Steady-state Steering/Cornering Issue

[WRX USA]

Dude try the dampener lockdown. Trust me. I'll put my money where my mouth is buy it install it drive it if you don't think it transforms your steering before new tires which will ultimately help tons as well. But for you really don't think it was worth it I'll toss you $20 towards it which makes it then a bargain if a mod for you

 

I still think this is the issue.

 

Like a master cylinder brace, it's one of those things that you'd never want to remove once it's installed (and unlike the MCB, it is super easy to install or remove). The dampener is the weak link in the chain and until it's addressed you are going to keep feeling it. With the lockdown installed, you'd think you feel more of the little stuff but the opposite is true because the suspension absorbs most of it.

[boxkita]

I still think this is the issue.

 

Like a master cylinder brace, it's one of those things that you'd never want to remove once it's installed (and unlike the MCB, it is super easy to install or remove). The dampener is the weak link in the chain and until it's addressed you are going to keep feeling it. With the lockdown installed, you'd think you feel more of the little stuff but the opposite is true because the suspension absorbs most of it.

You could wrap a $20 bill around it and have same effect. Squishy AS tires are definitely not an issue.

[WRX USA]

You could wrap a $20 bill around it and have same effect. Squishy AS tires are definitely not an issue.

 

I'm not saying they aren't but if you refuse to replace them there are still other things you can do to improve the handling (with the tires still bang the ultimate limiting factor/weak link).

[boxkita]

I'm not saying they aren't but if you refuse to replace them there are still other things you can do to improve the handling (with the tires still bang the ultimate limiting factor/weak link).

Spending $80 to make an extremely minor change to make up buying incorrect tires makes no sense. You can buy cheap summer tires for less than $400 installed new and less if you buy used. If you sold tbe AS tires you could probably get new tires for less than $80 all done.

 

However the other problem is OP is trying to steer while in the corner. at that point no amount of money spent on parts can help. A better driving technique will vastly improve the handling even on AS tires.

[JF1GG29]

"I got a deal on these tires" and now my car doesn't perform as well. Please help!

 

:spin:

 

If I had a dime for every time I read that line on this forum, I wouldn't need to play the powerball lottery.

 

You buy crap tires then go to your favorite road and try to go fast. The experience sucks. Well...what did you expect?

 

making an LGT handle like a sports car (its not) and not a grand touring car (it is), requires changes. Swaybars, suspension, high performance low profile tires, light wheels, and a bit of driving talent.

 

Handle better on your setup:

1. Look up the max cold pressure on your tires, then set all 4 tires to that

2. Crawl under the car and check all your suspension bits:

a. for leaking and/or damaged bushings

b: rusted parts (swaybars, struts)

c. any thing not tightened down

3. Get a gps/handling.video app for your phone - harry's lap timer or some such thing. Mount to your windshield on the passenger side of the mirror. You want it recording but not visible to you.

4. Get a radar detector and learn the normal sounds of your favorite road. Set the volume on high.

5. Turn off every other sound maker in your car (stereo, phone, extra long key chain, mirror balls, etc)

6. Now, drive your favorite road (best if it was a track) at slow speed then gradually increase until you feel something not right in the experience. Hopefully this occurs before you drive off the road

 

Now look at the data. The app should show what the car did the whole time. If its a good app, it will let you overlay the slower runs with the faster runs. What you'll find, typically, is you are changing where the car is on the road depending on speed. What you want to find is the car is in the same location regardless of speed.

 

On a highly camber'ed road (typical back road?), you should be using the full width of the road (hence why you do this on a track or use a radar detector). Look up apexing a turn. If you are not doing this, likely, your car is not setup optimally for getting thru the turn.

 

Before the apex, the typical LGT driver is hard on the throttle. At or beyond the apex, the typical LGT driver is hard on the brakes. Sometime later, the typical LGT driver is hard on the throttle. Sometime later, the typical LGT driver is posting on here about crap handling with their AS tires.

 

However, in your case, you have a bit more awareness. It's not how fast you enter the corner (before apex), it's how fast you exit the corner (apply throttle after apex). Look up "Miata passed high $ sports car" on Youtube. In the case of the LGT, applying throttle after the apex will cause the front end to get light (grand touring car. remember). When the front end gets light, steering will resemble under steer. At this point, you have 2 choices (assuming you don't want to spend money): lift slightly, or unwind the wheel a bit. Lifting the throttle (think flex your big toe) will bring the weight forward onto the front wheels more for more grip (the actual details are not important) which will decreasing turning circle and your pucker factor. Unwinding the wheel (slightly = 1/8 turn) will lower understeer and reduce side-load on front tires letting them grip more, however, your pucker factor will higher.

 

Depending on the tires you have, you'll hear different noises depending on the side loading. The first squeal is the tires starting to work. This should be a steady state not an occasional sound on the way to the second or third more tragic noises. Again, a track is better place to learn this. However, the practice runs at slower speeds with video/gps app will help you match sound to road position to cornering speed. As you work up in speed, you'll come to associate different tire noises with actual side loading not perceived.

 

A bit of looseness in the corner is expected. In mid-corner, you should not be turning the wheel at all as you're at apex. At apex, you should be worrying about how much throttle you can apply and still be on the road at track out. Given the AWD arrangement, you could even be allowing for beyond the edge of the road. Too far, and you get special mention on Youtube.

 

Case in point, a wagon with full Whiteline upgrades on corner-balanced cheap coilovers (yes it makes a difference) on race slicks on a decreasing radius sweeper can achieve 1.5 G laterally. This requires using the entire 40 foot wide track (3 lanes of a regular road) to complete the turn. After apex, the steering wheel is not turned until track out is reached. Mostly because it doesn't matter as you are steering with the throttle. Sgt.Gator does better in this section because front LSD & expensive coilovers.

 

However, on AS tires, you can still do alot. These were my AS tires with 1500 miles of track & spirited driving - http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/fs-wa-michelin-pilot-sport-avs-plus-set-4-250-216181.html?t=216181 . On track, at speed, in steady state cornering, on stock suspension, they would howl alarmingly but still hold. There is video (can't find link) of the car riding on the bump stops making the turn easily. Apparently the view from trailing cars was unnerving.

 

Instead of spending $81 on the steering damper, spend 1/4 on one of these books - https://speedsecrets.com/ . On squishy AS tires, the damper is like the GS brake brace. All bling. Learning to corner properly will benefit far more.

 

Unlike 95% of this forum, I know the Legacy is not a sports car and I don't want it to be a sports car; I need it to be the GT car that it is. I'm never going to track this car except for shits and giggles. However, that doesn't mean that I should or will settle with what I see as as a defective handling trait. I am also not interested in masking the issue by throwing parts at the front suspension. However, if it is improper technique that is causing the issue in this specific car with these specific tires, then a small change in driving style is easy enough to implement.

 

Regarding the 'crap' tires: I've had good experiences with the tires in the past. I do not expect the Continental DWS tires to be a performance tire; I understand the compromises and limitations of a soft-carcass all-season tire. The reason I picked up these tires is because I'm familiar with them (I've used them on my WRX) and for my usage profile (commuting, occasional spirited pleasure drives), they do the job.

 

Thanks, not for your condescending tone, but reasonable input.

 

By the way, the issue is not when the car is going 'fast', but rather when the suspension is loaded mid-corner. I didn't think I needed to say it, but I don't have much interest in pushing limits on public roads.

[JF1GG29]

However the other problem is OP is trying to steer while in the corner. at that point no amount of money spent on parts can help. A better driving technique will vastly improve the handling even on AS tires.

 

That's not the problem.

 

The problem is with the wheel already turned, and at about the apex, there is a transient 'looseness' which can result in the steering wheel turning slightly, but the wheels not moving. I'm not asking for more from the tires at the apex. I'm not on any hard traction limits here. I'm probably not going as fast on public roads as you think I am. There is no tire noise. I'm not understeering.

 

I still suspect a mechanical issue, but will try what others have suggested. I'm not terribly familiar with the stock suspension on this car.

[quick4dr]

I say again Dampener. TRY IT!

[scoobyscoodle]

If the suspension is loaded up, mid-corner at apex and additional steering input does not do anything, that is the very definition of understeer. Plain and simple.

 

The damper lockout will give you a nice responsive wheel to hold while you keep understeering around a corner, it will have zero effect on chassis balance.

 

If it were me, I'd bring front and rear tire pressures up to 38-40psi and see how that feels.

[sanchitosonria]

Just try adjusting the tire pressure before you spend any money. 40 for the front, 39 for the rear or try 39 for the front and 38 for the rear first.

 

It's free, low risk, and if nothing else you'll be able to move on to look at the next thing to try.

 

I enjoyed the Conti DWS on my 2.5i once I increased the tire pressure.

[boxkita]

did some more looking at this. Underdog's fix is the best option, however, not cheap. It removes the damper completely. The Perrin piece seems to be subjective, hence my GS MBCS comment.

 

I still hold that a change in driving technique will do more to correct your stated issues than buying new parts. Adding power or steering inputs in a corner takes you out of steady state and into under/over steer condition. At that point, you're at the mercy of your suspension & tire setup. If you seek to make the turning radius smaller while in a turn at/near the apex, you'll get understeer. However, if you lift the throttle a tad (think lift big toe), the car will turn-in tighter without turning the steering wheel at all (find a cloverleaf and try this).

 

 

 

quick4dr's rationale for the damper: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/steering-gurus-please-246431.html?t=246431&highlight=steering+damper

 

A 5th gen's experience with this same mod: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/perrin-steering-damper-lockdown-245728.html?t=245728&highlight=steering+damper

 

The correct $money$ fix (removes the damper altogether): http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/underdog-motorsports-2015-sti-steering-rack-swap-234351.html?t=234351&highlight=steering+damper

 

The math of steady state cornering - http://www.thecartech.com/subjects/auto_eng2/Handling_characteristics_of_road_vehicles.htm

[KND]

That's not the problem.

 

The problem is with the wheel already turned, and at about the apex, there is a transient 'looseness' which can result in the steering wheel turning slightly, but the wheels not moving. I'm not asking for more from the tires at the apex. I'm not on any hard traction limits here. I'm probably not going as fast on public roads as you think I am. There is no tire noise. I'm not understeering.

 

I still suspect a mechanical issue, but will try what others have suggested. I'm not terribly familiar with the stock suspension on this car.

 

He's not pushing the car hard enough in the corners to be a over steer or under steer issue. Mine was doing the exact same thing. I ended up changing the steering rack and pump. Problem fixed.

[boxkita]

He's not pushing the car hard enough in the corners to be a over steer or under steer issue. Mine was doing the exact same thing. I ended up changing the steering rack and pump. Problem fixed.

 

Uh huh.

 

If not bsme, msme, drme, autox-er, or track-hore; I call BS. If he was truly in steady state, the steering would not get light. If, in the middle of the corner, he tries to tighten the turn with the steering wheel, he's forcing an understeer condition. Doubly so, if he pushes on the throttle (that happens more in a left turn than right) which causes the front end to get light as the car squats.

[JF1GG29]

I still hold that a change in driving technique will do more to correct your stated issues than buying new parts.

I COMPLETELY agree. IF my issues are related to under-/over- steer.

 

If not bsme, msme, drme, autox-er, or track-hore; I call BS.

Kind of silly to flash 'credentials' on a forum, but I'm many of the things you've mentioned and others.

 

If he was truly in steady state, the steering would not get light.

Right, it shouldn't.

 

I don't think it's a traction issue. I think it's a mechanical issue.

[JF1GG29]

He's not pushing the car hard enough in the corners to be a over steer or under steer issue. Mine was doing the exact same thing. I ended up changing the steering rack and pump. Problem fixed.

 

Can you tell me more about your experience with this problem?

[JF1GG29]

Just try adjusting the tire pressure before you spend any money. 40 for the front, 39 for the rear or try 39 for the front and 38 for the rear first.

 

It's free, low risk, and if nothing else you'll be able to move on to look at the next thing to try.

 

I enjoyed the Conti DWS on my 2.5i once I increased the tire pressure.

 

I will try higher pressures. Those are significantly higher pressures than I'm running and also significantly higher pressures than I ran in the WRX. The LGT is a much heavier car, so I imagine it is possible that the tire is rolling on the sidewall (Conti DWS has very soft sidewalls), which might make for vague, sloppy steering in a loaded, steady-state condition.

[JF1GG29]

I say again Dampener. TRY IT!

 

I'm going to try a bunch of things, dampener probably among the last on the list. If I get there, and it turns out that it was the issue, I'll send YOU a $20 in the mail or via PayPal.

[JF1GG29]

If the suspension is loaded up, mid-corner at apex and additional steering input does not do anything, that is the very definition of understeer. Plain and simple.

 

It's hard to explain what's happening.

 

It's crucial to understand that I'm not asking for more steering. I know what understeer feels like, I've autox-ed and rallyx-ed FWD cars for many years.

 

I'll try again: mid-corner, suspension loaded up, NOT on any traction threshold, steering wheel turned and about to unwind and apply throttle for corner exit. In this brief steady-state regime, the steering feels completely disconnected with what's happening at the front wheels. I can move the steering wheel freely a few degrees, but only briefly. The front is not pushing.

 

If I turn the wheel past a few degrees, the front wheels will start to react again. If I'm a terrible driver going 'fast' and turning into the corner more, now is when understeer would happen. If I'm unwinding for corner exit, I might have to turn through a degree or two of 'nothing' at the steering wheel.

 

I hope that clears the issue up.

 

 

Here's my plan moving foward:

- being more mindful about keeping the front loaded when cornering

- increasing Conti DWS tire pressures to 39f/38r

- swap to winter rubber (yes, even lower grip w/ taller sidewalls)

- in the spring, borrowing a set of Bridestone RE050s

- inspect steering rack and ps pump

- at some point down the line, maybe a front sway bar and/or steering damper

[scoobyscoodle]

How many miles are on the car? Could the rack be on it's way out?

 

I think changing tire pressures is a good place to start.

[KND]

My steering system wasn't maintaining constant pressure. I would be in the middle of a turn at moderate speed and the wheel would get light. The car didn't alter direction in the slightest. Was happening at different speeds on all turns with brand new tires. Was a little unnerving but got use to it. Once my rack started leaking I had it changed and went ahead and did the pump. All good. Nice firm steering wheel. I to could throw around a bunch of race acronyms but what's the point. Wright down a list of possible fixes and put a price on them. Start with the cheap simple things. Save yourself some $$.

[JF1GG29]

How many miles are on the car? Could the rack be on it's way out?

 

I think changing tire pressures is a good place to start.

 

Just clicked 89k miles. I'll look into testing the steering system.

[JF1GG29]

Brought tire pressures up to 39f/38r and went for a quick spin on the highway. Car feels a lot more stable in cornering situations. I didn't get the chance to provoke the issue due to location and traffic, but I think I'm going to keep the pressures where they are for now and wait for a time to put the steering through its paces.

[JF1GG29]

Update: ran the higher pressures for a while and made the switch to winter tires. The problem still manifests in the same way, but I think I have a better handle on it now.

 

I am almost certain that it is power steering related. When the front suspension is loaded up in dynamic situations, the PS pump needs to work harder to turn the wheel vs. static loading. At some point, it seems that the PS pump can't provide enough pressure or flow for the steering assist, which is why it feels like 'nothing'.

 

I'm going to replace the PS fluid and see where that gets me. In the future, I think I need to get the pump or rack tested. Will update after the next time I work on the car. Thanks for all the input, guys!

[boxkita]

There is an o ring in the ps pump that fails over time. Perhaps that is cause of ps pump feeling like pressure falls off?

[JF1GG29]

There is an o ring in the ps pump that fails over time. Perhaps that is cause of ps pump feeling like pressure falls off?

 

Thanks for the tip; I'll look into it!

 

EDIT:

Subaru SOA # 34439FG000

Reference: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/power-steering-o-ring-fix-197481.html

 

Seems stupidly simple. I'll pick up the part and do it when I replace the PS fluid. Would be thrilled if this resolves the original problem.

[Max Capacity]

JF1GG29, have you done about 5 figure 8's in a parking lot at slow speed going lock to lock on the steering wheel, that will bleed any air out of the PS system.

 

That's easy and free. Or just jack the front end up and do it in the driveway.