$10k track toy ideas?

[NSFW]

How much work is the IRS conversion?

[Tehnation]

Me and my buddy are building a 3rd gen camaro for the track...... the car was cheap, everything else .... not sooo much, custom t56 tranny, custom rear axle, custom engine, frame braces, control arms, struts/springs, engine/tranny brackets, fuel lines, custom full dual 3" exhaust, brake lines, rotors, a bunch of custom conversion kits for this and that! If you want real horsepower and handling it won't be that cheap. We dropped 10k on the tranny alone.... You might not go that route but you get what i'm saying.

 

The fox body was what 3rd gen as well? Don't forget we are talking 20+ year old cars..... you will end up changing everything, especially if you want it to handle as well as a modern car. Old cars are straight shitboxes in this day and age, a kia would smoke them and out handle them.

 

Working on older cars takes cash and time, you gotta deal with age. You might not want to go to old, it will become a task if not overwhelming, rust is the god damn devil, as well as old technology.

[Tehnation]

04-06 gto were selling for like 7 or 8k back when i was looking around 5 years ago, not so sure how much now. They might actually go up in value being so rare. But you can work the hell out of it without having to deal with all the 20 year old car bullshit. Slap a supercharger on it and your in world of power.

[05GT Guru]

This. Cheap and fast.

 

That's actually the expensive way to do it, supercharged mod motors are pricey, as is an IRS conversion... at least one that makes sense. Save the IRS money for upgraded suspension, bushings, brakes cross member etc.

 

I'm not sure you would even need to do a motor swap on a 5.0 unless for some reason you are looking for big power numbers. the stock 5.0 can put down 270whp and notch back 5.0s weigh in under 3,000lbs. 270whp in a 2800lbs can make for a fun track toy itself. If you want to do a swap, LS motor or a ford 351 would be far cheaper than a supercharged mod motor. Both can yield 500whp NA.

[Tehnation]

500whp on a built block.... and at that point might as well buy a crate motor. We rebuilt a sbc 350 stroked to 383 with 500hp at the crank. Very expensive heads were needed to reach that on cast rods and crank, they were custom from apr. You would need forged everything. They can put out those numbers but you need to drop some cash. And ford is expensive to play with as is dodge, gm is the way to go, everything works with everything and you have tons of options.

[05GT Guru]

Yes and no. Depends where you start. New gen heads flow a lot better from factory.

 

You can hit 500hp at the crank with a stock bottom end with any LS motor. My 2000 trans am put down 420whp with the stock bottom end and stock ported heads. Upgrades were cam, valve springs, push rods, oil pump, timing chain, intake mani, ported 243 heads, full bolt ons. Then again that 420whp was on a dynojet, so on a mustang dyno I would have probably would have only been making 390-400whp. Still you're talking 470-500crank hp with stock ported heads/bottom end.

 

500whp though does take some money. You start with a LS1... you will need a new bottom end. You start with a LS7 you need just a cam. But an LS7 is going to be pricey just to buy.

[Tehnation]

The heads are probably 10-15+ years old now that i'm thinking about it, lol... so they were awesome then, they were sitting in a box for a decade or so before we remembered and decided to use them. Either way you're still at about 500hp at the crank with stock internals, same thing. Basically it will cost some money, and with all that power on a light rwd car, you need to upgrade everything else or you'll see yourself in a ditch or accident in the near future. The older the car the more money you will spend to get it up to date!

 

The foxbody i'm recalling is the 3rd gen which is 78-93, 94+ is a different story.

[Tehnation]

Your right! the ls1s can take a boat load of power, but they started in 1998. So if you want to avoid motor swaps you would need a later 4th gen camaro, 98+. 3rd gens and early 4th gens didn't have ls1 which is why my block isn't putting out the power you're talking about.

[Stirfry_LGT]

How much work is the IRS conversion?

 

I've been building Fox Bodies for years. The IRS Conversion is practically bolt-in. Start to finish for me is about 5.2 hours. Can be had for $250- $1500. Leaving plenty of money for a suspension!

 

My last build was an 88 coupe with 2.3 turbo built (dyno'd @ 501 wrhp), t5 and an IRS conversion. 70mm snail was extremely laggy for short courses. Weighed 2675# with full cage no driver.

 

LS1 are great motors and make cheap horsepower. Mated to a t56 it would scream.

 

Either way, both motors will cost around 3.5k. I'm partial to the supercharged motor for the power band when exiting corners. As with anything, there are pros and cons.

 

The fox body was what 3rd gen as well? Don't forget we are talking 20+ year old cars..... you will end up changing everything, especially if you want it to handle as well as a modern car. Old cars are straight shitboxes in this day and age, a kia would smoke them and out handle them.

 

Working on older cars takes cash and time, you gotta deal with age. You might not want to go to old, it will become a task if not overwhelming, rust is the god damn devil, as well as old technology.

 

Not sure I agree with any of this. First and foremost it's a track car, everything should be gone through anyway? Second, if you start with a "shitbox" in the beginning, yes you will have to spend more... but again it's a track car everything should be gone through anyway. Old tech is often the most reliable, with a knowledgeable builder any build can be brought into the 21st century.

 

Kia versus what? A 73 VW bug?

[Tehnation]

The old foxbody had like 200hp stock with the v8 , thats nothing special now, back then yes, a sonata, kia optima, or most sedans with around 200hp would shit on a stock mustang, which is a lot of cars. People severely underestimate new technology and research. And old cars rust, finding a mint condition 20+ year old car usually means a lot more money as well. But I get what your saying, i'm just saying once you go over the older "shitbox" you will most likely find more issues vs something newer. Also older systems weren't meant to handle high hp vs a lot of more modern cars with a lot higher potential. What it takes to make 500+whp on a old 3rd gen mustang vs a new 4th gen mustang/camaro is very different. Like we were just talking about, i had to drop mucho bucks to get an old chevy 350 block to 500 hp, vs 05 gt guru who just upgraded his ls1 heads on a stock shortblock on a 2k+ car. Going from carburetor to fuel injection costs a good amount of money, don't overlook the little things, because they add up. You go to the track, i would not trust 20-30 year old brake lines, and of course parts for much older cars are usually more money.

[Tehnation]

He also live in a state with snow... unless the car is in a garage ($$$) or he is shipping it in from somewhere else, its probably f**ked by the climate.

[Stirfry_LGT]

The old foxbody had like 200hp stock with the v8 , thats nothing special now, back then yes, a sonata, kia optima, or most sedans with around 200hp would shit on a stock mustang, which is a lot of cars. People severely underestimate new technology and research. And old cars rust, finding a mint condition 20+ year old car usually means a lot more money as well. But I get what your saying, i'm just saying once you go over the older "shitbox" you will most likely find more issues vs something newer. Also older systems weren't meant to handle high hp vs a lot of more modern cars with a lot higher potential. What it takes to make 500+whp on a old 3rd gen mustang vs a new 4th gen mustang/camaro is very different. Like we were just talking about, i had to drop mucho bucks to get an old chevy 350 block to 500 hp, vs 05 gt guru who just upgraded his ls1 heads on a stock shortblock on a 2k+ car. Going from carburetor to fuel injection costs a good amount of money, don't overlook the little things, because they add up. You go to the track, i would not trust 20-30 year old brake lines, and of course parts for much older cars are usually more money.

 

Dude, none of this is relevant to the OP original post... He and I both live in the beautiful NW... unlike where you live, WE don't salt our roads... rust isn't a problem here.

 

Second, the 5.0 GT had 225hp and the Cobra was 240hp. Again none of this is relevant. No one has questioned whether fuel injection is or is not better (i.e "technology")

 

Who cares about your small block 350? I surely don't nor did I recommend him building one.

 

Fox bodies are already fuel injected??? why would he have to convert it?

 

20-30-year-old brake lines?? IT'S A TRACK CAR... these things would be gone through and possibly upgraded to say... SN95 brakes or something else...

 

And lastly enough with the damn Kia's... I have 93 Lincoln Mark VIII that didn't get the factory detune that would destroy an Optima 2.0 Turbo

 

NOW... back to the OP's original topic "suggestions for a 10k track toy..." My suggestion for a fox body mustang is based on actual track experience as well as having built many 10k track toys. This is in my top 3 of actual built cars, not fantasies.

[NSFW]

As I mentioned in post #21, half my budget is going into a fence instead, but the guys I race with in ChumpCar and Lucky Dog are talking about building a new car next year so this is still useful stuff.

 

I was looking at Mustang prices for the last couple days, and the 4th generation 1994-2004 GT cars are available for less than $10k.

 

I'd generally assume that newer is better, so I gotta ask... are there advantages to the Fox platform, other than cost?

 

Thanks!

[LatentWagen]

And lastly enough with the damn Kia's... I have 93 Lincoln Mark VIII that didn't get the factory detune that would destroy an Optima 2.0 Turbo

 

To take things even further off topic, I call B.S. You would not destroy a new turbo Optima/Sonata in your '93 Lincoln. Stock for stock would be a driver's race, if the Lincoln still has all it's ponies. Those Korean sheetboxes are quick.

 

That is not to say that any car in that "race" would actually require "driving"

[05GT Guru]

It's not really a drives race. He is talking about the 4 valve Lincoln which made damn near 300hp. Those cars have run low 14s, most run mid to high 14s. The Optima is probably a low 15s car.

 

Now as far as handling goes.... on a course the optima would probably smoke the Lincoln with the same driver behind the wheel.

[LatentWagen]

It's not really a drives race. He is talking about the 4 valve Lincoln which made damn near 300hp. Those cars have run low 14s, most run mid to high 14s. The Optima is probably a low 15s car.

 

Now as far as handling goes.... on a course the optima would probably smoke the Lincoln with the same driver behind the wheel.

 

Optima turbo is a high 14 second car at 95 MPH, not bad for a 1.6T. And the Mark VIII runs mid to high 14's. A couple of tenths is far from "destruction"... it sounds like a driver's race to me. All I'm saying is, give the car it's due respect, they're not slow.

 

I ran into a Hyundai Sonata 2.0T and was shocked at how well it kept up with my stage two Legacy GT. The Koreans are making quick cars, and definitely under-rating their horsepower figures.

[05GT Guru]

Optima turbo is a high 14 second car at 95 MPH, not bad for a 1.6T. And the Mark VIII runs mid to high 14's. A couple of tenths is far from "destruction"... it sounds like a driver's race to me. All I'm saying is, give the car it's due respect, they're not slow.

 

I ran into a Hyundai Sonata 2.0T and was shocked at how well it kept up with my stage two Legacy GT. The Koreans are making quick cars, and definitely under-rating their horsepower figures.

 

A couple tenths in the 1/4 mile is a couple car lengths. I agree it's not destruction but it is a clear victory.

[Rhitter]

As I mentioned in post #21, half my budget is going into a fence instead, but my the guys I race with in ChumpCar and Lucky Dog are talking about building a new car next year so this is still useful stuff.

 

I was looking at Mustang prices for the last couple days, and the 4th generation 1994-2004 GT cars are available for less than $10k.

 

I'd generally assume that newer is better, so I gotta ask... are there advantages to the Fox platform, other than cost?

 

Thanks!

 

I had a 2002 Mustang V6. Upgraded RSB (to a GTs), Bilstein HDs, HRs, 245/45/17 performance tires.

 

I wouldn't really call it a "good" handling car. I was 16-18 though and didn't know what I was doing.

 

It under-steered until it over-steered. However, I haven't kept up with them and I don't know what can be done to build them right. Mine just wasn't. Throwing a v8 in there would make it even more unbalanced.

 

Pretty sure my Outback is more balanced that it was.

[Stirfry_LGT]

It's not really a drives race. He is talking about the 4 valve Lincoln which made damn near 300hp. Those cars have run low 14s, most run mid to high 14s. The Optima is probably a low 15s car.

 

Now as far as handling goes.... on a course the optima would probably smoke the Lincoln with the same driver behind the wheel.

 

Correct you are. Ford had an abundance of cobra motors left over so, they used them in the 93 Mark VIII. After the the lawsuit against Ford they were detuned to 286 hp. This car has dynoed @ 368. These stock 93's can hit 180 MPH, documented..

 

Absolutely correct, in turns that thing is useless. Bring me a Kia and yourself, we'll have some fun in a straight line.

 

As I mentioned in post #21, half my budget is going into a fence instead, but my the guys I race with in ChumpCar and Lucky Dog are talking about building a new car next year so this is still useful stuff.

 

I was looking at Mustang prices for the last couple days, and the 4th generation 1994-2004 GT cars are available for less than $10k.

 

I'd generally assume that newer is better, so I gotta ask... are there advantages to the Fox platform, other than cost?

 

Thanks!

 

Great question. The fox body is lighter, especially if you start with a notchback. Parts are cheaper, money will go further. SN95's weigh about 3500-3700 lbs depending on the options. Suspension geometry almost identical. 04 Cobra a-arms bolt to the fox with no modifications.

 

The easiest swap would be the Mark VIII motor, bolts right in.

 

So to answer your question;

Weight

Money

Cheaper upgrades, keeping it a true 10k build that's track prepped

50/50 weight distribution can be had without massive modification (even with the 5.0, easier with the 4.6 out of a mark VIII 425#).

[StoplightAssassin]

For $5 grand you can find a so so E36 M3 or a good condition 325/328 and all are track capable in near OEM trim. Any of those cars take teh boosts well or junk the Bavarian lump and install a big 'ol Murican Veeeee 8.

 

this one seems fairly priced and doesn't include the usual enthusiasts tax: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2316253-1995-BMW-325is-5-speed-manual

[NSFW]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the input in this thread. Me and a handful of other LGT.com members in the Northwest got us an SN95 that we're going to race in Lucky Dog in WA and OR. So I didn't exactly buy my own car, and it may not really be streetable, but.... I think this is probably better.

 

It already has a cage and most (all?) of the Maximum Motorsports catalog, but will need some safety mods to comply with the rules. For starters. We're going to make a to-do list this weekend.

[Stirfry_LGT]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the input in this thread. Me and a handful of other LGT.com members in the Northwest got us an SN95 that we're going to race in Lucky Dog in WA and OR. So I didn't exactly buy my own car, and it may not really be streetable, but.... I think this is probably better.

 

It already has a cage and most (all?) of the Maximum Motorsports catalog, but will need some safety mods to comply with the rules. For starters. We're going to make a to-do list this weekend.

 

Congrats!! Great choice. You'll find that an 18×10 wheel fits perfectly. If brakes are in the budget and or haven't already been done, 04 Cobra stuff bolts right on. Let me know if you have any questions.

[NSFW]

The car came with two sets of wheels, one is probably the stock set. All are the same size. Tires are 275-something-18... I forgot the profile.

 

It's got nice Wilwood 6-pots up front, but the rears look like they might be stock.

 

We found a wobble in the passenger side rear wheel, but the car came with a spare hub (perhaps not a coincidence) so we're going to see if that fixes it. If not, we'll pull the axle and order a replacement.

 

We have some pics here, though you might need to be on Facebook to see them:

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Team-Pony-Express-281530008991/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10154703096638992

[Stirfry_LGT]

The car came with two sets of wheels, one is probably the stock set. All are the same size. Tires are 275-something-18... I forgot the profile.

 

It's got nice Wilwood 6-pots up front, but the rears look like they might be stock.

 

We found a wobble in the passenger side rear wheel, but the car came with a spare hub (perhaps not a coincidence) so we're going to see if that fixes it. If not, we'll pull the axle and order a replacement.

 

We have some pics here, though you might need to be on Facebook to see them:

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Team-Pony-Express-281530008991/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10154703096638992

 

Looks good! 04 Rear cobra brakes are a nice match for those 6 pots up front.

 

Sounds like they are all 9 inches wide, the one set looks like a Cobra R rep. Either way, 9 inches is a good amount of tire all around. If you guys get a chance x 10 is magic number on all 4 corners.

[boxkita]

@Stirfry_LGT - do you have any rear axles for a 96 cobra?