Lexus IS250 & IS350 ( AWD )

[emulous]

The LGT and the IS 250 may have the same demographic as far as age, while the same buyer might consider both, his/her desire to own either one would be highly aimed towards one or the other but not both. What I mean is, the IS250 is trying to grasp the low end of the market who want a Lexus. How many folks actually cross shop a Lexus and a Subaru? Not many. They may be both "sports" sedans, but the Subaru buyer is still looking for value (despite SOA's intention to appear otherwise), which makes the more powerful engine and awd combination much more appealing to the Subaru shopper. Those that don't really care about performance and more about "image" would most likely think the IS250 awd is the "value" Lexus, but that definition of value is different from the value defintion of the majority of Subaru buyers.

 

The design of the LGT Wagon with turbo charged engine and awd is what drew me to the Legacy. There was nothing else out there that offered awd, manual transmission with that much horsepower in a wagon or hatchback configuration. My choice was simple, I thought of the V50 t5 awd, but the Subaru was cheaper with more HP, so I didn't even go test drive it. I would of waited to by it, but SOA's stupid decision not to offer a manual tranny in the LGT Wagon is what made me buy a 2005 before I really needed a new vehicle.

 

If the IS350 offered a manual tranny and awd, I think there would be a lot more cross shopping between the two, and I'm willing to bet, folks would be more than willing to pay the extra money for the Lexus.

[LittleBlueGT]

A friend at work (same tastes in car as me) was about to plunk down the cash for a IS350 but declined when it was confirmed "no manual in the 350 only 250".

 

An IS350 with AWD would strongly persuade me as would a G35x w/ a manual.

[Deer Killer]

The cars (LGT/IS 250) are in the same general price range and target the same buyer demographic. Not directly comparing the two engines/drivetrains would be "stupid".

If you pick a number that is the maximum you could possibly afford, then compare all cars around that number, THAT is stupid..

[IwannaSportSedan]

What about 'determining a price range, and then evaluating products in that range' is stupid?

 

Maybe a 330Xi manual would fit the bill better, but is not financially feasible? Why consider it?

 

Why consider a WRX TR manual because it is AWD and 5MT, when one could afford a LGT, IS or G35, and wants the extra features and space...

 

Maybe the G35 and IS, S60, X-type, 500, MS6, etc... don't make the cut, but they are comparable. Comparing other AWD or other near-lux sport sedans in the same price range is fully expected. Some live up due to features, others do not, due to someone's preferences.

 

For those like horsepower, AWD, and a manual transmission, the Legacy is about the only thing on the market, aside from the faux-wheel-drive MS6.

 

And for a Lexy to be marketed as a Sport sedan, with a 2.5 V6 (I've owned a car with a 2.5 V6, a 93 Probe GT, and it was not a torque monster. Smoother than a turbo, but not nearly as powerful.)

 

It should be compared to the 2.5i SE Legacy. However, in terms of price, the Legacy 2.5 GT is closer in price and feature list, and has much more power, with mild tuning, probably more than the IS350, for less money, AWD, and with a Manual trans option.

 

How is comparison not appropriate?

[eles1]

If you pick a number that is the maximum you could possibly afford, then compare all cars around that number, THAT is stupid..

 

I have no idea what you mean by this.

[Subarex]

As someone who owned both a 2002 WRX MT and a 2002 IS300 MT I feel I must comment. The Subaru was fun, fast and great in the snow. The overall quality however (Crappy Clutch, Squeeky Windows, Really Bad Stereo, Tinny Doors, Crappy Tires) was not there. Also the Subaru dealerships and SOA in general treated me like a red headed stepchild everytime I whispered the word warranty. I had clutch shudder etc that they refused to fix anything. When some schmuck rear ended the REX and I got my insurance check I test drove the IS. I got the IS300 brand new for $26K out the door LOADED and I must say the Lexus experience is awesome. They really treat their customers right and provide a great deal of value. The IS300 was just put together so well. The stereo rocked, the car came with awesome wheels and tires and everything just felt right. I would buy the new IS350 anytime.

 

As for AWD, I go snowboarding in VT almost every weekend and my Blizzak WS-50s took care of me just fine, even with RWD.

 

Subaru understands performance and if I didnt live in NYC and didn't need a car I would probably buy the LGT 2.5T, but I would never turn down a Lexus product. They may not be the fastest, but they are the smoothest. Also, im not sure how the Legacy GT does over 70 MPH but the stock WRX was a heavy breathing slug. Thats when the IS300 started getting going. I have heard that the IS350 with Sport package is a rocket ship (0-60 in 5.1)

 

Just My 2 Cents, take for what they're worth.

[Euclid]

^^ You're comparing an econo car to a luxury car? Of course the luxury car is going to be better. It better be. The legacy is just getting going at 80.

[silverfool]

i looked at both cars. i used to drive a MB CLK which was a 8cylinder machine with stellar performance, great safety stats and nice wow factor. however, i would never own one outside of my extended warranty. so what other cars offer serious performance, 4 doors and reliability?

A4: jeez, i don't care what consumer reports say, this car is just a time bomb...and my understanding is that audi's customer service makes martha stewart seem nice.

bmw 325: still the gold standard but pricey and still with reliability issues. my friends died in the middle of a left turn with oncoming traffic flying at him.

acura TSX: great navi, excellent interior but when the dealer said "you can't even tell it's a 4 cylinder", even my wife laughed.

acura TL: bigger, wide turning circle, and pricey. looks great imho.

g35: man they are everywhere in the OC. i actually do like the look, nice power (still heavier feeling, i know it's got more horses but you'd be hard pressed to tell). and the interiors are a wash between the LGT and it. nissan needs to work harder.

 

so to get on topic, the lexus 250/350- they are a beauty and i bet the interior is unmatched. but i think the 250 takes 8+ secs to see 60 and that's pathetic for a "325 fighter". to ask me to spend 35k on a sports sedan that would run neck and neck with a V6 camry is laughable. now the 350, i'm sure, is a monster. but a spongy ride and a price unlikely to see the better side of 40k? tough sell to anyone whom isn't a diehard lexus fan.

 

that said, my moms es 330 never had one problem in it's 140,000 miles. our last gen TL never had any probs either (save for the torque steer of 220 horses to FWD). looking at all the warranty complaints and other fit and finish issues here really make it tough to back subie over those true luxury marks. they don't make the performance but the other intangibles are hard to argue.

 

i love my LGT, especially when it's firing off the line. but customer service is poor- i had some paperwork issues with the dealer and am still trying to resolve it. They have clearly indicated now that they have made the sale that I'm not a priority. i also had to buy a new frigging center console so i could actually have a comfortable driving position. do our engineers spend so much time tuning the boxer that they couldn't study ergonomics? all that on top of the paint issues and other probs people have mentioned here and I'm a little bummed. granted, tuners and fanatics may overreport or overreact to issues, but we probably take better care of our rides than most.

 

so would i do it all over again? ask me after the forced induction kicks in ;p

[TSiWRX]

Say what one will about their products being uninspired or overpriced (which you actually will *not* hear me say - alas, it remains a point of debate), but one thing remains true from the day that Lexus stepped ashore to current-day.

 

Their customer-service is stellar.

 

Even when I was a pimply-faced 16-year-old taking in my parents' Lexus for service, they treated me like I'm their best customer. Forget the complimentary refreshments - we're talking loaner Lexus' without even blinking an eye at my age or asking for my proof-of-insurance.

 

If I'd have been in the market now for a luxury-sport Q-ship, the new 350 would definitely get my attention.

[Subarex]

Funny, the price came out to be about the same.

 

I wouldnt call a WRX an econocar by any means, theyre actually in the entry luxury pricerange (TSX, IS250, A3 etc). And I wouldnt necessarily say the IS was "better" I loved the WRX, but it didnt always love me back.

 

 

^^ You're comparing an econo car to a luxury car? Of course the luxury car is going to be better. It better be. The legacy is just getting going at 80.

[silverfool]

i think we all would concede there is a difference between being in the luxury range and being luxurious. i've never been inside a WRX so i'm not gonna pretend like i know what it's interior is like but there are lots o' crappy cars in that price range that are far from luxurious.

[Euclid]

Funny, the price came out to be about the same.

 

I wouldnt call a WRX an econocar by any means, theyre actually in the entry luxury pricerange (TSX, IS250, A3 etc). And I wouldnt necessarily say the IS was "better" I loved the WRX, but it didnt always love me back.

 

The WRX is an econo car with a beefed up motor, just like an SRT4. And price is mutually exclusive of what defines luxury. An EVO is a $30k+ car and that sure as hell isn't luxurious.

[SLegacy99]

Alright fellas, what can you tell me about the new IS?

 

My bro has an IS 300, it's RWD and automatic, two things that I hate. Stunning car inside and out, just wish the drivetrain were better. Anyway, my dad couldn't get a deal on his 330xi (off of lease) so he said F BMW and ended spending more money on a newer, but used, IS 250. I was surprised he didn't consult me about it.

 

I don't think he was too happy when I said that they were slow, boring vehicles, but then I've never driven one. I just know that the IS 250 could be a great car if the IS didn't weigh so much. However, Lexus claims a 0-60 time of 8.3 seconds for this model, which they are conservative about the #s they publish. Nevertheless, my 10 year old Legacy could beat that. Furthermore, it boggles my mind that the IS is only available with a MT in the RWD 250 and only available in AWD with the AT 250. I feel like so many people would buy an IS 350 with AWD.

 

This looks like a great car. Direct injection, nav, heated and cooled seats, comfortable. However, I am used to the quick 3 series he has (not my favorite car though) with a 6 speed manual. We've had several Lexuses over the years and they all have been incredibly reliable. The latest, the 400h is an awesome vehicle touting AWD, a 0-60 time under 7 seconds, and a fuel economy average of 26-28 MPG. I hope this IS is as good.

 

I think he will like this car, but this is also the guy who today still raves about his lighweight, FWD Prelude with double wishbone suspension that handled the curves so well. I can't help but wonder if he would have enjoyed a new Legacy GT for what he paid for this IS. Or maybe a little more for a new A4. But the recession is taking its toll on us all and I can understand that.

[Penguin]

Bwahahahahahahahhaha!!!!!!!!!

 

An IS 250? Driven both that and the IS 350. The IS 350 is considerably more fun, but neither of them are a serious threat to the 3 Series at all. The IS is tiny inside and has even less room in the rear than the 3 series, and less headroom in front.

 

He may as well have bought an ES 350..... that is how boring and slow an IS 250 is. Not to get into a bench racing or pissing contest, but my 5600+lb Tundra would smoke your dad's new car.....

 

Bwahahahahahahahahahha!!!!

[SLegacy99]

He may as well have bought an ES 350..... that is how boring and slow an IS 250 is.

That's what I said! This is why I can't understand that there is no AWD IS 350.

 

I will say that the BMW, even with their free maintence, has not been a reliable car. It's not bad, but well too much money was spent on it in 3 years time. Especially the tires. Run flat tires are horrible, I will never buy a single set.

[Penguin]

That's what I said! This is why I can't understand that there is no AWD IS 350.

 

I will say that the BMW, even with their free maintence, has not been a reliable car. It's not bad, but well too much money was spent on it in 3 years time. Especially the tires. Run flat tires are horrible, I will never buy a single set.

 

I have mixed feelings on run flat tires, but mostly given a choice I would do without them. I know a few BMW owners that got rid of them and put on proper tires, said they made a very favorable difference in ride quality. Tire wear was about the same, but anyone expecting a sport sedan with a fairly aggressive alignment set up to be easy on tires is not living in reality.

 

As far as the issue of not having a spare tire, get a can of fix a flat or use the roadside assistance.

[SLegacy99]

I'd be happy enough with a can of fix a flat. Spending $1200 every 15k miles on tires is absurd for a car like the 330. It's not worth it. An M3 I could see. You could get 4 Nitto tires for $800 that would be better. The runflats diminish the quality of the handling and after about 12k miles the noise they make is awful. You can hear the tires from a block away when you should be hearing the inline 6. So the noise inside the car in unbearble. I know some owners who got regular tires and had better luck. Though BMW discourages this.

[Penguin]

I'd be happy enough with a can of fix a flat. Spending $1200 every 15k miles on tires is absurd for a car like the 330. It's not worth it. An M3 I could see. You could get 4 Nitto tires for $800 that would be better. The runflats diminish the quality of the handling and after about 12k miles the noise they make is awful. You can hear the tires from a block away when you should be hearing the inline 6. So the noise inside the car in unbearble. I know some owners who got regular tires and had better luck. Though BMW discourages this.

 

When looking for long wearing tires look at the tread wear rating as a guide, many low profile high performance tires are gumballs. They won't last long, but they will live a spectacular life.

 

Unfortunately some tread designs and tire designs just get noisy once they wear down to a certain point, be they a conventional tire or a run flat. Performance passenger car tires, and all terrain truck tires are notorious for this.

[SLegacy99]

I've never heard tired make noises like these do once they wear.

[Penguin]

I've never heard tired make noises like these do once they wear.

 

I have had tires on several cars make all sorts of humming, screaming, howling noises on various pavement surfaces when they start to wear down. The worst were a Z rated set of Goodyear tires called gatorbacks (forget the real name) those damn things would deafen you on concrete and weren't much better on asphalt. They were reasonably quiet until they started to get worn out, then they were really really loud. Loud enough to drown out the exhaust of my Z28, and that was not a quiet car.

[SLegacy99]

Wow. Those must have been some crappy tires.

[SLegacy99]

I may have already asked you, but I don't remember. Did you have any problems with the 6 speed in your Tundra? I like a good MT by my side, but I did really like the 6AT when I drove the ES 350. However, I heard that some people had problems with theirs after a year or two and well this IS is only a year old. I do recall that Toyota fixed problem transmissions, but I wasn't really paying attention to what the issue was.

[Penguin]

Wow. Those must have been some crappy tires.

 

They wore out like gum erasers, and they were noisy, however they had tremendous grip. So the trade off was great grip for noise and wear.

[Penguin]

I may have already asked you, but I don't remember. Did you have any problems with the 6 speed in your Tundra? I like a good MT by my side, but I did really like the 6AT when I drove the ES 350. However, I heard that some people had problems with theirs after a year or two and well this IS is only a year old. I do recall that Toyota fixed problem transmissions, but I wasn't really paying attention to what the issue was.

 

No troubles thus far with the 6 speed auto in the Tundra, some individuals did have torque converters go bad and Toyota took the entire transmission to study the problem. It caused a vibration that was noticeable inside the cab, something to do with the locking/unlocking feature if I recall correctly. Other Tundra issues have included the infamous bad batch of early production cam shafts (affected 20 vehicles), some trucks have also had issues with the front differential becoming noisy (TSB on this), and the main drive shaft thrust bearing or washers causing a drive line clunk (also TSB). Toyota seems to be fixing the issues without any hassle, although I wouldn't know as my Tundra (knock on wood) has been flawless mechanically.

 

Comparing the 6 speed in the Tundra to the 6 speed in the ES is not really a valid comparison though, at least from a mechanical standpoint as they are drastically different units and have very different design goals. The transmission control units are probably similar though and so far I rarely feel the need to use the manu-matic shift mode at all. The manual shift mode doesn't really behave the same as the Subaru did, so the truck won't hold a higher gear and stay there if it wants to downshift. Kind of annoying, as I know the engine makes enough power to push out the taller gear. That is just a typical Toyota thing though, all their cars and trucks are like that. Overall I highly recommend the 5.7L V8 and 6 speed auto, great combination. Now they just need to put them in an AWD sedan....

[SLegacy99]

Unlike Gm and Chrysler Toyota just doesnt put their truck engines in their sedans. I wonder when they will get the 5.0L into the GS.

 

I think one of two things needs to happen to the base IS.

 

1. It needs to lose 300 lbs.

2. It needs to become the IS 270 or 280.

 

I think that vehicles like this have an ever increasing market, given fluctuating fuel prices. However, the TSX, A4, 3 series have low powered models that are certainly quicker than the IS. I'm just thinking back to our '93 Toyota Previa with AWD and 130 HP. What a turd.