cww516 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 If I knew as little as the majority of people do about working on cars, I would believe the mechanic. He is wrong, in this case. It is worth getting another transmission. The failure rate is pretty low. He's talking about me, the technician in this convo. His butt hurts because he's one of the "I know more than the mechanic" and "Dealers know best" kind of guys. Sure looks to me like he's talking about the mechanic who recommended that OP ditch the car rather than dump a whole bunch of money into it. CVT transmissions do have less parts but that does not mean it's any easier to work on. IIRC, Subaru CVT uses 2 hydraulic pullies and chains but how it's set up and how a torque converter plays into the mix I am unaware of. I would highly recommend you do not try fixing it yourself unless you swap the whole transmission. In a convention trans, you could drop the trans pan and be able to access your solenoids. I have yet to drop a pan on a cvt trans so I can not say if it is or is not similar, which is why I recommended taking it to a trans specialty shop. This is exactly why most transmission shops aren't going to touch a CVT. You mentioned that they've been around for the last 10 years or so, whereas planetary automatics have been commonplace in one form or another since before the Cubs won the World Series (by about 2 weeks, if you believe the relevant Wikipedia articles) and people STILL shy away from working on them. That said, belt-drive CVTs have been around just as long as planetary automatics, if not a little longer (again, props to Wikipedia for filling me in). Most snowmobiles have belt CVTs, some ATVs, hell, Subaru (and a few of other automakers, using derivatives of FHI's design) has been using them since the late '80s. Automatic transmissions are highly mechanisms no matter how you slice it, and if the shop screws something up, they get to pay to fix it. tl;dr- if the shop techs aren't dumb, they could probably at least diagnose the problem, maybe even fix it. If they're smart, they won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Sure looks to me like he's talking about the mechanic who recommended that OP ditch the car rather than dump a whole bunch of money into it. This is exactly why most transmission shops aren't going to touch a CVT. You mentioned that they've been around for the last 10 years or so, whereas planetary automatics have been commonplace in one form or another since before the Cubs won the World Series (by about 2 weeks, if you believe the relevant Wikipedia articles) and people STILL shy away from working on them. That said, belt-drive CVTs have been around just as long as planetary automatics, if not a little longer (again, props to Wikipedia for filling me in). Most snowmobiles have belt CVTs, some ATVs, hell, Subaru (and a few of other automakers, using derivatives of FHI's design) has been using them since the late '80s. Automatic transmissions are highly mechanisms no matter how you slice it, and if the shop screws something up, they get to pay to fix it. tl;dr- if the shop techs aren't dumb, they could probably at least diagnose the problem, maybe even fix it. If they're smart, they won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Yep! And fyi I do all of my own work, if it were my car I would probably try to fix it just because at worst you are replacing the transmission, either way. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 I found a PDF with a ton of helpful stuff like diagnostic info and pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Any chance of adding that to the vacation pics...looks like great information to share. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Yep! And fyi I do all of my own work, if it were my car I would probably try to fix it just because at worst you are replacing the transmission, either way. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk This is exactly why I want to try, you can't break something that is already "broken." How am I just now finding the technician refrence booklet for the LineartronicTM Continuously Variable Transmission Generation 1 (CVT G1) PDF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Any chance of adding that to the vacation pics...looks like great information to share. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Is this a refrence I'm not yet aware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 It's an fsm thread, check in the general chat, or off topic forum. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 I skimmed through the whole "who wants to see my vacation pix" thread, lots of dead links and files my mobile devices can't open so I'm just going on an assumption here. Hopefully my weekend away won't become a full-blown vacation. If it does I'll post what I use to plan the trip along with all the pictures I can remember to take along the way. If I go on a 2010 vacation this weekend, does it count as time travel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 That thread is more for people who have been on a vacation already, or rather, for people to share access to the main vacation scrapbook for that particular year. For example, here's a link to some pictures from a vacation taken in 2010. Also, FSM = factory service manual, and there are implied air quotes around a lot of these phrases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Well, I tried and I wasn't that far off. The stuff I found could be helpful to someone, I wish I had found it earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 Some fluid came out when I pulled the fill plug and I let it drip a minute or two then put the plug back in. Pulled the drain plug and the remaining 4ish quarts came out, I let it drip until it stopped. The old fluid "smells icky" according to my brother-in-law. I ran a vinyl hose with a funnel on the end through the engine bay and into the fill plug. I held hose in place and my father-in-law poured in all 3 fresh new quarts. Then my brother-in-law helped him pour the old fluid in to top it off. They accidently spilled some of the fluid, enough that we weren't able fill it to the proper level with the car warmed up and running. I'll pick up another CVTF from an auto parts store tomorrow morning The spill was inside the engine bay and made about a 1.5x1.5ft puddle on the driveway. I stacked four paper paint filters in the funnel before they poured in the old fluid. There were only a couple tiny bits and the bits looked like they could have been dust from in the oil pan. Nothing metallic in the filters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 I topped off the transmission with roughly a half quart of valvoline CVTF, tightened the fill plug and put the car on the ground. Mostly smooth acceleration with a few huckups. Decided to go ahead with checking the resistance of the solenoids through the grey connector next. I figured, just for fun, I'd double check the fuses first. I'm not sure how I could have missed it but the fuse in location 17 of the under-hood fuse box was missing. According to the owners manual fuse location 17 is for the "Automatic transmission control unit," it is supposed to be a 15A fuse. I have heard a rumor that there is a fuse location under the hood that disables the AWD making the car FWD could that be location 17? I put a 15A fuse in location 17 and test drove again. I still experienced some driveability issues and then all the lights all came on. Codes P0700 and P2762 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 I just checked pins 1-9 in the grey connector by flashlight. My little sister-in-law recorded the values, the bad handwriting is mine. I'm going to re-check these values tomorrow in the light. I really hope I checked them wrong but it's looking more and more like I need a new "body assembly-control valve." Part numbers 31706aa030 31706aa031, 31706aa032, and 31706aa033 are listed as fitting my vehicle on several dealers parts websites. Any idea what the difference between them is? I'm not overly concerned with the high readings but that low value on pin number 2, the lockup duty solenoid, points to solenoid failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 You'd benefit from some TCU logging via RomRaider or BtSsm... much easier to test all the solenoids all at once from the comfort of your cabin. Duty Ratios, Duty Cycles, Solenoid Current and effective Pressures, CVT fluid temps, Torque Converter RPMs, Lockup RPM, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 The code you are getting is for your lock up so it looks like you are on the right track. You'll have to read up on the differences of those solenoids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Lockup clutch might be damaged or unable to fully lock for some other (mechanical or hydraulic or electrical) reason. Would be good if you could monitor AT Turbine 1 and 2 or Turbine 1 and 2 Speed (RPM) SSM fields. Ita very clear when lockup occurs (or doesnt) as these will either differ from each other and engine RPM with no lockup, stall speed... Or will be the same (or almost the same) and closely match engine RPM when the lock up clutch engages and connects the two halfs of the TC. If this never occurs in your CVT, especially say above 2.5-3K RPM and above 40mph, thats a tell tale sign of TC internals issue or lock up clutch solenoid issue... either of which can throw DTCs and illuminate the MIL/CEL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 I just confirmed low resistance at pin 2 of the grey t4/b11 connector for the lockup duty solenoid. There were 2 drivability issues I experienced yesterday. The first was a jerkiness around 15-20 mph. I think it was the TC trying and failing to lock up. The second issue occurred whenever I took my foot off the gas. The RPMs dropped (as if you pushed clutch while coasting with a manual transmission) to 1000 then bounced up to 1500 in one fluid motion. The RPMs stayed at 1500 regardless of vehicle speed until I touched the gas pedal again. I was able to accelerate normally while coasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 You'd benefit from some TCU logging via RomRaider or BtSsm... much easier to test all the solenoids all at once from the comfort of your cabin. Duty Ratios, Duty Cycles, Solenoid Current and effective Pressures, CVT fluid temps, Torque Converter RPMs, Lockup RPM, etc. If I'm reading the BtSsm website correctly I'll have to purchase their app for $15 and buy their OBD2 adapter for $99 or one of the listed adapters $?? Any idea if the cheap models will work with the app? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Likely no, most OBDII elm327 adapters dont work. You want to get at SSM protocol data, not vanilla OBD whicj carries next to nothing useful for Subarus. What would work is ODBlink LX and the app running on an Android 5.x, 6.x device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 27, 2016 Author Share Posted June 27, 2016 I just talked the the transmission shop the next town over from the car. He said they put a used transmission in a 2013 subaru last week for $2300. He also said there are transmissions available with 40-60k miles. They will come and pick up the car for free. A new "body assembly-control valve" with "oil strainer assembly-transmission" and a few miscellaneous o rings from a online subaru dealer will run me about $730 after shipping. I have found used transmissions online for about $1500 but I don't know if I can swap one myself with only hand tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I just talked the the transmission shop the next town over from the car. He said they put a used transmission in a 2013 subaru last week for $2300. He also said there are transmissions available with 40-60k miles. They will come and pick up the car for free. A new "body assembly-control valve" with "oil strainer assembly-transmission" and a few miscellaneous o rings from a online subaru dealer will run me about $730 after shipping. I have found used transmissions online for about $1500 but I don't know if I can swap one myself with only hand tools.Your issue might be internal to the valve body itself and/or also include the mini torque converter used in the CVT designs. I'd vote to get more data first, see if its indeed just that solenoid or a group of solenoids. Then have a shop replace the valve body (you'd want to reset the TCU, without software - pull the battery for 15-30 minutes and reconnect) see if the issue/s go away after the valve body transplant. If not, then consider a transmission replacement. If its been like this for a while and the TC never locks up or hardly locks up, then the CVT fluid is most likely burned up and might have caused more damage to the transmission itself so perhaps a swap isn't such a bad idea after all. However, if you've only had the issue for the past few weeks and say <1K miles then I'd start with the valve body and save some $$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 There is very little you can't do on a subaru with basic hand tools. They are super diy friendly with the correct information to guide you. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver2010legacy Posted June 27, 2016 Author Share Posted June 27, 2016 Here's the current plan. I'm going to make sure the new valves are returnable then order them. I will leave them IN THE BOX, not even open it to look. Then drain the fluid and drop the pan and inspect the heck out of everything I can see. If it looks bad the car gets shipped to the transmission shop for a used replacement and the parts box goes back, if I looks good I open the box and bolt up the parts. The actual drivability issues have been occurring for maybe 100 miles. Will it be obvious when I drop the pan if there is an issue with the TC or lock up clutch? What should I look for? The concern with changing the transmission with only hand tools is more to do with the size and weight of the transmission. I don't have a transmission jack/lift and the floor jack I have won't raise the car bottom of the car more that 10ish inches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Good plan. Keep us posted. You can do a simple CVT fluid 'test'. Allow one or two drops to fall on a good quality white paper towel. Set that towel aside and come back to it within 5-10 minutes to inspect it. If the drops have spread out and the color of the blob is uniform in color (similar to fresh fluid; so say green or blue) - the fluid that you drained was in decent shape (meaning, not too oxidized or subjected to high temp for extended periods of time, not burned up inside the TC). If, however, the drops do not spread out at all or much and they remain dark or show a dark center with a lighter or clean fluid on the outside, then the fluid has oxidized and burned (at least partially) due to sustained high temps. Inside the pan, look for shavings, any sludge (typically there isn't any/much because CVT/ATF fluid doesn't come in contact with the combustion chambers or any other source of ash, soot, combustion contaminants. See if you have any blocked passages if the valve body bottom stack will be visible. If you notice much of either, it will be a good indicator of the operating conditions the fluid was subject to, which if severe enough will also cause mechanical damage to the internals of the transmission (clutch packs, torque converter turbine fins, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I doubt it weighs too much to use a standard floor jack. But having an extra set of hands is always good when dealing with a transmission. Or you could buy a new jack...and still come out cheaper than having a shop do it. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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