stiffer then rear. They are not R&Ding every setup on every car, I think they just do an educated guess honestly. My Infiniti came with 20% stiffer rear springs stock too, but all coilover manufactures wanted to run similar 8k front /6k rear setups. I'm glad I didn't, because it wasn't until I ran 5k front, 10k rear did I finally get the car to be looser while racing.

 

I think another reason they might advocate for stiffer front is, they are expecting people to be super low (and slow ), with increased roll couple, this would require stiffer front springs to keep them from riding on bump stops and bottoming out.

 

 

On a flip side FA lets you run +/- 2k rate changes without needing to revalve. So if you get the 8k/8k's, later you can buy 6k SWIFT's for your front and they will be within range still.