Track Day advice/suggestions?

[hadvw]

So I found that Porterfield DOES make R4-S pads for the rear as well - better match with (anticipated) Willwood + R4-S pads on the front? They're $80 vs $120 for Bobcats. And maybe will arrive faster.

 

I think I need some ASAP, even if I'm not going to the track yet, as I'm getting wear-indicator squeal on the rear, and it's annoying.

 

Centric rear rotors? Cheap or C-tek?

[Th3Franz]

Yeah go r4s rear with centric rotors

[boxkita]

I should of had a bleed valve pressure monitor and I would have reduced pressure as the day wore on. I filled them up to 45 at 55 degrees. My last session it was 85+ out. They were overfilled by the end of the day.

 

But I will lean on others with more experience to say what was wrong with those pressures.

 

I think Boxkita's advice is good. It's just a lot to do your first track day. Even if you aren't doing it every session some amount of monitoring and tracking it is helpful.

 

The PSS are going to be less inclined to roll-over than 225/55 DWS, I would start with lower PSI and monitor it in some abbreviated version of Boxkita's advice.

 

Also, something that was super helpful for me personally is I got a subscription to iRacing and I drove Sonoma raceway over and over again in the configuration of the Track day. Sure the car is going to be different, but it's super helpful for visualizing the track, recognizing tricky corners, understanding the racing line, etc.

 

There was one corner that I consistently spun out and hit the wall on in iRacing. I took it really easy at the corner on the track day. Another member who was with us didn't. And he spun out and hit the wall - exactly like I did many times in the video game.

"Chunking" is the technical term for the look of the tires above. Consider your warranty invalid at this point.

 

More tire pressure controls the amount of rollover.

 

A gauge on the compressor is worthless. spend 50 bux and get a Longacre with bleed valve. Get the lighted digital. You'll never need another one and you'll never have to guess the reading. 0 - 60psi is the correct one with a hose and schrader valve. Don't get dual purpose bike option.

 

The thinner a treadblock is on tire the less tendency for squirm which means less tendency for Chunking. Chunking is high speed wear under cornering that causes the rubber to heat up and fall faster the surrounding rubber. Higher tire pressure lessen roll over (tire sidewall stiffness can't keep tire sidewall upright) . The chalk story will tell you this.

 

In driving sim of your choice pic a track and a car nearest to what you'll be doing set realism to full. Turn on the line. Now practice driving the line. Drive 3 laps and play it back. If you can't follow in a section try again working that section only. Start slow. Speed is not important.

 

When i drive sims, i do 100hours per track. Over and over. My car setup is a near my car setup as possible. It pays off.

[hadvw]

"Chunking" is the technical term for the look of the tires above. Consider your warranty invalid at this point.

 

More tire pressure controls the amount of rollover.

 

I think I understand this part: more pressure, less rollover and vice versa. Which is easier on the tires? I.e. I'm going to be off to start, should I err on the side of a bit too much rollover, or not enough rollover?

 

A gauge on the compressor is worthless. spend 50 bux and get a Longacre with bleed valve. Get the lighted digital. You'll never need another one and you'll never have to guess the reading. 0 - 60psi is the correct one with a hose and schrader valve. Don't get dual purpose bike option.

 

Ok, will look into that.

 

In driving sim of your choice pic a track and a car nearest to what you'll be doing set realism to full. Turn on the line. Now practice driving the line. Drive 3 laps and play it back. If you can't follow in a section try again working that section only. Start slow. Speed is not important.

 

When i drive sims, i do 100hours per track. Over and over. My car setup is a near my car setup as possible. It pays off.

 

Obviously, we have different goals. If I spend 100 hours in total (outside of debating/over-thinking it ) this year in track-related stuff, it'll be bordering on too much time away from family.. I may get 5 hours of track simming and would consider that a lot..

[boxkita]

All tirez have a max cold pressure. Rhitter's 85psi was asking for trouble. like checking your oil, you need to check your tires.

 

Driving sims to learn the track for a newbie? I think its overkill. Especially if not you car and track. If you have 5 hours to spend, spend it at the track in a car. Its so much more fun.

 

Remember when I said "take what I tell you about tires as fact"?

The stiffer the sidewall the less tire pressure you need to prevent rollover (less weight helps too, but trivially ). outside front +10 of door sticker, outside rear +8 of door sticker, inside front +4 of door sticker, inside rear +2 of door sticker. Where outside is passenger for a ccw track and driver for cw track. If track has equal left right corners, use highest numbered side for both sides. That's a good start. Chalk the tires after setting that. Check after first run. If rollover, add 2 psi (regardless of current value) to that tire. Repeat until the chalk doesn't get chewed on the side.

 

Anything else will confuse, if not already done so.

 

The closer to max summer tire you get, the better the above advice will be. If you run Rhitter's tire, look up the max cold psi. You're going to need it. At which point, you need to ask yourself why bot the wrong tires? You dont drive slicks in snow, why drive all seasons on track?

[wpmarky]

depends also how hot the day is. hotter day = start with a lower cold psi. Sonoma is usually moderate weather and i'll start around 34 and end up at 40-42 hot. At Thill, it can get really hot, so i'll start at 32'ish with the same target hot psi.

 

From Rhitter's pics i'd lose a bit of pressure to move the wear a lil more to the edge.

 

You can also use pressures to weak handling (link):

 

If a car is understeering, it means the car turns less into the corner than it should for the steering input. So obviously, the rear tires, which want to go straight have more grip than the front tires which are trying to turn. To solve this problem we can increase the contact patch of the tires that need more help. That means lower pressures on the front, or we can decrease the contact patch size on the tires that have too much grip, so increase rear pressures.

 

For oversteer or loose handling, the front tires have more grip and the car’s back end can’t keep up. So now, we need to increase front tire pressures to make the contact patch smaller (less grip) or decrease rear tire pressures to make the rear contact patch bigger (more grip).

[hadvw]

A gauge on the compressor is worthless. spend 50 bux and get a Longacre with bleed valve. Get the lighted digital. You'll never need another one and you'll never have to guess the reading. 0 - 60psi is the correct one with a hose and schrader valve. Don't get dual purpose bike option.

 

Ok, do you mean the 53006 model? http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1715&prodid=7356&pagetitle=Basic+Digital+Tire+Pressure+Gauge

 

AEM 30-0301 X-series - decent oil pressure gauge? Prosport seem to have lots of reviews that mention "inaccurate". This one is digital (easier to read in a hurry) with warning levels.. I couldn't find a good brand digital with warnings for any cheaper..

[hadvw]

Learning to be a better driver - all of the above are useless unless you improve as a driver. There's an old saying "a fast driver in a slow car will always be faster than a slow driver in a fast car". Don't be a slow driver -

. With that out of the way, get a track day app for your smart phone (Harry's laptimer for iphone and traqmate for Android).

 

Did you mean trackmaster here? Traqmate SEEMS to be (from a little googling) a custom video/recorder box that people are complaining that they spent $1k+ on and was discontinued last summer? Trackmaster seems to be an android-based app. I would imagine my Galaxy S6 (work phone) should be reasonable here..

[boxkita]

Did you mean trackmaster here? Traqmate SEEMS to be (from a little googling) a custom video/recorder box that people are complaining that they spent $1k+ on and was discontinued last summer? Trackmaster seems to be an android-based app. I would imagine my Galaxy S6 (work phone) should be reasonable here..

 

I have this - http://adyno.net/ for my android. Then went to Aim Solo II. Then Aim MXL.

 

Racecapture is a cloud app that's really good. I think you have to buy their hardware tho

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.racechrono.app&hl=en & https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hptuners.trackaddict&hl=en might work for your phone.

[boxkita]

Ok, do you mean the 53006 model? http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1715&prodid=7356&pagetitle=Basic+Digital+Tire+Pressure+Gauge

 

AEM 30-0301 X-series - decent oil pressure gauge? Prosport seem to have lots of reviews that mention "inaccurate". This one is digital (easier to read in a hurry) with warning levels.. I couldn't find a good brand digital with warnings for any cheaper..

 

 

I bought this one, http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1716&prodid=7306&pagetitle=Magnum%e2%84%a2+3+%c2%bd%e2%80%9d+Tire+Gauge , because on sale and had a case.

 

53006 model is good. Buy that.

[wesleyCrowbar]

One thing I found out today that I don't see mentioned often is that stretching is a necessity. Stretch your quads, hamstrings, and do some neck turning drills before and after each session. Stay hydrated while stretching as well. Not cramping up makes driving easier

[hadvw]

Got a general brake question for everyone.. And one more specific, but somewhat OT - it's my own thread, so I'm ok with OT - if you don't want to answer, that's fine.. I won't think any less of you

 

First, about brake fluid, boiling, etc: just to make sure I understand the issues/trade-offs involved: fluid boiling is bad, because it turns liquid to gas, and gas is compressible, so brakes will fade/become mush. Old brake fluid is bad because it absorbs moisture over time, and wet boiling point is less than dry boiling point for most (all) fluids, meaning boiling happens (much) sooner. What about accidentally boiling new fluid - does it "go bad" all at once if boiled? Because it absorbs a lot more moisture while being boiled, so it's basically done for? Or, if you bleed the brakes to get the gas out, will it go back to being almost as good as if it was never boiled, but obviously not as good as new? I.e. if you're at a track event, and you realize you boiled the fluid - is it safe to bleed the brakes and then go back out again, or is your day basically done, and you need to flush with new fluid? What about for the drive home? Generally safe enough for that?

 

Second: we took our '15 Town and Country on vacation last week (Bay Area to Ventura to Palm Springs including Joshua Tree Park, etc and back - nice trip). The van's generally fine, actually drives decently, except for, as always on this generation, brakes. Not as bad as the '08 Grand Caravan we had. But, after repeated brake applications, such as up/down hills, etc, the brakes started to shudder/shake. There was still braking force left, they weren't totally faded, so it makes me think NOT fluid. Although that could probably use a flush. When I started engine braking to reduce the load on the brakes, the shuddering went away/was improved. When cold, it's mostly or totally gone. Wife drives the car most of the time, so I can't say for sure it's 100% gone. But when cold, it's fine. Only when hot do the brakes start to shake. The '08 GC, once the brakes started to shudder, did it all the time even stone cold until we replaced them with Raybestos parts.

 

Does this sound like pads, rotors, calipers, or something else? My best guess is pads heating up, leaving uneven deposits, but going back to normal when not super hot? Or possibly (I read about this with Corvettes, I think), the caliper getting hot and bending/flexing a little? Wasn't driving like Mario Andretti, but maybe like John Andretti .. Will check the wear on 'em soon, and replace as necessary with "fleet and tow" parts, which seem to eliminate the problem... Just curious about diagnosing the issue. Felt/sounded like the fronts, but could have been both front and rear.. R4-S pads are probably overkill?? (only half joking)

[hadvw]

Found some Rota Slipstreams, 17x8.5, +48, $450 for 4 (formerly used for autocross). According to the wheel FAQ, I can run 245/40/17 on these without rubbing?

 

Worthwhile? About half of the cost of new TR Motorsport wheels. Probably also somewhat heavier..

[Th3Franz]

I'm not an expert when it comes to brake fluid, but here's my take based on my experience.

I think of two terms for brake fluid: boiled and cooked.

If you over heat your brakes and boil the fluid, you'll create gas bubbles, which compress very easily. This causes a mushy pedal and is easily fixed by just bleeding out the bubbles and keep going.

 

If you really get your brakes hot for a sustained period, or use the same fluid for multiple track events and over heat them, then the fluid gets cooked. It turns a much darker color and may even chemically break down. It seems to me when this happens the fluid is more prone to boiling and a flush is needed. Brake fluid naturally takes on water as it ages, so its boiling point is constantly decreasing.

 

So, TL;DR, if you boil your brake fluid, bleed the calipers and get the bubbles out.

If you cook your brake fluid, flush it until clear fluid comes out of the calipers again.

 

Rotas are fine for getting started. that's a good price.

[boxkita]

There's driving on street and driving on track. On street, you can deal with diminished performance. So compromised brake fluid is ok for awhile.

 

On track, you have so much else going on that anything that detracts from optimal performance should be dealt with sooner.

 

When I boiled my brake fluid I'd already been running hot for a number of laps. After the boiling, I had no brakes. I was done for the day. If I had time and wherewithal, I could have bled them before heading home.

 

Keep in mind by the time you get the brakes hot enough to boil, everything else is crazy hot. My rotors were glowing. Wheels, tires, brakes were too hot too touch for a long time. Not to mention, I'd cooked the bearings, too.

 

Unless you are racing for money, pack up and go home.

 

 

The juddering on the mini-van? Welcome to pads & disks getting hot. Putting brake ducts on the mini-van would help keep the temps down. Or you can upgrade to a BBK. Mini-van around town is exactly the conditions a BBK would help with. Lots of hard stops with short drives in between. So not alot of air flow to cool off the systems.

[hadvw]

There's driving on street and driving on track. On street, you can deal with diminished performance. So compromised brake fluid is ok for awhile.

 

On track, you have so much else going on that anything that detracts from optimal performance should be dealt with sooner.

....

Unless you are racing for money, pack up and go home.

 

Makes sense.

 

The juddering on the mini-van? Welcome to pads & disks getting hot. Putting brake ducts on the mini-van would help keep the temps down. Or you can upgrade to a BBK. Mini-van around town is exactly the conditions a BBK would help with. Lots of hard stops with short drives in between. So not alot of air flow to cool off the systems.

In this case (as I tried to describe), it wasn't around town - it was cruising through the hills of SoCal @75-85.. up/down/up/down, accel/brake/accel/brake, etc.. Our '15 already has the "Heavy Duty" 2-piston calipers with 330mm rotors, instead of the older 302mm rotors, single-piston smaller calipers, etc that came on pre-2012 FCA vans/CUVs. So it's already kind of a BBK. Sounds like I should just go for higher temp pads when it's time to replace them..

[boxkita]

In this case (as I tried to describe), it wasn't around town - it was cruising through the hills of SoCal @75-85.. up/down/up/down, accel/brake/accel/brake, etc.. Our '15 already has the "Heavy Duty" 2-piston calipers with 330mm rotors, instead of the older 302mm rotors, single-piston smaller calipers, etc that came on pre-2012 FCA vans/CUVs. So it's already kind of a BBK. Sounds like I should just go for higher temp pads when it's time to replace them..

 

So the brakes didn't judder before your trip?

 

Higher temp pads mean they don't start working until they reach the higher temp. Until then, they don't work as well. Adding brake ducts will keep the current ones cooler longer negating the need for higher temp pads.

[hadvw]

So the brakes didn't judder before your trip?

Nope.

 

Higher temp pads mean they don't start working until they reach the higher temp. Until then, they don't work as well. Adding brake ducts will keep the current ones cooler longer negating the need for higher temp pads.

 

What I meant was, pads with a larger temp range than stock.

[hadvw]

Dang. Been nagging at me for a while - to quote someone else, I'm an auto-chondriac - I always think there's something wrong with the car. I had a compression test done today (just to make sure I'm not throwing good money after bad), and got a not-so-good result. I was hoping it would just be a reasonable result, and I could stop worrying.

 

Details here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/low-compressioni-nexti-261821.html?p=5623172#post5623172

 

Summary: 80/85/75/70 psi. Seems to be losing coolant as well. Found some oil (slightly gunky) near the throttle body when swapping TMICs, but found I left the OEM TMIC-to-TB hose really lose (not really tightened at all) when swapping for SMOG in November, and figured maybe under boost, it was pushing oil out there.. Hadn't seen it before this one time. Wiped it off, and checked 2 weeks ago and didn't find any more - will need to check again.

 

Burnt valves - seems they can cause low compression? Headgasket? Car seems ok, but a little down on power. But not down 50% (spec is something like 140-170 psi). Or a non-subaru mechanic (that I nonetheless trust - they work on most makes, but don't get into dealer-specific machines) using the wrong technique? Is there a different technique for compression test on a Subaru? Assuming they're competent, is this reading possible, even if the car still runs ok with decent power? Maybe not as good as it was last year, but not super slow.

 

On the other hand, this might put the brakes on my track plans. No sense spending $2-3k in parts when I know the car's not going to last out the year if I track it. It could serve just fine as a 3rd car until it fully goes..

 

Not exactly the news I wanted, but better now than later..

[Th3Franz]

Leak down test is more reliable imho. Those numbers seem really low across the board. Did he have the throttle wide open for the test? Valve lash / head gasket unlikely on all 4 cylinders. I had GST do a compression and leak down on my car and they did a good job for a fair price

[hadvw]

For those in the Bay Area who might not have seen it:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/bay-area-sorta-work-day-261833.html

(Bay Area work day thread, where several people have volunteered to help me out with a bunch of installs)

[hadvw]

Thanks to everyone who helped (Rhitter, Th3Franz, wpmarky). Got suspension + brakes done. Will hopefully pick up 2nd set of wheels tomorrow, then tires soon after.

 

Stuff I still need to get done before I can hit the track:

Must do:

-replace coolant with water + water wetter

-buy air compressor

-buy tire gauge

 

Probably:

-transmission cooler (or is this a must?)

-check rear sway brackets - looks like I have some reinforced brackets that came with my Cobb kit.. Decide whether to leave as is, or install the AVO brackets as well. Swap bushings with new Whitelines..

 

If I have time:

-oil pressure gauge

[hadvw]

So.. Update: will look into putting the Konis back on temporarily and getting the RCEs rebuilt.

 

Picked up some Rota Slipstreams in 17x8.5, ET 40. Looking for 245/40/17 tires. RE71s are out of stock for months. Right now, Firestone is running a $100 off $500 promotion - anyone ever tried the "Wide Oval Indy" tires? I could get those for maybe $400-450 out the door.. As long as they're not "don't ever run these on the track", maybe I should go cheaper on the first set of tires, so I don't feel too bad about ruining them?

 

I heard the Ventus EV12s aren't track worthy, otherwise I could have had a set of those for maybe $250-300 out the door over Memorial day..

[boxkita]

Thanks to everyone who helped (Rhitter, Th3Franz, wpmarky). Got suspension + brakes done. Will hopefully pick up 2nd set of wheels tomorrow, then tires soon after.

 

Stuff I still need to get done before I can hit the track:

Must do:

-replace coolant with water + water wetter

-buy air compressor

-buy tire gauge

 

Probably:

-transmission cooler (or is this a must?)

-check rear sway brackets - looks like I have some reinforced brackets that came with my Cobb kit.. Decide whether to leave as is, or install the AVO brackets as well. Swap bushings with new Whitelines..

 

If I have time:

-oil pressure gauge

 

harbor freight has a cig lighter compressor for 10$. They have an air gauge for $4.

 

Install the swaybar reinforced brackets, you'll need them.

[hadvw]

-already got the HF air compressor

-have a $4 air gauge. :-)

 

-turns out I got the Cobb reinforcement brackets way back when I got the Cobb sways and forgot. Will compare to Avo, but may not be necessary after all..

 

-any thoughts on tires mentioned above? Go cheap or expensive for the first time?

 

Just had to drop one of my PSS daily tires off to get a screw taken out.. 2nd time in 3 or 4 months. So glad I have a full-size spare..