16g replacement questions

[Bochim]

So last night my BNR 16g took a crap. I have had it for a little over 3 years now (30k miles) after my stock turbo went. I have not had time yet to take anything apart and see why exactly it failed but now when it wants to start making boost it sounds like a kenne bell supercharger (probably one of the wheels hitting the housing).

 

Regardless, I'm going to need to fix this. And I was hoping the very helpful LGT community could once again help me out.

 

I can probably have the turbo rebuilt for much cheaper than buying a new one, but if I did that and say had the components replaced with billet parts, new (possibly oversize) bearings. Would another tune be needed? I was thinking no since in theory it should perform the same, just have stronger parts?

 

I do not want to get the car tuned again and I guess just buying a new 16g is an option also.

 

Also would switching manufactures make any real difference?

 

Any knowledge is always greatly appreciated

[Max Capacity]

PM JmP6889928, he's the go to guy for rebuilding turbos on here.

 

 

He'll take great care of you.

[fahr_side]

30k is really not normal service life for a BNR turbo. Mine went 60,000km without any issue until I overdrove it myself. I'd send it to Bryan to strip, inspect and overhaul. He's a very friendly and helpful guy to work with.

[762x39]

Find out what is making the noise first. If you are absolutely sure its the turbo, the first thing you need to do is pull off your downpipe and check for shaft play. If the Compressor wheel did contact the housing, replacing the turbo will be the least of you worries as of now. Or maybe its not the turbo at all, exhaust leaks can make some impressive sounds, and I gather you are loosing boost yes? Just hoping for something better here. Get under the hood and let us know what you find.

[Max Capacity]

Tell us why you put the turbo on in the first place. Did the old turbo blow and send some metal into the oil system ?

[Bochim]

Find out what is making the noise first. If you are absolutely sure its the turbo, the first thing you need to do is pull off your downpipe and check for shaft play. If the Compressor wheel did contact the housing, replacing the turbo will be the least of you worries as of now. Or maybe its not the turbo at all, exhaust leaks can make some impressive sounds, and I gather you are loosing boost yes? Just hoping for something better here. Get under the hood and let us know what you find.

 

The turbo is making the noise for sure. its one of the wheels hitting the housing.

 

 

Tell us why you put the turbo on in the first place. Did the old turbo blow and send some metal into the oil system ?

 

I put the turbo on over 3 years ago because the original one failed. The shaft broke on the impeller side due to lack of oil from the filter in the banjo bolt being clogged. However the compressor side did not have much movement, so little to no paticals got into the motor. The blades where just slightly bent on the compressor wheel at the very tips. There was nothing in the oil, Couldn't see anything in the inter cooler. Also the fact that for 3 years now I have not seen anything in my oil or the inline filter going to the "new" turbo seams to tell me that this was not caused from the first turbo failing.

 

I wont be able to see why it failed until the weekend when I have time to work on it. But hopefully I got lucky again and I wont be pricing a motor rebuild. (Although I have had the itch for more power this last year)

 

Mainly what I was wondering was, will this turbo flow the same CFM/PSI after being rebuilt. I don't want to get the car tuned again.

 

Today I did talk to a local shop(xsboost turbochargers) and they said it would flow the same as before. I think they are going to end up being cheaper than shipping mine to BNR.

 

This is all of course if my motor isn't screwed witch in that case something bigger will be going back on.

[Bochim]

This is not my car but it sounds exactly like this. Only mine starts making the noise at about 2.5k rpms's.

 

[ragman]

I do not want to get the car tuned again and I guess just buying a new 16g is an option also.

 

Also would switching manufactures make any real difference?

 

Any knowledge is always greatly appreciated

 

I'd say yes. Switching manufactures does make a difference and would require a retune.

 

So, if you're flexible on getting retuned, that opens up other options. but, if your set on keeping the same tune, then IMO I think its best to work with Bryan at BNR.

[Max Capacity]

I can see why it would flow the same all they are doing is replacing parts not increasing the size of the wheels....right ?

[fahr_side]

Not all wastegate actuators and flappers are created equal. Change those and boost control in your tune will be affected. Just let Bryan figure out what went wrong, he's very good to work with.

 

 

Sent from a device using some software.

[Mike07LGT]

If i had a bad experience with a turbo I wouldnt buy the same one again... there have been some issues with BNR turbos reported lately with no support from them. I would look at replacing it with something else and get retuned. Dont you want the next turbo you buy to last longer than 30k miles? Talk to JMP. You can try to contact BNR but good luck!

[Bochim]

The car is apart. The compressor wheel is broken. Not horribly but enough for concern. When I took the intercooler off about 3-4 1/4inchish peaces of the blades fell out of the turbo side. On the intake side and in the hose for the throttle body there was only dust partials. I took the intake off (that kinda sucks by the way) and I could not see anything in that or on the TGV's or down into the head. Oil spray on everything. This leads me to believe that little to nothing got into the head/cylinders. Nothing in the oil. Also the car ran fine after it happened. From what I have seen I don't think pulling the motor is justified at this point.

 

The inline filter on the oil supply line was clean. However the banjo that screws into the center section was not tight. More like finger tight. (Could the bolt being lose be an after affect of the turbo failing????) I could see that a small amount of oil had come out onto the top of the turbo center section. I think that the turbo was still getting oil because there was hardly anything on the turbo and nothing on anything around it. I don't know if this was the cause or not. I also found today a post from Imfamious performance about a recall on some their fittings. I will have to look at mine and see if it matches what they are describing. Again I don't know if this might have been the cause or not.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/ip-t-turbo-oil-feed-line-users-please-read-thread-224145.html?

 

As far as the turbo. I'm still going to go with the shop in my hometown because its going to be cheaper. I don't see why the waist gate actuator would need anything done to it (thanks fahr_side I did not think of that) so my thinking is with new internals it should perform the same as before. I do not want to get the car retuned. (if it came down to that I would do the motor build I want to do but don't have the time/space or funds to do right now)

 

"If i had a bad experience with a turbo I wouldnt buy the same one again... there have been some issues with BNR turbos reported lately with no support from them. I would look at replacing it with something else and get retuned. Dont you want the next turbo you buy to last longer than 30k miles? Talk to JMP. You can try to contact BNR but good luck!"

 

- I think the exact same way. but the truth is I do not know exactly why it failed so i cant point the finger at them yet. Also they have been very helpful to me in the past.

 

 

I still don't know why it failed. All I have is theories. Maybe once they take it apart they can give me more clues.

 

Hopefully that answers/responded to all of you. I need a beer now. Thanks for the emotional support lol

 

edit - I may be going with JMP instead of the local shop. We will see.

[Max Capacity]

John will take good care of you.

 

Have you drained the oil and looked for metal in it ?

 

The lose banjo bolt would have leaked oil and you would have smelt that as it hit the DP.

[Bochim]

Yes I drained the oil, nothing that I could see.

 

Yeah the lose bolt did leak a little bit on the top of the turbo. my downpipe was clean. (thank god because its wrapped) the lower part of the turbo and return hose where kind of oily, but it's not like it was spraying everywhere.

[Max Capacity]

With those big pieces...the has to be metal somewhere in the oil...may be you got lucky.

 

You might want to do a few quick oil changes with filter.

[BryanBNR]

A turbo doesn't just crap out at 30k miles. Any and all returns on LGt turbos are oil starved. Some cars are fine with them and last a while while others just eat turbos left and right. It doesn't matter what turbo goes in. If it doesn't have adequate oil volume the turbo dies a miserable metal fused death. I do 100 turbos a month and the only returns are LGTs. I use the same bearings in every unit I build. Nothing else comes back.

 

I do work with people that have issues. I do my best to fix the issues they have with their LGt/xt or point them in the right direction.

 

I do hate your having issues. Let me know if I can assist you.

[Bochim]

A turbo doesn't just crap out at 30k miles. Any and all returns on LGt turbos are oil starved. Some cars are fine with them and last a while while others just eat turbos left and right. It doesn't matter what turbo goes in. If it doesn't have adequate oil volume the turbo dies a miserable metal fused death. I do 100 turbos a month and the only returns are LGTs. I use the same bearings in every unit I build. Nothing else comes back.

 

I do work with people that have issues. I do my best to fix the issues they have with their LGt/xt or point them in the right direction.

 

I do hate your having issues. Let me know if I can assist you.

 

I'm not saying it's your fault Bryan, your shop has always been helpful. I'm just not sure why it failed. The oil line was not super tight where the banjo goes into the turbo, more like finger tight. I could see where some oil had seeped out on top of the center section but it was not a lot. One would think it was still getting oil. I don't know if this could have caused it or not. Also the inline filter was totally clean.

 

Any ideas, thoughts, or other things to check feel free to let me know.

[BryanBNR]

I'm not saying it's your fault Bryan, your shop has always been helpful. I'm just not sure why it failed. The oil line was not super tight where the banjo goes into the turbo, more like finger tight. I could see where some oil had seeped out on top of the center section but it was not a lot. One would think it was still getting oil. I don't know if this could have caused it or not. Also the inline filter was totally clean.

 

Any ideas, thoughts, or other things to check feel free to let me know.

 

I didn't mean for it t9 be a snappy response. My bad!

 

Call me this week sometime!

[Bochim]

Yeah sure I'll call sometime this week.

 

On another note, I guess subaru changed the intake manifold to TGV gaskets because the ones they gave me where a little different. I would take a picture but they are already in the car. I was worried they would not work but they seam to be ok. Just an FYI in case anyone else runs into that.

[Bochim]

Been real busy trying to buy a house and other stuff. Should be getting the turbo back next week. Can't wait, I'm pretty excited.

 

The rebuilder thinks that it had an air bubble in the coolant jacket witch let it get extremely hot and the shaft bent.

[Max Capacity]

I'm just guessing here but with a air bubble that big, I'd think you've have other problems...or would have seen the temp needle rise.

 

I'll just put this out there, I have both banjo filters removed, still running the stock oil feed that came on my 2005, my vf52 has over 83,000 miles on it at 21psi. I run at least 7000 mile OCI's using Amsoil products.

[whitrzac]

Been real busy trying to buy a house and other stuff. Should be getting the turbo back next week. Can't wait, I'm pretty excited.

 

The rebuilder thinks that it had an air bubble in the coolant jacket witch let it get extremely hot and the shaft bent.

 

 

Turbos done need coolant to survive.

[Bochim]

I'm just guessing here but with a air bubble that big, I'd think you've have other problems...or would have seen the temp needle rise.

 

I'll just put this out there, I have both banjo filters removed, still running the stock oil feed that came on my 2005, my vf52 has over 83,000 miles on it at 21psi. I run at least 7000 mile OCI's using Amsoil products.

 

Yeah I don't know how I would have gotten an air bubble in the system. I have not seen any leaks and my coolant level was good.

 

Yesterday I was cleaning out my intercooler. Got a few more chucks out of it but I can still hear something rattling around in their. I tried everything I could think of to get it out but its not coming. I don't want to risk it coming lose at a later point so I ordered a new one.

[JmP6889928]

Turbos done need coolant to survive.

 

Not true. Turbos that are designed to use oil as the coolant do not need water based/glycol coolant to survive because they have oil jackets/galleries that are designed to cool the oil as it passes through the turbo housing.

 

Turbos (IHI, MHI, most automotive turbos) that are designed to use water based/glycol coolant and oil combined for the cooling, definitely need coolant because there is no cooling jacket/gallery for the oil-just from the feed through the journal bearings and back to drain out.

 

In the design that we have in our cars, the actual engine coolant takes care of the cooling process for the turbo center bearing support housing-journal bearings and shaft.

 

The other thing it could be that bends a shaft like this was bent was a clogged catalytic converter transferring heat back up the down pipe and virtually making the turbine glow red resulting in it becoming soft, and then simply bending from the stress. The faster the turbine spins, it helps cool it so it doesn't literally melt, but if the converter is plugged, the turbine is going slower and receiving heat from both sides, and something has to give and it's usually the turbo.

[Bochim]

Not true. Turbos that are designed to use oil as the coolant do not need water based/glycol coolant to survive because they have oil jackets/galleries that are designed to cool the oil as it passes through the turbo housing.

 

Turbos (IHI, MHI, most automotive turbos) that are designed to use water based/glycol coolant and oil combined for the cooling, definitely need coolant because there is no cooling jacket/gallery for the oil-just from the feed through the journal bearings and back to drain out.

 

In the design that we have in our cars, the actual engine coolant takes care of the cooling process for the turbo center bearing support housing-journal bearings and shaft.

 

The other thing it could be that bends a shaft like this was bent was a clogged catalytic converter transferring heat back up the down pipe and virtually making the turbine glow red resulting in it becoming soft, and then simply bending from the stress. The faster the turbine spins, it helps cool it so it doesn't literally melt, but if the converter is plugged, the turbine is going slower and receiving heat from both sides, and something has to give and it's usually the turbo.

 

Ill have to check out the converter. I have the COBB highflow cated downpipe. I'm thinking once I get it back in I will use one of those cooling system pressure checkers to make sure nothing is leaking. A pinhole leak may be a possibility.

 

Have you ever seen a failure like this from long periods of being in boost?

Not that I was doing this but lets say a situation where someone was driving at 100mph for an extended period of time on the highway.

 

The reason I ask is because I frequently drive from Cleveland area to canton area (about 55 miles one way). My car starts spooling very early, I would say at 2.5k RPMs. So, if I'm going 70mph (Maybe faster sometimes depending on who is driving next to me ) I'm sitting usually right at 3k RPMs (No boost gauge so I have no idea what that would be at at that RPM and gear). Over time would a situation like this possible case a weakening of the shaft since its sort of "staying hot" for a long period of time?

Just brainstorming here since I haven't found anything else that would indicate cause of failure.