Official Firearm Thread V3

[05GT Guru]

I got my first gun during this last huge panic. It was harder to find reloading supllies then ammo and the prices were just stupid. I lucked out and worked with someone getting out of loading and i bought a random old school lot for $40 from him - all sorts of odds and ends and a press. then was able to trade the mostly revolver and rifle stuff for pistol stuff as i wanted to start with 9mm. Then waited for killer sales - xtreme was doing free boxes for black friday and I ended up with like 4 free boxes. There was a good 2000 rounds at least that only cost me powder. Pistol is easy enough ill always load it because i prefer my loads. Only pistol i dont load are my carry rounds. But rifle requires enough work i bulk up on it when its cheap so im not at a point where I have to load.

 

Depending on my intentions one day of shooting can be 500+ rounds. If family or friends go its easily 1000 since they cant seem to buy ammo, yet have guns but this is also because i usually dedicate a day since i drive up to the forest. I have to set everything up, take it down, then pick up mine and usually other peoples trash - so i make it worth my while.

 

I think my next caliber to load should be .22lr, my little M&P22c is too fun to shoot. http://22lrreloader.com/design-details/ kidding...

 

That's 300 rounds in tournament out of a 12 gauge shotgun. Granted they're 2 3/4 rounds but still 300 rounds out of a 12 gauge takes far more out of me than 300 9mm/.40cal/.223 etc.

[TSiWRX]

Last week I shot 230 rounds of 5.56 one day and 500 rounds of 7.62x39 steel cased another day in my AK. Both days were exhausting

 

I'm going to quote this here for the future.

 

Like a junkie, our habits keep pushing up our tolerance.

 

You'll be shooting more in no-time.

 

OK, no, seriously.

 

Shooting is just one big muscle that you build up. There's a physical component, and there's also a mental component.

 

The physical component isn't, like, completely fitness related - instead, it's related to the specific physical demands of shooting. It's why complete novice shooters will complain of "muscles aching where they never realize existed." It's also why even more seasoned shooters will tire of certain physical aspects (like holding that carbine or shotgun up on-target), if they don't practice it enough.

 

The mental aspect is mostly one of focus. Novice shooters materialize their deficits here by simply completely falling apart after a short session: that they feel physically drained, despite the fact that all they did was just stand in the same spot for 10 minutes and simply moving but one finger. That exhaustion is mental. Again, even more seasoned shooters can be forced to manifest this type of deficiency by asking them to dry-fire with 100% focus for a number of rounds that's above their skill level: hooked up to something that gives a measurable metric or simply by using the old coin/spent-case test, we can see this manifest no matter how skilled the shooter, once their level of focus is exceeded.

 

Most modern "tactical/defensive" handgun classes - square-range classes - call for between 400 to 600 rounds per training day (7.62 is usually on the same scale, and for shotgun, even beginner classes usually call for about 300 rounds of birdshot and 100 of ought-buck).

 

"Diagnostic" classes usually have significantly less round counts, but these are by-nature MUCH MORE physically and mentally intense, as each round fired, be it dry or live, demands that absolute 100% focus.

 

The shoot-house class that I took was a very good example of this dichotomy.

 

On TD1 (out of 3 days, plus 1 night), we went through close to 450 rounds of handgun in the morning session (9 AM to 1 PM), and the same count of 5.56/.223 in the PM session (2PM to 4PM, right before we started the house intro). It wasn't just all blasty fun, either. We were held to strict accuracy standards between contact to 35 yards for the handgun, and contact to 50 for the carbine.

 

Why?

 

Because the instructors wanted us to see that even at a demanding pace, each of us could maintain a level of marksmanship that actually exceeded what we needed to do inside the house.

 

Contrast this with being in the house for days 2 (including night runs) and 3.

 

Combined trough a dozen runs, we barely went through 50 rounds of carbine. And most of us never even transitioned to the handgun.

 

Why?

 

Because it wasn't really about shooting anymore: instead, it was a problem-solving. Yet what happened to most of us? With overwhelming problems to solve, our shooting devolved. And the more of a novice we were - like myself - the more our shooting matched the crumbling mental/emotional endurance that the stress of being inside the house put us under.

[THE RZA]

no really, I spent more time shooting in the Military than I ever wanted to I enjoy going to the range to blow off steam for an hour or 2, hit some steel or some paper. 3 weeks ago I shot 3000 rounds in 3 hours with my buddy as I told you, it was fucking exhausting and thankfully all 3000 rounds were free, otherwise it would have been one expensive day of shooting.

 

When I go to the range, I bring x amount of ammo, and shoot all of it that day, friday I bought 250 rounds with me, I was so tired from shooting I ended up taking ammo home with me. That was all close range shooting of course. When I do distance shooting I fire significantly less because Quality over Quantity.

[TSiWRX]

^ Quality over Quantity really is where it's at.

 

That said, there is a lot of value to be had when quality is held to account, yet quantity is also expected. Some folks in the community poo-poo high-round-count classes, suggesting that it's just ballistic masturbation. No doubt that some classes truly are just that. But find a quality school/instructor who actually holds the student to a defined standard or expectation, and that high round count class really embeds into the student the absolute need for recoil control plus will make the student subconsciously aware of the state of the gun in a manner that not even the best low-round-count class can.

 

Always quality over quantity.

 

But where quality is expected with quantity - that works just as well.

Edited February 6, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[THE RZA]

Man you love your classes :lol: i plan to take a carbine class or 2 just to brush up on fundamentals. Can’t say i’m mr. know it all from being in the Marines but there’s definitely fundamental things I could use some brushing up on. Just go out and train that’s the best thing to do.

[THE RZA]

best training I ever did in the Marines was MOUT training where they had Simunation uppers to attach to our M16's turning them in to high powered paintball guns. The Sim Rounds hurt like hell, worse than a paintball ever would, and we would move through MOUT cities as squads and there would be other Marines playing terrorist and they would shoot at us. It was honestly the best training you could ever have because it is the closest simulation to getting shot. I got shot in my wrist and it was numb for a few hours along with a nice big bruise for a few days.

 

training against targets is great and all but it's a completely different thing when you're getting shot at. Best way to simulate an actual firefight is to do training at an elevated heart rate. Find some open range space somewhere that you can run around and do calisthenics then pick up a rifle and shoot it when your heart rate is jacked up and the CNS is on the fritz. Or find somewhere you can do Simunation training. Check this video out, when I first saw it years ago while I was still active duty it intrigued me a lot, to a point where our unit starting doing this on field ops:

 

recently I called out the CrossFit Director of training on Social Media, he's a former SEAL I challenged him with a 4 minute time cap to do 30 burpees and a 10 round group from 25 yards out standing, he was embarassed to post it but sent me a message because he had a grouping the size of a watermelon, and he thanked me for it because he saw the holes in his training.

 

The best training I ever had was Operation Enduring Freedom 1-12, Helmand Province, Afghanistan and earning my Combat Action Ribbon as a result, just go out and train

Edited February 6, 2018 by THE RZA

[Merc6]

My uncles reloaded bird shot when they were members of the board of a local trap club. A guy at the club had the setup to make his own number 7 1/2 bird shot so everyone at the club could get lead shot pretty cheap.

 

I never really understood reloading shotgun though. Even when they were getting the shot cheap I want to say it still cost them 4 dollars or so a box(25 rounds). I can go to farm n fleet and buy 100 rounds for 22 dollars or a little over 5 dollars a box. All that time and effort to save a dollar per trap round.

 

For me I'm not shooting shot, I'm shooting solid lead projectiles that normally cost $1 or more a round in 5 pack or $10 for 15 if I can find it on the shelves.

 

Funny part is I still haven't shot anything but slugs and the original intent of the gun was trap come May/June when everyone comes in town for Lordstown. Almost a whole year has past and the 26" Vent Ribbed Barrel with a improved skeet choke barrel that pretty much sat of for the same time. I ended up with that choke as I didn't want to shoot slugs out of my mod one that came with it and that's the closest I could find to cylinder locally.

[TSiWRX]

Weird, I can quote some of your posts, not others.

 

Could not quote this one....

 

Man you love your classes :lol: i plan to take a carbine class or 2 just to brush up on fundamentals. Can’t say i’m mr. know it all from being in the Marines but there’s definitely fundamental things I could use some brushing up on. Just go out and train that’s the best thing to do.

 

I do. They are fun, and since I was never in the military nor am I LE, I learn a lot. What's more, because of the unique situation of NE-Ohio, I get to take advantage of being very close to some of the industry's leading SMEs, and I thus get to siphon off of their leading-edge experiences and thoughts.

 

 

best training I ever did in the Marines was MOUT training where they had Simunation uppers to attach to our M16's turning them in to high powered paintball guns. The Sim Rounds hurt like hell, worse than a paintball ever would, and we would move through MOUT cities as squads and there would be other Marines playing terrorist and they would shoot at us. It was honestly the best training you could ever have because it is the closest simulation to getting shot. I got shot in my wrist and it was numb for a few hours along with a nice big bruise for a few days.

 

training against targets is great and all but it's a completely different thing when you're getting shot at. Best way to simulate an actual firefight is to do training at an elevated heart rate. Find some open range space somewhere that you can run around and do calisthenics then pick up a rifle and shoot it when your heart rate is jacked up and the CNS is on the fritz. Or find somewhere you can do Simunation training. Check this video out, when I first saw it years ago while I was still active duty it intrigued me a lot, to a point where our unit starting doing this on field ops:

 

recently I called out the CrossFit Director of training on Social Media, he's a former SEAL I challenged him with a 4 minute time cap to do 30 burpees and a 10 round group from 25 yards out standing, he was embarassed to post it but sent me a message because he had a grouping the size of a watermelon, and he thanked me for it because he saw the holes in his training.

 

The best training I ever had was Operation Enduring Freedom 1-12, Helmand Province, Afghanistan and earning my Combat Action Ribbon as a result, just go out and train

 

A good friend of mine just retired from the Marines, and he also saw combat in his years across the way. His outlook is very similar to yours - that he has a very solid foundation, but he uses training to keep up with modern developments in TTP and hardware. Sadly for me and my buddy, this good friend of ours recently moved to TX, so we are now without a direct mentor. For the PracTac shoot-house class, for instance, he and his good friend (who is a regular range-rat at APD, and has just tremendous experience in the house [and otherwise]) served as our private tutors when they were not actively AI'ing.

 

I'm very much onboard with force-on-force.

 

I think that for those who are serious about self-defense, pressure-cooking their skills - including physical combatives (empty hands or weapons) - is a must. It's been several years since I have had any integrated combatives work, though. I need to find a good local school for this, since my previous instructor (a Marine as well, actually!) moved to Chicago.

 

As for force-on-force in the shooting sense, APD does offer UTM-enhanced courses for civilians several times a year. I actually had plans to make last years' PracTac hosted course, but an injury just weeks prior took me out of the loop.

 

In years prior, the integrated combatives instructor I spoke of above ran force-on-force scenarios using the civilian-available RAP-4 system (now known as MCS). These were painful. IIRC, Simunitions have impact energy of around 6 Joules at 3 meters. The RAP4s were hitting at 13 Joules, with the rubber training projectiles. I think Sims offer more than enough pain incentive, but it's hard to get for civilian training - UTMs are, I think, < 2 Joules.

 

This particular instructor saw pain as a huge motivating factor. The Shock-Knife usually made at least one appearance per session in his integrated combatives classes.

[05GT Guru]

For me I'm not shooting shot, I'm shooting solid lead projectiles that normally cost $1 or more a round in 5 pack or $10 for 15 if I can find it on the shelves.

 

Funny part is I still haven't shot anything but slugs and the original intent of the gun was trap come May/June when everyone comes in town for Lordstown. Almost a whole year has past and the 26" Vent Ribbed Barrel with a improved skeet choke barrel that pretty much sat of for the same time. I ended up with that choke as I didn't want to shoot slugs out of my mod one that came with it and that's the closest I could find to cylinder locally.

 

Yea but are you really going through hundreds of shotgun rounds when you're shooting slugs? Maybe you are and that's what you like to shoot when you go shooting but I only shoot slugs one weekend before gun deer and then during gun deer when I go on drives. And I'm shooting maybe 10 rounds between practice and hunting. So I'll just buy a couple of boxes of slugs.

 

If I'm going to shoot shotguns for fun it will most likely be bird shot at clay disks. Either trap, skeet or sporting clays.

[THE RZA]

Won a Giessele 2 stage trigger on ebay last night for $120, pretty stoked. It’ll go in my AR15 since that’s the rifle I’ll be shooting most. I probably will upgrade the trigger in the AR10 at some point as well but I want to shoot it first before I decide to upgrade that trigger. I may even swap the LWRC trigger in that gun as it’s slightly lighter than most Mil-Spec, I also want to see how much I benefit in the AR15 from the giessele trigger

[TSiWRX]

^ Which of their 2-stage?

 

Give it a few range sessions before deciding one way or the other. If you get to shoot dynamically, do so, also, before you make up your mind as to whether or not to keep it in the gun.

 

A lot of military guys I know really prefer a single-stage, and are quite effective with it out to the 500-600.

[THE RZA]

Just the basic Giessele 2 stage G2S. That will stay in my LWRC most likely. I’ve never shot an aftermarket trigger and I’ve never complained about a trigger before so I have nothing to compare it to. Of any stock trigger I’ve fired, the LWRC feels the best (6lbs from any spec I’ve pulled up). Since shooting this rifle I haven’t found myself jerking the trigger and seeing my groupings plot that way as a result. Hopefully with the Giessele it will be even smoother.

 

My .308 the reviews I’ve pulled up on that particular rifle have said stock it’s 5lbs but no review has said anything great about it, nor have they really said anything bad. Like I said I won’t decide on that until I actually shoot it

Edited February 7, 2018 by THE RZA

[Merc6]

Yea but are you really going through hundreds of shotgun rounds when you're shooting slugs? Maybe you are and that's what you like to shoot when you go shooting but I only shoot slugs one weekend before gun deer and then during gun deer when I go on drives. And I'm shooting maybe 10 rounds between practice and hunting. So I'll just buy a couple of boxes of slugs.

 

If I'm going to shoot shotguns for fun it will most likely be bird shot at clay disks. Either trap, skeet or sporting clays.

I have to drive over an hour and a half to shoot bird shot with a leased vehicle. I shoot 30 or so a month at most.

[05GT Guru]

Stop leasing. Just messing with you.

 

My gun club was closed.... because a group of libtards... "the friends of the parks" convinced the Milwaukee county exec to refuse to renew our lease because the club was deemed a danger to park goers. A gun club that had existed in Milwaukee county for 97 years and had 0 incidents in 97 years of operation was deemed too dangerous. Now I have to drive 50 minutes or so to another trap/sporting clays club.

Edited February 7, 2018 by 05GT Guru

[Merc6]

Stop leasing. Just messing with you.

 

My gun club was closed.... because a group of libtards... "the friends of the parks" convinced the Milwaukee county exec to refuse to renew our lease because the club was deemed a danger to park goers. A gun club that had existed in Milwaukee county for 97 years and had 0 incidents in 97 years of operation was deemed too dangerous. Now I have to drive 50 minutes or so to another trap/sporting clays club.

 

LOL I kinda had to. Cruze had to go and it was worth pennies trade or sell. 3 years I have a new car and new warranty and 3 years both cars walk away from. It was this or buy another extended warranty at the price of the car in used/trade value hoping it lasted the end of the loan. I pretty much replaced all but the engine and I feel like that was next up. Can't be 2 cars both no engines. End goal was have 0 car note debt and working Legacy. Once I figure out heads, fuel pump and injectors with he JmP 52 I'll figure out a plan to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

 

LOL before I got OTM, 22 miles 1 way to my range I normally would go to today but had other things come up. I may go Sunday instead with my cousin who been trying to go with me. Literally on group chat now setting up the day for the shooting day 50 miles away at A&A which is closer to home than the hotel is. Hotel we are at that weekend is like 70 miles from home. I'm most likely going to rent a GM car so I don't have to park so far from the GM plant like last year and run up miles.

[THE RZA]

So I got my Giessele G2S friday, after a quick install, I met up with my buddy yesterday who works for ICE again and we burned thru more of his government ammo [emoji4]

 

 

We did a lot of speed shooting drills, I put roughly 600 more rounds thru this rifle in 2 1/2 hours. My god this trigger is amazing. It’s almost cheating honestly with keeping your shooting fundamentals in check. Compared to Mil-Spec it is like driving a Toyota Camry and then getting in Camaro. When rapid firing it is pretty damn close to full auto. I will be putting one in my AR10 as well.

[TSiWRX]

Wait-out before you buy any more.

 

Your price was good, but not extraordinarily so. The upcoming President's Day deals should give you a further break - and you may be able to step up to an SSA-E (I'd just skip over the SSA, given that you already have the G2S) for not much more.

 

Also, I'd recommend that you wait until you've at least tried other good two-stage triggers before you keep down the Geissele path. The Larue MBT, for example, is a very competitive trigger versus the Geissele, especially at the price.

 

I'm not disparaging Geissele by the above - I say this as someone who has virtually all Geissele two-stages.

 

He makes some seriously good triggers, but they're not the only game out there.

 

Also, if you haven't had it happen already (or induced it, purposely), the next time you're out on the range, try shooting the gun with less rigid recoil abutment with your shoulder - and perhaps even brace the front on some kind of rigid barricade. See if you can't get the trigger to bounce and give you a quick little burst.

 

For guys who are used to shooting heavier single-stage triggers - particularly before they're acclimated to the characteristics of a lighter 2-stage such as the Geissele, this can potentially lead to an unintentional discharge.

[THE RZA]

we'll see, I'm sure i'll get some sort of promo from midwayusa or DVOR on a trigger again in the future. when I was speaking with the guys from Windham Weaponry they recommended Elftmann or Giessele, granted it's what they sell but they seemed to favor the Elftmann over Giessele for .308 because of a heavier hammer. I've done some research and it seems to me like the $250 Elftmann is comparable to the $165 G2S. I've never heard someone say you need more than a the G2S unless you're super competitive and need something really light.

 

Before I do all that in the AR10, I want to shoot it first. I firmly believe in getting a good feel for a rifle before doing major modifications like the trigger, BCG & other things like a piston system or a different barrel etc. I just did order some furniture upgrades to it to make it more comfortable for my liking. Magpul MOE+ pistol grip, MOE A-Frame stock, LWRC ambi mag release & safetly selector, ambi charging handle from radiant, BAD lever (I'd prefer ambi bolt release controls but that would require some expensive gunsmithing). All things that I can make this rifle comfortable for me before firing. Will be getting a scope in a few weeks as well, then I'll be able to take it to the range when it warms up.

[chowser51]

My AAC MPW came with the SSA installed from the factory. I bought a Larue MBT2S when they were on sale for $99. After shooting alot with both triggers, I prefer the Larue. Only because of the larger trigger face. I’m eventually going to switch the rest of my milspec triggers to the Larue whenever they have $99 sales or when I run low on Dillo Dust.

[THE RZA]

looks like you're in luck

 

https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-mbt-2s-trigger/

[TSiWRX]

My AAC MPW came with the SSA installed from the factory. I bought a Larue MBT2S when they were on sale for $99. After shooting alot with both triggers, I prefer the Larue. Only because of the larger trigger face. I’m eventually going to switch the rest of my milspec triggers to the Larue whenever they have $99 sales or when I run low on Dillo Dust.

 

I'm still trying to get a feel for the Larue. So far, I'm still liking the SSA-E the best out of the bunch, but I've only had about 1/4 as much time on the MBT.

 

More time is needed!

 

It's a great excuse for getting some Dillo Dust, though!

[THE RZA]

One of my co-workers is getting the compact CZ (non competition) pistol for $600, then paying some company $450 to install the competition trigger on it. I told him he could probably it himself but he was told by an FFL that it’s tricky and better off to pay this specific company to do it. I can’t speak much for pistols, but doing the Giessele on my AR was a 15 minute job, is he getting the run around?

 

When I used to work at the range, we would charge people $100 to install a trigger and that baffled me because it was such an easy job to do.

[firepyro515]

CZ trigger work can be a pain in the butt and is nothing like installing a trigger in an AR-15. Are they just doing the install or are they also doing action work?

[THE RZA]

both I think. He said he's shipping it down to a place in Louisiana.

[Penguin]

Cajun Gun Works knows their shit.

 

DA/SA pistol triggers are not for novices to screw with. Let an expert do it who has the tools and knowledge.