Autocrosser switching to Legacy needs tips

[ChrisK]

I just bought a Legacy GT sedan in August, and with my 1000 guilt miles now on the odometer, I took it to its first autocross. I could sum up my first autocross in my Legacy with one word: Wow. Some good "wows" and some bad.

 

I previously autocrossed my Miata, and with the addition of its Azenis this year I was turning in respectable times (with a full-time passenger no less). I sold the Miata last month, however (long story) so my Legacy is my new autocross beast. Last Sunday was my first run. What follows are my thoughts on switching from my Miata to my Legacy for autocross, and a plea for some information to help me improve a bit. I have never learned to be succinct, but I have questions at the bottom if you don't mind sharing your thoughts.

 

First off, it was very wet on Sunday at the track. Biblical rains, in fact. I was actually happy with this, as it would level the playing field somewhat between my HORRIBLE RE92's and everyone else's... well... real tires. It would also give me a better feel for what AWD was doing to my car.

 

Speaking of the RE92's...well, maybe I shouldn't speak of them. They are absolutely the worst tire I have ever driven, and that's saying a lot since my old GTP came with Goodyear Eagle RS-A's! But then you all knew that.

 

I expected some understeer from my Legacy, but not quite what I got. I got a lot of lift-throttle oversteer (that's fine, I'm used to it), but in actual cornering the car pushes badly how I was driving it. This only gets worse at corner exit, where it seemed that any gas I gave it went straight to the front wheels, washing me out towards the outer cones every time. I was hoping for more point-and-go as the center diff balanced the power. I really need to learn to drive this car, and any tips would be welcome!

 

What I didn't expect was how horrible the gearing is for autocross! Our track was comprised of a lot of long sweepers followed by hairpins (atypical for our club). With my Miata I am used to shifting to second at the first straight and leaving it there the whole run. Rarely would I hit the limiter in second. Doing this in the Legacy I ended up at 2000RPM after every slow corner, according to my codriver. COMPLETE bog. I tried downshifting once, but it really upset the car, and I quickly ran out of first gear.

 

Another thing I didn't expect was how quiet the engine is. Annoyingly quiet, in fact. I couldn't tell when I was on the limiter, which is very unnerving. My codriver told me I had the rev limiter pegged a few times. Hopefully this intake silencer removal people are talking about will help, because I felt very disconnected from the car, and probably short shifted first by 2000RPM.

 

All told, the car was a lot of fun. I was way off the pace, but I figure if I can figure out how to work around the gearing problem and put some Azenis on it, I can be very competitive. (My primary goal is reaching something like the neutral handling nirvana that was my Miata. Being competitive is merely a side-benefit.)

 

Now for the questions:

 

1) I'm new to AWD cars. How do you guys keep the nose tucked in all the way through a corner? I could pop the rear out by shifting the weight forward abruptly, but I lose tons of time catching this big heavy car. Additionally, corners that were too long to just toss and catch the car left me understeering hopelessly, shredding the fronts.

 

2) What do you guys do with the gears? Do you live with the bog? 2000RPM is amazingly sluggish to me, but I am used to my NA, quick-revving Miata, so I might just be expecting too much? Is it a hopeless weakness when autocrossing this car? It's KILLING my times.

 

3) What range of adjustments can I get on a stock Legacy GT suspension? How much camber can I get on either axle? How about caster? Toe?

 

4) Aside from adjusting my driving style, what's the basic alignment cure you might recommend for curing steady state and corner exit understeer? Is it as simple as adding tons of negative camber to the front, ala BMW? Do I have to mess with toe? Is that even desireable with power going to the front wheels? I don't want to kill my tires, as I'll be using Azenis as summer tires next year, but I can live with wearing the insides if I need some big camber.

 

I expect to totally change driving style to be fast in this car. I'm starting from square one here. Some basic tips for getting up to speed (ha) with the Legacy would be most helpful! Thanks!

 

(if you read this far, PM me for a free set of RE92's )

[Xenonk]

Now for the questions:

 

1) I'm new to AWD cars. How do you guys keep the nose tucked in all the way through a corner? I could pop the rear out by shifting the weight forward abruptly, but I lose tons of time catching this big heavy car. Additionally, corners that were too long to just toss and catch the car left me understeering hopelessly, shredding the fronts.

 

2) What do you guys do with the gears? Do you live with the bog? 2000RPM is amazingly sluggish to me, but I am used to my NA, quick-revving Miata, so I might just be expecting too much? Is it a hopeless weakness when autocrossing this car? It's KILLING my times.

 

3) What range of adjustments can I get on a stock Legacy GT suspension? How much camber can I get on either axle? How about caster? Toe?

 

4) Aside from adjusting my driving style, what's the basic alignment cure you might recommend for curing steady state and corner exit understeer? Is it as simple as adding tons of negative camber to the front, ala BMW? Do I have to mess with toe? Is that even desireable with power going to the front wheels? I don't want to kill my tires, as I'll be using Azenis as summer tires next year, but I can live with wearing the insides if I need some big camber.

 

I expect to totally change driving style to be fast in this car. I'm starting from square one here. Some basic tips for getting up to speed (ha) with the Legacy would be most helpful! Thanks!

 

(if you read this far, PM me for a free set of RE92's )

 

 

1) LTO - lift throttle oversteer & LFB - left-foot braking, be smoother, you're throwing the car around too much.

 

2) You shouldnt ever be that low in rpms, you're driving too slow. You should always be at 3500 rpms and up. Carry more speed into a turn.

 

3) Max out the negative camber bolts up front, rear is fixed and is not adjustable really. 1/16" toe out for the front is good. Caster is also not adjustable for stock.

 

4) Alignment isn't going to be much of advantage here. Your driving style needs the improvement, change the tire pressures, that will be a great help to you.

 

In all, sounds like you are not carrying enough speed and that you are throwing the car around too much to make use of it. Like your miata, momentum is the key here and being smooth and not overdriving your tires will give you a faster time.

[ChrisK]

Thanks, Keefe!

 

1) LTO - lift throttle oversteer & LFB - left-foot braking, be smoother, you're throwing the car around too much.

 

Understood. It was really tough to gauge, coming from a Miata AND dealing with the rain. My Miata liked late straight-line braking and acceleration through the corner. The Legacy sure didn't like that on my maiden run. Hopefully I scrubbed a bunch of that awful RE92 off my rims.

 

2) You shouldnt ever be that low in rpms, you're driving too slow. You should always be at 3500 rpms and up. Carry more speed into a turn.

 

So you just let excess speed scrub off by sliding? Do you just wait for the front to bite then hit the gas? The two problem corners I had were a TIGHT 170 degree left hairpin with a cone wall tight on the outside and a tight gate on exit, and a tight square corner after that... a 180 degree right corner (about the width of three parking spaces) with a tight gate on the exit. Both wicked, slow corners that gave me fits. I don't know any way to approach those that would keep me much above 20mph. Hopefully my technique will improve, because slow in, fast out left me hanging in these corners.

 

Also, do you downshift to first much in Solo II? I never had to in the Miata, but I'm curious how you guys do it.

 

3) Max out the negative camber bolts up front, rear is fixed and is not adjustable really. 1/16" toe out for the front is good. Caster is also not adjustable for stock.

 

Excellent! Thanks, Keefe. Do you remember about how much camber you could get out of your car when it was stock? And did you notice excessive wear on the street at that setting, if you even kept the stock suspension long enough to notice wear?

 

4) Alignment isn't going to be much of advantage here. Your driving style needs the improvement, change the tire pressures, that will be a great help to you.

 

Oh, certainly! I'll be the first to admit I'm a Grade-A newbie again with the Legacy. 2500lbs to 3300lbs. NA to turbo. RWD to AWD. You'd be hard-pressed to find two MORE different cars. But learning is half the fun, eh?

 

FWIW, I was running 38psi all around. I wasn't consistent enough all day to bother changing the pressures; I don't know the car well enough yet. I usually run 34-36psi, but I figured with the cold damp ground that a little more air would help.

 

In all, sounds like you are not carrying enough speed and that you are throwing the car around too much to make use of it. Like your miata, momentum is the key here and being smooth and not overdriving your tires will give you a faster time.

 

Again, thanks for the advice!

[Xenonk]

Thanks, Keefe!

 

Understood. It was really tough to gauge, coming from a Miata AND dealing with the rain. My Miata liked late straight-line braking and acceleration through the corner. The Legacy sure didn't like that on my maiden run. Hopefully I scrubbed a bunch of that awful RE92 off my rims.

 

So you just let excess speed scrub off by sliding? Do you just wait for the front to bite then hit the gas? I don't know any way to approach those that would keep me much above 20mph. Hopefully my technique will improve, because slow in, fast out left me hanging in these corners.

 

Also, do you downshift to first much in Solo II? I never had to in the Miata, but I'm curious how you guys do it.

 

Excellent! Thanks, Keefe. Do you remember about how much camber you could get out of your car when it was stock? And did you notice excessive wear on the street at that setting, if you even kept the stock suspension long enough to notice wear?

 

Again, thanks for the advice!

 

You'll learn when the diffs kick in and what they do based on your throttle input and braking. This is the "new" portion of the car that you will need to learn on your own. I never downshift in the GT because there's enough power in 2nd for a lot of things, maybe once or twice (out of 100s of runs) in the WRX because of the taller tires and taller final drive, but with the GT using smaller tires and a shorter final drive, there is no need to downshift ever. I can't imagine going through a turn at 20 mph.. I would feel too slow and rather get out of my car and run on foot faster than that.

 

As for the "scrubbing" to slow down, it's really not scrubbing, you are purposely loading the front with some weight and making sure the front end grips to pivot while the rear is stepping out to aid you in the aiming portion, all this added with the momentum to keep you moving in the direction you want to go. Just think of it this way as you did with your miata but with a twist:

 

Front tires do the aiming (just like the miata), rear tires do the pushing of the car (just like the miata), the rear end can swing because it is unloaded (just like the miata).. the difference is that when you get back on the throttle, the front end pulls you as well. The trick is understanding when the grip comes in and how much throttle to add to keep the inside front wheel from spinning too much and not transmitting the power to the outside front and the rear tires.

 

From my knowledge and preaching, there is no such thing as a tight turn. It's the line theory that you must apply to understand how to carry as much momentum through a single turn or compound turns to make the most of it.

 

Tire pressures will differ and it's just something you should keep a log of for yourself.. I have had other co-drivers that drive my car and said they think the car is way too loose or way too tight. This is something that you will need to adjust based on your driving style and habits.

 

When I first started autoxing, I use to run 48 psi to 51 psi (cold) just because the tires were still rolling over.. after 6 years of competitive autocrossing and car control clinlic classes, I have reduced that pressure down to as low as 28 psi cold (32 psi hot). As your driving start to smooth out, you'll realize that your tires are over inflated to make use of the grip. It's all a learning process.

 

My GT ran with -0.5 degrees front and -1.0 rear for camber and 0 toe all around.

[NatesGr8]

swaybars and new tires work wonders

 

might also want to consider some new springs, for auto x the stock suspension is too soft

[ChrisK]

Front tires do the aiming (just like the miata), rear tires do the pushing of the car (just like the miata), the rear end can swing because it is unloaded (just like the miata).. the difference is that when you get back on the throttle, the front end pulls you as well. The trick is understanding when the grip comes in and how much throttle to add to keep the inside front wheel from spinning too much and not transmitting the power to the outside front and the rear tires.

 

I see. So on corner exit do you typically use the throttle to adjust your slip angle to help steer you to the exit (like a rally driver on dirt might do), or do you get the car pointed at the apex first and then lay on the gas to pull you out?

 

I think part of my problem yesterday was that I was asking the front tires to do way too much. I was driving like my Miata, where I would brake hard, corner hard, then get on the gas before I even apexed, while my fronts still had to steer me through the corner. I think I was washing out the fronts with what little gas I was giving them (especially easy to do in the rain, I suppose).

 

My GT ran with -0.5 degrees front and -1.0 rear for camber and 0 toe all around.

 

Cool, I'll use that as a baseline next season. I need a starting point to tune it to my taste, and I figured my Miata's final alignment of -1.25/-1.75 camber, 1/16th toe front/back, 5.5deg camber wouldn't work so hot.

 

Thanks again for indulding me, Keefe. I was a bit worried coming into the Legacy community that moving away from the autocross-crazy Miata community would mean a lack of knowledgeable people to talk autocross with. That's not that case here!

 

Finally, since you're watching this thread, if you might indulge an OT question, I'm considering summer/autox tires for next year. I loved my RT-615's on my Miata, and I would order them for my Legacy, but I'm curious if there are any other tires with nearly the same dry grip, but significantly better wet handling? If not that's fine; I was OK with the rain handling on my Miata, but I miss the amazing rain performance of my Firehawk FZ50's a bit for my new daily driver.

[ChrisK]

Thanks Nate. A sway bar is on my list, but not until I really learn to drive the car. I want to be sure I really need a sway bar before I add one. I don't want to reduce understeer by simply reducing rear grip!

 

Springs are way out of my budget right now. I'm even gonna wait to replace the RE92's until after winter. Hopefully they're decent in the deep Wisconsin snow!

[S4]

I see. So on corner exit do you typically use the throttle to adjust your slip angle to help steer you to the exit (like a rally driver on dirt might do), or do you get the car pointed at the apex first and then lay on the gas to pull you out?

 

I think part of my problem yesterday was that I was asking the front tires to do way too much. I was driving like my Miata, where I would brake hard, corner hard, then get on the gas before I even apexed, while my fronts still had to steer me through the corner. I think I was washing out the fronts with what little gas I was giving them (especially easy to do in the rain, I suppose).

 

 

 

Cool, I'll use that as a baseline next season. I need a starting point to tune it to my taste, and I figured my Miata's final alignment of -1.25/-1.75 camber, 1/16th toe front/back, 5.5deg camber wouldn't work so hot.

 

Thanks again for indulding me, Keefe. I was a bit worried coming into the Legacy community that moving away from the autocross-crazy Miata community would mean a lack of knowledgeable people to talk autocross with. That's not that case here!

 

Finally, since you're watching this thread, if you might indulge an OT question, I'm considering summer/autox tires for next year. I loved my RT-615's on my Miata, and I would order them for my Legacy, but I'm curious if there are any other tires with nearly the same dry grip, but significantly better wet handling? If not that's fine; I was OK with the rain handling on my Miata, but I miss the amazing rain performance of my Firehawk FZ50's a bit for my new daily driver.

I like the RT615s on the Legacy for a daily tire, makes things LOTS of fun. Plus, they're better in the rain than the RE92s were.

[Xenonk]

swaybars and new tires work wonders

 

might also want to consider some new springs, for auto x the stock suspension is too soft

 

 

In stock class,only the front sway is allowed to be changed.

 

In other words, I am letting people be more aware about modifying a car can put you in a different class which in all, does not improve your driving skills.

 

Any driver with a medicore car can out perform a medicore driver with a great car.. remember, a car is nothing without a driver, the car just sits there.

 

Be aware that mods put you in a different class and that winning the class will be harder.. just learn how to drive the car as-is and build your skills out from there. There is no sense in driving a car with mods if you never knew what the car was capable of in the first place. Adding new parts is only changing the car's potential, it's your job to extract the potential out.

[Xenonk]

Thanks Nate. A sway bar is on my list, but not until I really learn to drive the car. I want to be sure I really need a sway bar before I add one. I don't want to reduce understeer by simply reducing rear grip!

 

Another misconception of what sway bars can do in a sense.

 

Sway bars increase the grip level by using the inside tires to remain planted as long as possible, but the "window of opportunity" is shorten, meaning you can have more grip, but you also have a higher possibility of missing that sweet spot of the grip.. this is the trade-off. Most people over drive the car and feel that the car is purposely losing grip when adding sway bars while other drivers that understand how sway bars work will add more grip to the car by slowly adding smaller increments of adjustments to their driving style.

[Tommyh]

In stock class,only the front sway is allowed to be changed.

 

In other words, I am letting people be more aware about modifying a car can put you in a different class which in all, does not improve your driving skills.

 

That I did not know...Thanks, I'll be watching this thread as a Noob to AWD and still very new to auto-x so I need all the help I can get.

[rallispec]

I just started autox'ing the legacy this past spring, and honestly, I dont' hate the RE-92's that much. I've managed to stay within the bulk of the pack at each event i've raced at on them - and i'm a beginer, mediocer driver at best. Just keep the air pressure up high and they should hang in there.

 

 

Like Keefe said, the key to unlocking the speed of the legacy is to keep it smooth.

[ChrisK]

My understanding is that the stiffer the bar, the more weight gets transferred to the outside wheel. And there's a balance between how much traction you gain by loading up the outside tire versus how much traction you lose by simultaneously unloading the inside tire. With a too-stiff bar (or indeed a solid suspension) you exceed the outside tires' ability to grip, while underutilizing the inside tire, reducing overall grip on that axle. And this is only exasperated by an open diff, which will then absolutely smoke the unloaded tire.

 

Am I off-base? I'm no suspension expert, by any means!

 

I'm not looking to add parts to make me faster. A RSB is on my list of potential buys because I like my car to take a real quick set in a corner. I'm not so concerned about my class (although my club allows RSBs in stock... a slight variation on SCCA rules.) as I am about having fun on the track. Hopefully I can get the car handling how I want without buying parts. But if not, some bars will probably do the trick.

 

What I DO need to add to the car is a whole ton of seat time.

[Xenonk]

My understanding is that the stiffer the bar, the more weight gets transferred to the outside wheel. And there's a balance between how much traction you gain by loading up the outside tire versus how much traction you lose by simultaneously unloading the inside tire. With a too-stiff bar (or indeed a solid suspension) you exceed the outside tires' ability to grip, while underutilizing the inside tire, reducing overall grip on that axle. And this is only exasperated by an open diff, which will then absolutely smoke the unloaded tire.

 

Am I off-base? I'm no suspension expert, by any means!

 

I'm not looking to add parts to make me faster. A RSB is on my list of potential buys because I like my car to take a real quick set in a corner. I'm not so concerned about my class (although my club allows RSBs in stock... a slight variation on SCCA rules.) as I am about having fun on the track. Hopefully I can get the car handling how I want without buying parts. But if not, some bars will probably do the trick.

 

What I DO need to add to the car is a whole ton of seat time.

 

Actually, the sway bar transfer some of that force or weight to the inside wheels.. basically you are using the inside springs to help keep the car car level.. think of it as bench pressing.. it's hard to bench press 300 lbs with one arm so you get the other arm to help you out to even out the weight.. it's a lot easier to bench press 300 lbs with two arms than one.. the bench bar is your sway bar.. the thicker it is, the easier it is for you stabilize the weight so that you can use both arms to push up all the applied weight. This is the same case for sway bars (except bench pressing you are pushing weight up, not down, same difference).

 

You are correct about overloading the outside tire. This is where I tell people that they are overdriving the car. The sway bar is there to give you a better level of resistance to roll, but when you go past that threshold when the inside tire starts lifting, you are screwing yourself over and you are overloading the tire. It's like letting one arm go/slip off the bar while bench pressing.

 

Just understand the car's reaction to your actions. You dicate what the car is going to do. You're the driver YOU ARE THE DRIVER, not the DriveE

 

EDIT, it's not all the force, just a portion of it.

[Aczwild]

Actually, the sway bar transfer all that force or weight to the inside wheels.. basically you are using the inside springs to help keep the car car level.. think of it as bench pressing.. it's hard to bench press 300 lbs with one arm so you get the other arm to help you out to even out the weight.. it's a lot easier to bench press 300 lbs with two arms than one.. the bench bar is your sway bar.. the thicker it is, the easier it is for you stabilize the weight so that you can use both arms to push up all the applied weight. This is the same case for sway bars (except bench pressing you are pushing weight up, not down, same difference).

 

You are correct about overloading the outside tire. This is where I tell people that they are overdriving the car. The sway bar is there to give you a better level of resistance to roll, but when you go past that threshold when the inside tire starts lifting, you are screwing yourself over and you are overloading the tire. It's like letting one arm go/slip off the bar while bench pressing.

 

Just understand the car's reaction to your actions. You dicate what the car is going to do. You're the driver YOU ARE THE DRIVER, not the DriveE

Simply amazing! Keefe is the all mighty buddah

[Xenonk]

Simply amazing! Keefe is the all mighty buddah

 

well, I am actually Buddist

 

Just get a lot of seat time in and the same time get an instructor in the car with you to let you know what you need to adjust... the way an instructor can tell what the car is doing just sitting in the passenger seat all by feel (or by the seat of the instructor's pants). You can sense when the rear end gets power, you can feel when the car is biting just the front tires, or even tire lift and brake lock-up.

 

I will quote one of my teammate's thoughts in one of the emails he wrote to another teammate of mine:

 

"If you are learning to play tennis hitting ball is good, however, hitting balls while taking lessons is much better. Two hours spent practicing a serve using improper form merely creates muscle memory of bad habits.

 

I think you are too focused on how many minutes you are on track. Once the newness of racing wears off you should get serious about getting faster; learn that the answer is not to buy new cams. You need to realize that a great driver in a slow car can keep up with a mediocre driver in a great car. Be a great student and your car will get faster without turning a wrench. What you are looking for is not more untutored

track time."

[ChrisK]

So give me a quick sanity check here. If I'm understanding this correctly, the sway bar prevents body roll. This keeps the car more level, and allows the inside tire to hold more weight, making it do more work.

 

Having more body roll (ie: with a softer sway bar) will give more traction on the outer tire, and potentially increase cornering grip. But TOO MUCH body roll will overload the outside tire and underload the inside tire, giving you LESS grip.

 

So to maximize grip, you should use a bar that is just barely stiff enough to prevent the outside tire from getting too much weight transfer, overloading its ability to grip? Assuming you can't adjust springs/dampers. Too soft and you overload the outside tire. Too hard and you not only overload the outside tire and make it slip, but your suspension doesn't operate independently anymore either, causing all kinds of other problems.

 

Does this sound about right?

[ChrisK]

I agree the nut behind the wheel is the biggest improvement to be made. I knew I had a mountain of progress to make when I first started autocrossing and saw some of the better regional drivers posting times four SECONDS faster than me. Granted, they had better tires and all the extra bits you can install and still be stock, but a catback here and a sway bar there doesn't make up THAT much time!

 

Top of my Christmas list right now is a performance driving school, preferably autocross oriented. I just have to find a good one somewhere in the midwest.

[Xenonk]

So give me a quick sanity check here. If I'm understanding this correctly, the sway bar prevents body roll. This keeps the car more level, and allows the inside tire to hold more weight, making it do more work.

 

So to maximize grip, you should use a bar that is just barely stiff enough to prevent the outside tire from getting too much weight transfer, overloading its ability to grip? Assuming you can't adjust springs/dampers. Too soft and you overload the outside tire. Too hard and you not only overload the outside tire and make it slip, but your suspension doesn't operate independently anymore either, causing all kinds of other problems.

 

Does this sound about right?

 

You got this right on the dot! As you can see (or read between the lines of your own post here), the driver's duty is to know that limit. This is why I recommend adding sway bars (aka anti-roll bars is the proper name of the part) later in the modifications list as a final touch to the car. Rally drivers usually disconnect the sways to have full independence per corner. They can live without a sway bar. Know your ability and know the car's.. then you can add the parts to fit your driving style, not just adding them for the sake of having it. The sway bar ties the two control arms together using a small bar (the sway bar). This bar has flex so it takes in some of the slack and doesn't transfer all of the force applied to the outside tire, but it will take in some proportion of it.

 

 

Having more body roll (ie: with a softer sway bar) will give more traction on the outer tire, and potentially increase cornering grip. But TOO MUCH body roll will overload the outside tire and underload the inside tire, giving you LESS grip.

 

This is where camber alignments come into play.. there is no sense of running -4.0 of front camber if your car never rolls or lift (since you are wasting all that potential tire contact patch). And there is no sense in running a set of wide tires if you are never going to roll that far on top of the crazy amounts of camber (why run a 285mm wide tire when only 200mm of it is effectively touching the ground? and better yet, why just have 2 tires on the ground when you can have all 4 tires on the ground).

 

See my pic here of why I need stiffer springs and shocks (even though I already have 8kg/6kg Zeal Coilovers V6s and Cusco 23mm front and 21mm rear adjustable sways), and possibly a better alignment and wider tires, the inside is still lifting and I am using all of the 225/45/17 r-compounds on the left side.. I need to put those inside tires down for more grip:

http://www.salazar-racing.com/images/GT-HPDE3IMG_0026.jpg

http://www.salazar-racing.com/images/GT-HPDE3IMG_9929.jpg

http://www.salazar-racing.com/images/764web.jpg

[sutter2k]

In stock class,only the front sway is allowed to be changed.

 

Curiuos would the jdm bar count as stock? Is that something that would get noticed?

[Xenonk]

According to the rule book, it's not legal. It's just like the big debate over the X-brace found on the M3 Lightweights and not on the regular M3s for stock class.. the rule state that you may only change the front sway bar, catback exhaust, drop-in filter, shocks inserts that do not change the ride height. Even some optional equipment such as the short shifter kit that is offered from the dealer is questionable, but it's allowed I think. The dealer of the USA must be the supplier of the part.

 

So in your answer, a rear JDM sway bar is an illegal mod for stock class. The only time anyone will care is if you are beating the class and coming in first place.

[ChrisK]

Awesome, thanks Keefe! I think it's all starting to click, finally.

 

The biggest question remaining in my head right now is whether I want to replace the RE92's before the start of next season, or run them for a while before buying some RT-615's. I don't want to burn off a set of Azenis before I learn how to not melt the inside front on corner exit, like I WOULD have done this past weekend were it not for nice slippery pools of standing water. But I'm not even happy with the street performance of the RE92's... The fact that ABS kicks in when stopping from 40MPH in this car is pretty pathetic. My Miata could stop faster in heavy rain than my Legacy does in the dry! I can feel the potential of this car being wasted by the horrible rubber, even on the street.

 

Looking back on my initial difficulties with my Legacy this past Sunday, it would seem my biggest problem is my driving style, ingrained from a few seasons in my Miata. The new car, crappy tires, and submerged bumpy track sure didn't help matters, either!

 

I can't wait to get back on the track, now. I guess the next step is to search the forums for a good driving school in the midwest. Like you said, there's tons more time to be made up by making ME faster than there is by making my car faster.

 

Again, thanks to everyone who has responded!

[RobY]

I ditched the RE-92's after less than 1000 miles. I couldn't stand them. They are a huge handicap to the car.

 

I really didnt learn much from the RE-92's they make you overly cautious IMHO. When I switched to a real set of tires I found myself slowing down way too much even when the tires had plenty of grip to spare.

 

I had kinda been conditioned not to press down too hard on the brakes for fear of ABS lockup. I had been conditioned to take corners slower to prevent the nasty squeal and low grip limit the tires exhibited.

 

The funny thing is that you autoxed them in the rain which I think is where this tire performs the WORST. My Blizzak WS-50's complained less and werent any worse in the dry than these. And thats a DEDICATED snow tire!

 

Even if you drive like a grandma these tires are marginally acceptable. I find it embarrasing that subaru is putting these tires on this car when most other manufacturers put them on thier economy class cars. All of subaru's competition in its respective class is using tires that are orders of magnatude better than RE-92's

[Xenonk]

Awesome, thanks Keefe! I think it's all starting to click, finally.

 

The biggest question remaining in my head right now is whether I want to replace the RE92's before the start of next season, or run them for a while before buying some RT-615's. I don't want to burn off a set of Azenis before I learn how to not melt the inside front on corner exit, like I WOULD have done this past weekend were it not for nice slippery pools of standing water. But I'm not even happy with the street performance of the RE92's... The fact that ABS kicks in when stopping from 40MPH in this car is pretty pathetic. My Miata could stop faster in heavy rain than my Legacy does in the dry! I can feel the potential of this car being wasted by the horrible rubber, even on the street.

 

 

You might as well burn off the RE92s (save your money) or even buying a set of used tires while you are at it (of which I do most of the time, see my garage or tire threads some time). Used tires are the way to go if you are just practicing, regardless if they are RE92s or not. Hell, I used RE92s for drifting practice with my WRX because of its smooth breakpoint unlike an r-compound or a stickier tire. Nothing wrong with learning on a less grip tire because it's more forgiving of your input mistakes. When you use a stickier tire, it's going to demand more from you as a driver. Stickier tires can increase more understeer in the process if are you already doing that now with stock tires.

 

Rain/standing water makes you a better driver at the end of the day. This gives you an idea of how to deal with grip on a more sensitive level. Take a class that focus on car control.. I spent probably over 8 hours worth of seat time around a wet skid pad practicing holding a drift and learning how, when, and where the car would start to over and understeer between dry patches and wet patches of pavement and a mix of left wet tires with right dry tires (vice versa).. and even on peanut oil (which simulates iced pavement). AWD is one fun thing to play with in the wet, use it to your advantage. I am not sure how far Tire Rack's testing facility (aka the playground) is from you, but they have a skid pad out there that they can wet down.. see if there are any local clubs that rent out that testing facility so that you can practice on there. Out here in the Mid-A, we have autox schools hosted by SCCA members, so it's worth the time to just practice on cheap tires during these kinds of events, it's only going to demand from you more as a driver.

 

As for your miata driving style translating over to the GT, you have developed some habits that you have not realized yet that is already harming your general driving skills. A really good driver can and will know how to handle any car and any drivetrain format because that driver knows how the applied physics work, how car dynamics work, and has a high understanding of the traction circle.

 

From what you are already telling me that the ABS is acting too quickly is already telling me that you still need practice with threshold braking. Smoother pressure with the throttle and brakes is the key to control the car (as most high level performance drivers prefer not to turn the wheel as much to keep the car as stable as possible when going fast).. when you get to a higher level of driving, you will understand the meaning of "less brakes stops faster".

 

The other day my friend/instructor and I had a convo of me making up "excuses" about how my r-compound tires are finally "done" and that the weight of my GT is really putting some damage on the tires going through the track and that I couldn't go any faster for a better lap time.. he posted this up because I started sound like a typical ricer all over again :

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMjczOTIxNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

 

So remember, it's all about your driving.. the car (or any car for that matter) has a lot of potential, regardless if it's a miata or a legacy. It's your duty to realize the mistakes you are doing, and if you don't, get someone that can sit there and point them out to you.. learning without an instructor is a long and very fustrating path. Even instructors get other instructors to ride along to point out some mistakes which are common habits we all form without even knowing it because we dont see any damage or negative effect of repeating that habit. The REAL damage is that there is no good progress by repeating those habits..

 

Another instructor this weekend reminded me of this: "practice makes habits, it does not make things perfect. Practice good habits and you'll have good results. Practice bad habits and you'll never advance any further."

[ChrisK]

Alright, you convinced me. I'll beat the snot out of the RE92's for a while. It's a hard pill to swallow losing all that grip coming from 215/40-16 RT-615's on my Miata, but my initial performance was poor enough that I probably won't get much out of more grip just yet.

 

Maybe I'll burn up the tires at Evolution's school next spring, if they offer it. I can't imagine what a full day of training would do to a set of Azenis.