Jamie Holland Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Hi, We have a 2006 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Limited AWD 4dr Wagon (2.5L 4cyl Turbo 5M), which has been having the following issues, and we’ve taken it to several different places and finally got the estimate of whopping $6K+ for replacing short block and sending gasket heads out to be “worked on”. Wanted your expert opinion on this one since we feel we really should just sell it (although the CEL is still on) than to cash out that much… ----------------------------------------------------------------------- So the problem started when CEL came on with P0302 since about last summer. We had a local mechanic work on it but it kept coming back. Then went to another mechanic who told us the compression was fine but leak down test showed 17% leakage. Also heard air during leak test on intake side meaning intake valves are not sealing. “ They recommended replacing the whole engine which would cost $10K or so (!), however also said we could still drive around without major issues for the time being. That was last November and we are still driving the car around (we do about 10 miles slow driving per day – no highway driving) which does run a bit shaky at lower speed (20-30 mph) but otherwise no significant problems. Then we took it to another reputable turbo mechanic (recommended by the first mechanic) who gave us the following report: Low compression on 3cyl. 2 of those cylinders are showing alot of leakdown, which means air is getting out somewhere, which require getting a new short block assembly and sending heads out to be worked. This is a baseline price, depending on how much work the heads may need. My tech after tearing apart the engine may come across something, ie the turbo cars sometimes need new oil pumps, turbo inlet hose ect.” ------------------------------------ The estimated cost came as follows - $3K for parts, $2.5K for labor, tax & misc $1K and a total of about $6.5K. (including $2.4K for short block, $500 for machine shop service, $2.5K for labor, approx). Mind you, he also included new timing belt & water pump which happened to have been installed about a year ago, so it’ll be closer to about $6K excluding those he said. He also said $6K is merely a baseline fee and may add up when the heads sent out need further work. -------------------------------------------------------- So my questions are: 1. This estimate seems to be higher than most similar repairs I read done on various forums – do you think this is a legit amount for the work involved? 2. We plan to sell this car after about a year or so (leaving the country), so we just need a fix that keeps us going for that period of time and then possibly sell it, and not looking for a complete overhaul to last us for many more years to come. Is there some kind of quick fix that lasts us another year or so, that doesn't cost us $6K? Basically, we don't think it's worth spending that much money on this, however to sell it now and buy a new one when we only have about a year left in this country, the cost involved seems high either way. As you could probably tell, we know next to nothing about cars so we just have to take whatever our mechanics tell us... Any inputs highly appreciated. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gex Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 6k is fair. You wrote a diatribe about a common failure of the Subaru EJ platform. There is no quick fix. Sorry. If you know nothing about cars than this is not the one for you. I am guessing the car is north of 105k miles. Things get pricey quick. List it for $2000 and cut your losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdmayne Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 What Gex said. Definitely sounds like YNANSB (You Need A New Shortblock). Most of the guys here either do the work themselves or have the cash flow to justify it. Where are you located? John Hancock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Holland Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 Thank you so much for your input, guys. We are in NC, RTP area. We just bought this car about 2 years ago for $12K, so it really hits us if we have to cash out $6K when we have only about a year left, but I guess that's life... If you guys all think the same way, while it still hurts (financially) it does a bit less knowing that this is an absolute inevitable path to go, rather than doubting if we have any other (cheaper) options. Any inputs still appreciated. Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Holland Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 Sorry I forgot to mention - it's 2006 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 See my click here link to see what the $6000 is getting you. You might as well put a clutch kit in the car with a SMFW and have the turbo rebuilt. The stock turbo, a vf40 is good for about 130,000miles in a lot of cases. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Rebuilding the engine to fix a persistent misfire problem is the big hammer solution. Possibly justified if you have a long term commitment to the car, but you say you are working on a 1 year timeline. It will be very hard to recover your investment with those numbers. The first mechanic made a good suggestion: just drive it. To that I would add: provided you can be reasonably sure you are not risking a catastrophic failure. You don't mention if the engine consumes oil. If not that is a blessing. With a recent timing belt, you are probably in the low 100K mileage range and it is unlikely the heads have been off for rebuild, at which point it is typical to reset valve lash. If the leak down identified intake valves, pay a bit to have clearances checked with the engine in place (not a particularly simple job if they need adjusting, so for the same reason, not cheap to have done. But a bill in the high hundreds, not thousands would be expected). Exhaust valves are usually the first to 'burn' so if there is no exhaust problem, it is unlikely you have a burned intake. Adjusting valves may just fix things enough to improve the misfires. With valve clearances in spec, and with your new timing belt and (hopefully) water pump and pulleys, then your chance of catastrophic failure is probably not higher than it is for the rest of us. No need to baby it. Just keep the oil topped up, drive it and enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 2006 MT wagon? Are you in Canada? Canadian import? There are two (or allegedly three) US 2006 MT wagons in existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtea Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 If you can stomach a 6k loss just because it's "inevitable" you're doing way better then most. Consider yourself lucky then and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Holland Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Sorry I keep missing the important info - it's at 112K miles, and not sure if you meant by MT, unclemat, but it is an automatic if that's what you meant, and we are in the US. Although it was very difficult to find this particular model car when we looked, and we only found 1 that came available in the area and snatched it. Now we regret Thank you birkhoff for your valuable input - it actually does not seem to consume oil ordinarily, our first mechanic told us to watch out for it and we did, and it seems to be doing fine at the moment. Xtea, what choice do we have...!? Even if we sell this one as-is and get peanuts from it, we will need to buy another (cheaper) car, and then resell it in a year - and in the process probably lose just as much, assuming this new cheaper car has no further issues... We will probably have to pass on our summer family trip because of this fix Anyway, thanks guys for your patience and valuable input - you guys know so much about this car and I've learned a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 In your first post you wrote: 2.5L 4cyl Turbo 5M 5M usually denotes 5-speed manual transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 . . . Xtea, what choice do we have...!? Even if we sell this one as-is and get peanuts from it, we will need to buy another (cheaper) car, and then resell it in a year - and in the process probably lose just as much, assuming this new cheaper car has no further issues... We will probably have to pass on our summer family trip because of this fix Anyway, thanks guys for your patience and valuable input - you guys know so much about this car and I've learned a lot. Personally, I think you have a couple of good options here. I drove almost the exact same car (except MT version ) for 6 years with a misfiring, oil sucking engine. For most of that time I was putting 1 litre of oil in every 400 miles. Other than the misfires it drove pretty well. These engines are tough! If it makes you feel better, sign up with AAA for the roadside assistance and keep the number handy. If you stick it out and drive it for the year, then you can sell it honestly with the advice that, yes, it misfires but drives pretty well and it has been a good car. They can either fix it or continue to drive it. Of course you won't get 12K for it, but you'd get more than if you sell it right now as an as-is mechanic's special. And you get a year's worth of transportation. Keep in mind there are a number of other things that could fail and require $$ to protect what you already have invested. Transmission, radiator and cooling system, brakes. If you dig a big hole with the engine rebuild, it's going to be a big downer if you have to rebuild the transmission half way through the year. There is also an intermediate option. Talk to the first mechanic about pulling the heads and rebuilding them only. That's a pretty standard repair around 150K, often triggered by a leaking head gasket. If that happens to fix the misfires it will add value because the dreaded head gasket job will have been already done. But it may make no difference at all to the misfires if there is also a problem with the block. It sounds like that is what the mechanics are suspecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Holland Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 unclemat: So sorry, yes it is automatic! As you could probably tell, I know next to nothing about cars and def prefer automatic to manual... birkhoff: I was about to call the mechanic to say go ahead, but your points are so well laid out we've actually decided to ditch the whole idea and continue to drive till it dies... and sell it as is at the end of our stay here in a year or so away. We were concerned about the very risk you mentioned that what if we pay $6K and get a new short block now, then what if something major happens further down the road - it'll be even harder to spend any more on this after spending nearly $20K on various repairs on this car. The car is only driven by my husband to and from work (about 15 miles/day, no more than 45 mph), and we do have AAA premium membership... it'll probably be even better as it'll force him to ride a bike to work for exercise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 If it's just valves that are not seated well, and you're not losing a lot of oil. That just tells me that you only need the heads and valves done. Why all this talk about a new Short block? If that one cylinder had lost compress and you notice major oil loss (1 quart every 750 miles), that would tell that you will need a rebuilt (new) short block. It's been well documented on this forum when the piston rings wears out or the ringland cracks, there is compression loss with oil consumption. Keep the short block and get estimates for a valve job. You will save a lot of $$$$ doing this. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Holland Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 I suggested exactly that to him (see below our emails): ---------------------------------- (me) Someone suggested the following: do you think is it at all possible that it may apply in our case? "You may not need a new short block. I've heard of the LGT's burning the valve seats resulting in low compression and crazy leak down. If that's the case, you may just need the valve seats and valves reground. I would also have the valve clearance reset too, as that could have caused the issue to begin with. The fact you had good compression but bad leak down, then a later test showed bad compression and leak down lends credibility to this theory. Over time, the seats wear further causing compression to be compromised. I would expect this all to cost around $2k or less, almost exclusively labor. Even if you need some new valves, they're about $20 a piece. I'm assuming of course that the valve seats have enough material left to be reground. ------------------------ While we understand that there is no quick first-aid fix on this, and the best approach is what you suggested, we are still trying to reduce the amount of work somehow down to justifiable level in our particular situation. It doesn't have to be perfect for many years to come, it just has to last us for another year or so... --------------------------- Then I got this reply from the mechanic (he's a supposedly reputable mechanic in the area, btw): "The heads would be checked in this job and repaired. The problem is, say we just do head work and put it back on your block, you would be payingus 3700$ to do that, and if the block is no good, you would end up having to pay us more to retear it back down and put a shortblock. " ... which made sense as well. So maybe I should do this $3700 job instead. We just thought we'll just spend no more on this car and let the nature take its own course, but guess if it turned out to be the only main issue then that makes sense. What we also didn't feel comfortable with, was that we were told (probably rightly so) that $6K+ is merely a baseline fee, and it may be more once they tear it open, which scared us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Yes it's a gamble, and truthfully, the only way to tell is pulling the heads off and having a machine shop pressure test the heads for any leaks in the valves. 4 years ago I rebuilt my short block due to major oil consumption, had my heads pressure tested and came back good (passed). After the tear down of the block they found a cracked ringland in #2, even though the compression was decent (no codes of misfires). Had the block rebuilt and kept the heads as is, no valve job was done. Still today the motor runs good with normal oil consumption. This is why I believe, IMO, you should have the heads/valves tested IF you decide to keep the car. Trust me, a lot of us have been in your situation and it's a tuff decision and all we can do is give you recommendation or suggestions. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 That mechanic is talking like a doctor! He or she wants to make sure they are not blamed for a bad outcome. It's like when you go to the doctor, and they say `you have this, so you need that'. Cost of repair doesn't really enter the discussion. Fair enough. Other mechanics are willing to tolerate a little more risk, shall we say. As long as they are honest and upfront about the possible outcomes. This latter kind of mechanic is more like a veterinarian . . . Just curious, but was this the first mechanic, or the second (or perhaps the third)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkaboom Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Rather than rebuilding the motor, why haven't you looked into finding a decent donor engine and just do an engine swap? For the cost of sourcing a certified 'used' engine and having it installed you'd be looking at a far smaller investment. I know many of the people on this forum will say that idea is ludicrous, but given the costs, it would be roughly half of what you're looking at to rebuild it. Not to mention the fact, that if there *is* an issue like a head gasket failure on the donor, the problem can be addressed before the installation -when labor costs incurred will be far less. It's definitely something you should be looking into if you're already considering dropping upwards of $6,000 for a rebuild (which sounds really, really, high, incidentally if it's done using stock internals/parts). Start shopping around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Rather than rebuilding the motor, why haven't you looked into finding a decent donor engine and just do an engine swap? For the cost of sourcing a certified 'used' engine and having it installed you'd be looking at a far smaller investment. I know many of the people on this forum will say that idea is ludicrous, but given the costs, it would be roughly half of what you're looking at to rebuild it. Not to mention the fact, that if there *is* an issue like a head gasket failure on the donor, the problem can be addressed before the installation -when labor costs incurred will be far less. It's definitely something you should be looking into if you're already considering dropping upwards of $6,000 for a rebuild (which sounds really, really, high, incidentally if it's done using stock internals/parts). Start shopping around. Can you show us a used ej255 that is reasonably priced ? 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 We usually can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we respond. You did good by posting on here before spending a ton of money. I've been fighting a misfire for a couple of years, and last summer I rebuilt my block, heads, and turbo... ... and my misfire still didn't go away. Maybe my car is cursed in a strange way, but my point is that all of this work may not fix your problem. Based on what you said, it sounds like your problem is more of a headache than a heart attack. If the car still drives relatively good I vote that you keep it as-is and sell it later (on this forum) for an appropriate amount. Driving it until (if) it dies wouldn't be a foolish decision for someone in your situation. There are plenty of people (on here) who would like a turbo wagon, and full-disclosure and a reasonable asking price will probably find you a buyer quickly. If you were close to me I know I'd be tempted. AND/OR Use this forum to find someone knowledgeable who lives near you, and toss them a hundred bucks to have them measure your valve clearances. It's not very difficult for someone who's done it before, and it would give you knowledge that could work in your favor when the time comes to sell the car. My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Kind of working off his idea ^. When done right, these things are lots of fun to drive. My trusted mechanic and others comment on the car after they work on it, the common opinion is, "that thing will put a smile on your face". The problem with that is, its hard to think about selling it and moving on to something else. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 moving on to something else. There isn't anything else anymore if you want a manual wagon, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 It's been 2 month's since we've heard from the OP... Should we close this thread ? It show's he has only 6 post. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slvrlegacygt Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Rather than rebuilding the motor, why haven't you looked into finding a decent donor engine and just do an engine swap? For the cost of sourcing a certified 'used' engine and having it installed you'd be looking at a far smaller investment. I know many of the people on this forum will say that idea is ludicrous, but given the costs, it would be roughly half of what you're looking at to rebuild it. Not to mention the fact, that if there *is* an issue like a head gasket failure on the donor, the problem can be addressed before the installation -when labor costs incurred will be far less. It's definitely something you should be looking into if you're already considering dropping upwards of $6,000 for a rebuild (which sounds really, really, high, incidentally if it's done using stock internals/parts). Start shopping around. I agree with what your saying. The bottom end of my forester needs to be replaced they quoted me about 5k to replace it. They would of built the bottom end though with manley rods and pistons and killer b oil pick up and baffle. Ultimate I decided to replace the engine for a few grand less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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