Official Firearm Thread V3

[THE RZA]

I have a mix of both cripple mags & standard. When i shoot in NJ always use the cripple mags, but the club I belong to is 30 min away right over the border in PA, I use whatever I want there. Standard mags, could use the magpul 60 round drums & other extended mags there if I bought one, but more importantly I can buy & use tracer rounds at the range in PA. They’re ultimately illegal in NJ, and I think they are in PA as well other than for range use, which I can buy right at the range.

[THE RZA]

TSI+WRX, one other question before I head out and zero my rifle again this week, what shooting position is best? I either do 25 yards seated with a bag or prone with a bag.

[TSiWRX]

The system is doing that weird quote-deny thing again!

 

Quoting you "manually."

 

So what i’ve always done is I zero in my irons and then lollipop the dot after, that was EOtech’s suggestion per the user manual.

 

It'll work, but it assumes that you've got all the fundamentals absolutely perfect: with that assumption, there's the chance that something that's awry that isn't grossly-so will slip by.

 

It mostly works well enough - i.e. if you didn't have time to properly zero/confirm zero on the optic and the rest of the class is already all-done - particularly if you're not shooting bullseye and are only going from the 100 and in, but its imperfect.

 

Prior to the EOTech I had a Primary Arms aimpoint replica which I never got a good zero on and broke it adjusting actually, they gave me a full refund and I bought EOTech.

 

One good thing about PA is that they really stand behind their products. That said, a warranty does little good when the item breaks in the middle of a 3-day away class. It's worth the additional investment to buy something that's extra durable, but at the same time, there's also never any real guarantees....my T1 broke, unexpectedly, on day 1 of a 2-day class. Aimpoint actually had to replace it, outright.

 

I no longer have the colt, I regrettably sold it, it came with the full magpul furniture on it as you see it. The LWRC uses their own in house made stock. They used to use the same magpul stock that was on my colt, which I may change out for, I’m undecided about how I feel about lwrc’s stock, it’s a bit beefier than the magpul one.

 

The reason I asked is precisely what you'd noted....that the LWRC proprietary unit has a sloped cheek area, kinda like the LMT/SOPMOD.

 

I'm wondering if that - as a part of the gun being so new to you at this point - may be what's throwing you off: that your cheek-weld isn't what you're used to?

 

The further reason I ask this is because this is exactly what tripped me up a while ago, when I took my ARs out to verify zero at the beginning of the season. I got perfectly dialed-in on my daughter's 15-22 (this was before her full-caliber AR, and here, her 15-22 uses the MOE stock that you had on your Colt - the LE6920 is my good buddy's class gun, https://imgur.com/1V9UJ3K , which he recently updated with an MI MLok rail), then on my current class/training gun (which uses a BCM Mod0), and then on my hobby gun - an Aero OE-Middy (w/MOE SL). I was having a great day: all of my shots were through the same hole on the 10-yard offset target, and were again right-on when I pushed it out to 50, where, even simply standing and monopoding the magazine awkwardly at about waist level, I was easily holding a 1/2-inch group.

 

Then I went to my HD gun - a DDM4V5LW that I'd retired to that role after using it in a few classes - figuring that it was going to be the least likely to give me any trouble as at the time I had the most experience on this gun....but that's were things fell apart. Just as I wrote above and previously, I ended up chasing the zero between the BUIS (a set of fixed DDs on that gun) and the dot (T1 on Larue LT660, both proven with prior classes, so I knew it was solid) for a solid half-hour before just giving up out of frustration.

 

Then I moved on to my backup for classes, a LMT MRP CQB16....and that's when it finally hit me. I noticed on this gun as I zeroed the irons that, for some strange reason, my rear sight setting was all the way skewed to the left, and that this wasn't the case on any of the other guns that I'd zero'ed that morning. I was puzzled, so I got behind the gun again, paying more attention to my cheekweld, and that's when it all came together as I realized that the LMT sloped stock was causing me to not cheek properly (because I have fatty porky cheeks, as you can see in that picture above :lol:).

 

And just as you would guess, my DD also has a sloping cheekweld stock, a B5 Bravo.

 

I'm wondering if the combination of a wider stock - one with more girth - combined with the fact that you're always driving a sight picture that's through all those planes is causing you some issues.

 

What I do need to do is spend some real quality time with the rifle and get to used to it. So far I’ve shot it twice indoors because it’s been freakin cold, indoor ranges I’m limited to an hour of range time so it’s not enough.

 

....

 

The other time was at my club range this weekend and it was really busy, so I was limited to an hour of shooting steel at 100 yards and going with the rhythm of cease fires, so again not quality time. I’ll have to go back on a week day when it’s not busy and I can spend hours getting used to it.

 

Agreed. The time limitation would be a real killer for me. I can get it done pretty easily in just a few minutes, particularly in the class context, but at a public range, I think there would just be too many distractions/worries.

 

The other 2 times I’ve been, one was with my friend who is an ICE agent and has a private range and 5000 rounds of ammo he wanted to burn through, so we were just screwing around shooting steel and mag dumping & speed shooting the whole time.

 

Fun range sessions are always fun, but, yup, gotta have an actual plan, if you want to work something out!

 

We’re getting another cold front in this week......

 

My daughter and I actually only go when its raining, snowing, and/or freezing out. We're pretty certain we'll be the only ones at the range, then.

 

...so I may do another indoor session and do what you suggested.

Do you make your windages on the RDS and co-witness the rear? I am a iron sight shooter, no denying that I learned everything iron sights and when I got out of boot camp everything involved ACOG’s. Which were fine for short distance shooting but I hated them for distance marksmanship.

 

I learned to shoot the AR from Marines. Actually, I made damn sure that I learned to shoot long-guns from Marines. You guys know how to shoot.

 

I zero my irons, first. If it's a fresh session on an optic that I've for whatever reason removed during the off season (like this past year, for example, when I was experimenting with my daughter - then 11 - about what kind of weight and forend/rail length she'd be OK with), I'll remove the optic to do so, just to be sure that I have the least distractions possible (obviously if the optic was a magnified scope, it would have to come off).

 

Then I either fold down (one or both of) the irons to zero the RDS or, with the RDS switched on, I consciously make myself "blow through" the irons so as to properly zero the dot.

 

With your flip-down setup (which is what I have on my class gun, as well as is what's on my daughter's 15-22 [her AR is without BUIS, to shave weight]) and on my hobby gun), what I would do is to remove the RDS, first, and zero the irons. Then I'd flip down the BUIS - both of them - and zero the dot.

 

I'd then flip up the BUIS and take a peek through, cowitnessed, as a final check.

 

If I did my job correctly, as soon as I peek through that rear aperture, that dot should sit right where I want it to on the front sight post.

 

If I messed something up, this double-check, provided that the irons were indeed zeroed correctly, should show the dot being displaced. If this happens, I then repeat the entire procedure above, starting with verification that my irons are properly zeroed.

 

Does that make sense?

 

TSI+WRX, one other question before I head out and zero my rifle again this week, what shooting position is best? I either do 25 yards seated with a bag or prone with a bag.

 

I've never shot benchrest from seated, so I honestly don't know.

 

I make-do at the public range I go to and do a standing, bent-over-at-the-waist monopod because it's so muddy directly in front of the benches. This is my daughter from this past summer, and you can get a feel for what we've got to work with.

 

Here's she's hot-dogging it on our TacStrike quarters - the little shit is doing head-shots (this is her 15-22, with the PA AMD on a PA lower-1/3 mount). She'll get tired of holding that after about a half-dozen rounds, and then she monopods off the table.

 

http://www.xdtalk.com/attachments/annaaa082017-jpg.400881/

 

I never really do all that great when I'm getting my pre-season zero confirmations - the above instance that I highlighted is really an anomaly.

 

Laying down, I prefer to use a bipod up front as it helps with my breathing. I don't shoot distance (yet), so I don't have a rear bag (yet). Prone, I feel, offers me the most stability...but this is default, here, as I've never shot benchrest from a seated position.

 

https://imgur.com/uxLEQ7j - That's my fat ass, ready for the contact rear. I actually really like a gravel/cinder surface because it allows the tips of my bipod to sink in and bite, so I can load them properly by then pushing forward on my toes.

 

https://imgur.com/61Cn4jH - I'm the gun in the red shirt with gray running the length of my back directly in front of the spotting scope on the fourth concrete lane from the right.

 

Conceptually, I've adopted the saying that the zero is everything - in a class atmosphere where I am under pressure to confirm and finish, I like to see - at the worst - a 1 and 1/2 inch 5-shot group at the 50 for my zero. In-reality, I try for a cloverleaf, and usually end up somewhere around an inch. This way, I then know for-certain when I toss a round that it's me that's the problem.

 

My buddy - the one with the LE6920 - who would have taken top-shot honor at the shoot-house class pictured had he not decided to sit-out the 2AM low-light run (he just got a new puppy the week prior, and hadn't slept the entire week ), rushed his zero in a carbine class later in the year at the same facility. This class, unfortunately, went to the 300. So you can guess what happened, right?

[THE RZA]

Thanks for the tips, I'll give them a shot this weekend.

 

I don't use a rear shooting bag, just a front for muzzle stability, I prefer a nice shoulder tuck for the prone because it translates well to my actual shooting positions. Even when I bench shoot I'll just use a front bag because I will shoot targets at different heights so I need to have maneuverability.

 

I will be going to Sig Sauer Academy in the spring for their defensive carbine class where I'll hopefully gain a lot of new knowledge and techniques, once I take that I plan to take a few more classes there in the future, Defensive Carbine is their lowest pre-req without taking complete noob classes in order to take their advanced classes.

[TSiWRX]

I'm jealous!

 

I'm sure you'll have lots of fun and learn lots. That's a great resource you guys have, up there in that corner of the country.

[THE RZA]

it's the ONLY real resource we have in this corner of the country There are not many tactical ranges here, 5 hour drive up to New Hampshire for me is worth it to get to use one of the best training facilities in the country.

 

The public ranges here will do classes, mostly in their indoor facilities and occasionally at a police academy, but nothing in comparison to what Sig has.

[TSiWRX]

^ Agreed. Having a dedicated facility is a big deal, for-sure.

 

The traveling roadshows do do a good job of getting a student immersed in the whys and hows of a particular instructor or cadre, but without facilities, there's really only so much that they can do.

[THE RZA]

MRO came in yesterday, holy crap this is light

 

[chowser51]

Preordered a SIG P365 from Brownells.

Use code L9Q today and it’s $480 shipped.

 

Missed it yesterday when the code made it $460 shipped.

[THE RZA]

what's the backorder time looking like on it? I was told they have over 100k of them pre-ordered.

[chowser51]

No clue. I’m patient. I ordered two CZ P10C suppressor ready guns in December of 2016. Hoping they show up soon. It’s been over a year.

[THE RZA]

That's a pretty nice price on the 365, my problem is with our commie state we have 90 days to buy a hand gun once we get issued a permit and can file for a 90 day extension if we don't in that time. I don't want to be in a predicament where I won't have the 365 for 7 months.

[THE RZA]

TSI, I took your advice,

 

Here’s just the MRO:

 

 

first grouping was the furthest left and that was unadjusted, second one I made 4 clicks to the right and my grouping was slightly more centered, 3rd grouping I took it 10 clicks to the right, that grouping is the far right one; 4th group I took it back 3 clicks to the left and that’s the grouping in the outer green circle, 5th and final grouping I pulled it back 2 more clicks and that was my most center. I made one more adjustment of 1 click back and then began shooting with the MRO + buis

 

Here’s the MRO + Iron Sights (I made one more adjustment to MRO before I used both sights)

 

 

The one grouping i shot really low was because I turned up the brightness to see if it helped with my aim, but clearly made it harder as I shot really low (it was my 3rd of 4 groupings, I did 4 groupings all together with both sites) for my 4th I turned the brightness back down to a 3 from the 4, and everything was back to center mass

 

Now for some rapid fire, all standing

 

 

 

MRO works great, 200 rounds shot in an hour I’m pretty happy!

Edited February 2, 2018 by THE RZA

[TSiWRX]

^ So now when you shoot just dot, you should be right-on, just as if you were shooting the dot either bracketed by both of the irons, or dot + front iron.

 

The trick with the dot is that with target-focus, you'll naturally blow-through and center: your brain takes care of if for you. Close enough, and you get really, really precise shots simply because the supercomputer that's sitting on top of your neck takes care of the work.

 

Cheek-weld be damned.

 

This is where you really pick up speed in trade for good-enough precision - that credit-card ocular cavity at CQB distances, each and every time, with blazing speed. This is also where the dot gives you more flexibility for awkward/improvised/compromised positions, versus struggling to find that sight package with the irons.

 

When you get farther out, that's when you have to slow down a bit: work to really center that dot inside the clear objective, making sure that your eyeball is properly in-line with the bore axis, getting your proper cheek. Again, blow-through the dot and focus on the threat downrange. The principles here are virtually the same as that of using the irons (with the exception of your eye focus) - that everything should be in-line, as much as possible.

 

This is also really where proper management of the dot intensity will help: distance typically translates into time/opportunity - refine that sight package by turning down that dot so that you can actually see it as the finest aiming point possible. For those of us with astigmatism, this is even more important.

 

Unmagnified RDSs, according to SMEs like John "Chappy" Chapman ( http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/06/gunfighter-moment-john-chappy-chapman/ - think the likes of Steiner, B.E.Meyers, Sphur, TNVC), should allow for effective engagements up to 300 yards/meters, even for those of us with astigmatism.

 

I think if you played with the dot a bit more - really got down to work with it without the irons - you'll start to trust it more, and you'll start to see with it more what you're used to seeing with the dot + irons combo. Once you trust it enough, you'll start being able to let go of that need for cloverleafs at closer targets, and you'll really start picking up speed, which is where the trade-off lies with the unmagnified RDS.

[THE RZA]

I feel like I got the MRO zeroed in enough that I can run it without the irons. When I was running co-witnessed I wasn't focused as much on lollipopping my sights.

 

FYI, for the Zero process I was using all Federal Premium 55 Grain ammo, for all the rapid fire fun I was testing out remanufactured ammo I bought for cheap from bitethebullet.com , also 55 grain and pretty good for the price and being remanufactured ammo.

Edited February 3, 2018 by THE RZA

[TSiWRX]

^ Gun + ammo interactions are weird: it's really much more unique than folks generalize.

 

The barrel that's now on my class/training beater - a 1:7 - does shockingly well with 55 gr. This versus a similar 1:7 on my HD gun, which performs noticeably better with longer bullets.

[BDII]

Glad we’re back to gun talk...

 

 

Ordered a Sig Sauer P365. Was told there were 100,000 back orders at the start of Shot Show

 

June? July?

[TSiWRX]

August!

 

I mean, "My bid is $1, Bob."

[BDII]

Not as bad as my back order of the the Keltec PMR30 I placed in September of 2015 was told I have another year to wait

 

I refuse to pay more than $380 for that pistol.

[THE RZA]

You’ve been waiting 3 years for a pistol? Is that the one that takes glock mags?

[TSiWRX]

^ No, it's a proprietary magazine with this little gun, which is a bit of an odd duck.

 

https://www.keltecweapons.com/pistols/pmr-30

 

 

Chambered for the .22WMR, it's a fun little thing - 30 rd. magazine capacity...and that magazine is only 1.6 ounces empty, full-up, 6 ounces.

 

Virtually no recoil to speak of.

 

It's a fun little thing, and I would encourage anyone who has a chance to try one to go ahead and give it a spin as a rental or as a loaner from a friend.

 

I bought one for my daughter as a step-up from her .22LR pistols, but the muzzle blast and flash had me thinking twice about putting this in her hands.

 

It shares magazines with the CMR30, which is the carbine variant.

 

Not as bad as my back order of the the Keltec PMR30 I placed in September of 2015 was told I have another year to wait

 

I refuse to pay more than $380 for that pistol.

 

$360 was what I paid for it a couple of years ago. The vendor, Point Blank, had then been working with their distributor for special sales of this and other popular Kel-Tec items like the KSG, and they had close to three dozen of these suckers in-stock, various cosmetic finishes, at the time. The special they were running was $385, with a 50-count box of .22WMR, but their ammo distributor fell through.

 

The availability of these little things really seems to be very spotty and regionally-dependent. I'm sorry to hear that you've had to wait so long...and continue to have to wait.

[THE RZA]

The Kel-tec is the 9mm rifle looking thing right?

[TSiWRX]

^ Nope, there's a lot of different ones.

 

I linked the PMR30 - which is the one that BDII was talking about - product page and the review by hickok45.

[THE RZA]

Glad we’re back to gun talk...

 

 

 

Yeah, well now that I got the weapons that are controversial in my state, I don’t need to infringe on all you free peoples rights with gun control politics

 

Speaking of, went to the gun store last night to buy a cheap AR15 to beat on and modify, ended up leaving with a modestly priced AR10 I still want a beater AR

 

 

That is a Windham Weaponry ww-308 16”, got it for $1400 out the door. I’ve been wanting an AR10 for some time and didn’t want to spend crazy money on one. It was nice to see one in person vs online and being unsure of the quality from a company I’ve never heard of.

 

Not sure of the brand of the compensator, but maybe TSI or someone else can help me out here

 

 

Won’t be shooting it for a bit, I need a piece of glass for it, some non neutered magazines (it’s came with a stubby 10 rounder, I need atleast a 20/15), a budget for some 7.62 & to get to a range longer than 100 yards.

[TSiWRX]

^ The roll-mark is PWS (Primary Weapons Systems), and I think that's a PRC, but I'm really not sure. https://primaryweapons.com/store/product/precision-rifle-compensator/ I'm not very well-versed on the .308/7.62 ARs.

 

Don't buy another AR - not even a "cheap beater."

 

Instead, take that money and funnel it into a good AR-platform armorer's course.

 

You don't have to go for one that's week-long and megabucks and is intended to make you into a certified armorer for, for example, your municipal agency.

 

Instead, a shooter/civilian-hobbyist course taught by a known-quality gunsmith will be just fine.

 

Semper Paratus Arms is a traveling show that's very highly thought of and is very comprehensive:

 

http://www.semperparatusarms.com/ar15-armorer-course-information/

 

...but even a single-day local course such as the one that I attended a couple of years ago ( http://weyertactical.com/event/ar15-armorers-course-2/ ), taught by Dave Laubert ( http://www.recoilweb.com/dave-laubert-defensive-creations-80917.html ) will give you significantly more knowledge than what even a diligent reader can garner from studying and scrubbing old posts on M4Carbine.net for weeks or even months on end.

 

A good course like this will have you completely tearing-down and building back up the gun that you bring, and will show you where and what to measure, and how to remedy any potential problems (such as reaming the chamber or staking the gas-key). It will also demonstrate to you why "parts are -NOT- just parts," and in the case of the Weyer Tactical class, for example, the why and how of the most common stoppages and malfunctions of the platform (Laubert and Weyer are both disciples and students of the late Pat Rogers, and as such, were given the legacy of EAG's tremendous learning library - Dave showed us a 30-minute PowerPoint at the end of class which was slide after slide of stoppages seen in the many classes that Pat taught over the years), and how to properly remedy them.

 

You've got a good gun, there. There's no real need to immediately divest into a "beater" just for the sake of having a beater. Instead, take that money and make it count. Knowledge is what you should be beefing up at this point, and there's no better place to start (given that your military service already has made you better than the average-Joe novice at the shooting/manipulations part of the equation) than with some true learning about the platform.