gtonstilts Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 hey guys i just installed a 20mm RSB installed a few days ago, it makes a huge difference! car is an 05 outback 2.5xt stage 2 with legacy 2.5i springs and struts upon installation i noticed one of my links had a bit of play, i plan to replace it soon just cause it has play, however i now have a bit of noise on bumps now and didn't before i was going to use oem links but im tempted to get the avo adjustable and possibly the avo mount reinforcements too, but i don't want to spend the extra $ if oem will work fine i enjoy a bit of turn carving but deff will stay a street car i also plan to get the megan 4 piece rear lateral arms so i can fix my alignment rear toe is .6 and camber is -.8 i want more like toe 0.0 and camber -1.2 I am also toying with the idea of the avo rear under brace 4 piece set, a rear tie bar, and possibly an avo front 4 point front brace. my question is which of these is worth the money and makes a noticeable difference ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dujo Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 The mount reinforcements are a great idea. The stock mounting tabs were only designed to handle the stock rear sway bar. They are a pretty long lever with a big torsion bar working on them all the time. An upgraded rsb could eventually bend the stockers. The reinforcement plates firm that up quite a bit. As far as adjustable endlinks, some like 'em, some don't. Personally, I felt like there was a pretty heavy load on the endlinks and I didn't like the idea that the adjustable parts might not hold up to the load. Lots of people run adjustable endlinks with no problems though, so decide what's important to you. I went with the Kartboy solid endlinks to go with my Whiteline bar and AVO reinforcement brackets. The stock endlinks are crap though. Get something aftermarket. The unibody chassis on these cars is actually generally considered to be relatively stiff. It's not like we're talking about a Fox body Mustang here. A lot of the bracing will have pretty minimal effect other than bling. It will stiffen things up some, but there's not a lot of bang for your buck there on braces. Some might disagree, but I think it's overkill/unnecessary on a street car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxman Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 The clunk is the worn out end links, the stock bar is noodly enough to not make it clunk, the new RSB isn't noodly thus the clunk you didn't have before. You'll likely find that your fronts are worn out as well but also not clunking. I put Moog end links on, they're beefier than stock and don't cost a testicle like some of the others. And I'd definitely recommend that you reinforce the mounts. I can't speak to the rest of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BX77 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 did you tighten everything with the car on the ground? If not that's whats clunking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboboost Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 FWIW, I have the WL adjustable endlinks and have been very pleased with them. I was originally going to purchase the solid ELs, but was warned of clunking due to being lowered. If budget is an issue, I would pick up Moogs and consider a matching FSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Just ordered: 1/4 rear saggy butt spacer Moog rear links (should fix the noise) AVO reinforcements for RSB Megan rear adjustable 4 piece lateral arms got it all for $480 :-) on a side note today was the first time my hatch was empty enough to really carve a turn and it felt okish but man it squeals like a banshee ! even at 30 mph in some s turns it was really loud i have tried 32psi 34psi 36psi and even 40psi and it squeals with all of them. I'm hoping the lateral arms and another alignment will take care of that my rear toe is .6 on both sides, one of the adjusters made no change when being aligned, so they just made the other side match i also plan to add more camber as it sits the alignment is rear toe .6 rear camber -.8 front toe 0 and front camber -1 im going to shoot for -1.2 rear w 0 toe and -1.5 front w zero toe with a normal load (about 150lbs) in hatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dujo Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Not sure how much this affects you with your new geometry, but the stock eccentric camber bolt on the LGT front suspension is good for up to about -1.5 degrees of camber. If you want more than that adjustable top hats will get you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 yea i was hoping for -1.5 in the front, i maxed the negative out when installing the new struts and springs, the result was -1LF -1.1RF i do not want adjustable top hats, so i will most likely hog out the lower strut holes. I'm toying with the idea of slotting the top hat holes for a tad more caster or drilling new holes right next to the oem holes i know they make offset bushings, however many vehicles require slotting for out of spec adjustment so i see no issue with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapnJack Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 As for all the AVO reinforcement brackets... I have every one that AVO makes installed on my car. It stiffens the car substantially. When I start jacking the car up on the front corner, it doesn't twist nearly as much as before I installed them. I know some of it is the massive swaybars I have installed, but I noticed a difference from before and after install. I saw a pretty noticeable improvement in handling too, but it came at a cost of a substantial increase in NVH. They also don't hold up well to salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted September 18, 2014 Author Share Posted September 18, 2014 got the moog installed today what a difference ! its twice as smooth silent takes bumps like a damn beemer now ! i also put the new links in the 2nd set of holes (tword front of car) its just perfect now the moogs are masive compaired to oem !!!!! seriously double the girth, i will post pics and part number later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 since i last left off i now have the megan 4 pc rear lateral arm set all adjustable, avo rsb reinforcement, new front endlinks, f polly bushings sway bushings also it has been aligned to some fairly aggressive specs: F caster 5.6 F camber -1.8 0 toe F & R R camber -1.3 it feels great, still has a bit of under stear but its world better than stock OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 The WL ALK caster bushing kit would be a great upgrade, and you'd be able to get around 7 degrees caster, with less dynamic camber loss in corners. Assuming you have good tires (really THE most important component in the system), the next biggest upgrade for you in terms of bang/buck is absolutely a set of Koni inserts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragman Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I'd say buy a front WL sway bar too. I drove my 05 LGT wagon for a year with just the rear 20mm WL bar + AVO RSB support brackets + moog end links all around. It was good. But, when I added the front bar, it become GREAT. Definitely feels better balanced with both bars. I'd say its a must. Some recommend just the rear bar, but I don't based on my personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 I'd say buy a front WL sway bar too. I drove my 05 LGT wagon for a year with just the rear 20mm WL bar + AVO RSB support brackets + moog end links all around. It was good. But, when I added the front bar, it become GREAT. Definitely feels better balanced with both bars. I'd say its a must. Some recommend just the rear bar, but I don't based on my personal experience. Problem with that is I want slight oversteer. (I am acustomed to a supra) and despise under steer, As it sits now It's close to neutral, but still needs to rotate more. In order for me to be ok with a Front sway upgrade the rear would have to be bigger than I have ever seen! I'm wishing I had gotten the 22mm rear, but for now it will have to do, because I just put way to much $ into it to go replacing things that are already new Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Problem with that is I want slight oversteer. (I am acustomed to a supra) and despise under steer, As it sits now It's close to neutral, but still needs to rotate more. In order for me to be ok with a Front sway upgrade the rear would have to be bigger than I have ever seen! I'm wishing I had gotten the 22mm rear, but for now it will have to do, because I just put way to much $ into it to go replacing things that are already new You could go with stiffer springs in the rear. That could help give you a little oversteer. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragman Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Problem with that is I want slight oversteer. (I am acustomed to a supra) and despise under steer, As it sits now It's close to neutral, but still needs to rotate more. In order for me to be ok with a Front sway upgrade the rear would have to be bigger than I have ever seen! I'm wishing I had gotten the 22mm rear, but for now it will have to do, because I just put way to much $ into it to go replacing things that are already new Check back with us after some snow driving. That's where the rear only WL bar felt unbalanced most to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 You could go with stiffer springs in the rear. That could help give you a little oversteer. I have yet to see stiffer springs that didn't lower a legacy. I know there are options for the outback. But I am however lowered on legacy springs and struts. So standard height stiffer springs are not really an option. It's already 3 inches lower than oem so I certainly don't wanna go any lower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviman Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Could you jam the outback springs into the legacy struts? Would the preload make them stiffer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Could you jam the outback springs into the legacy struts? Would the preload make them stiffer? that would raise the height by an inch in the rear (deal breaker lol) but yes it would be stiffer than legacy wagon springs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I have yet to see stiffer springs that didn't lower a legacy. I know there are options for the outback. But I am however lowered on legacy springs and struts. So standard height stiffer springs are not really an option. It's already 3 inches lower than oem so I certainly don't wanna go any lower Ill let you know this weekend. I am on legacy Bilstein HDs and Ill be putting King springs on in the rear. They are the KSRS-29 springs, according to a post from Australia It should raise my car .5 in the rear. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 less camber in the rear relative to the front will help with understeer. However, careful with wanting oversteer - that's the YT videos of STi's wrapped around objects show up. If you are neutral, you can add oversteer with the throttle which is much better condition. What you are trying to avoid is the lift throttle oversteer condition - that gets you the ambulance ride. I had a mind set of oversteer thinking that's what I wanted. I drifted a corner at the track and found it was actually slower than the neutral with throttle added oversteer. Granted this was on race tires, so throttle oversteer was at the limit (1.5g's). Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 less camber in the rear relative to the front will help with understeer. However, careful with wanting oversteer - that's the YT videos of STi's wrapped around objects show up. If you are neutral, you can add oversteer with the throttle which is much better condition. What you are trying to avoid is the lift throttle oversteer condition - that gets you the ambulance ride. I had a mind set of oversteer thinking that's what I wanted. I drifted a corner at the track and found it was actually slower than the neutral with throttle added oversteer. Granted this was on race tires, so throttle oversteer was at the limit (1.5g's). it has -1.2 camber in rear and -1.8 in front so i all ready tried that its fairly neutral under normal driving , however when you push it in a turn she plows in the front and just keeps going straight . id like neutral maybe a tad oversteer but predictable and consistent oversteer under hard accel. it is an auto trans so throtle induced oversteer is kinda hard to come by unless the turn is really sharp and you are in manual shift mode ps.i have crappy tires michelin energy saver (puchased used but mtching tread) so eventually i wiil get better ones, but that should just increase grip all around and not change the over all ballance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 it has -1.2 camber in rear and -1.8 in front so i all ready tried that its fairly neutral under normal driving , however when you push it in a turn she plows in the front and just keeps going straight . id like neutral maybe a tad oversteer but predictable and consistent oversteer under hard accel. it is an auto trans so throtle induced oversteer is kinda hard to come by unless the turn is really sharp and you are in manual shift mode ps.i have crappy tires michelin energy saver (puchased used but mtching tread) so eventually i wiil get better ones, but that should just increase grip all around and not change the over all ballance Actually, trying to tune a suspension for the characteristics you want on crap tires is hard. Get better tires and you won't need oversteer. In a stock LGT, oversteer is hard to come by and not warranted as you don't have extra power to catch it. A tail-happy AWD car means the bias is too far back. What you want is neutral with a bit of push at the limit, as you can lift a tad on throttle to tighten the turn. It sounds like you have that now. I'd stick with that and learn to drive the car better (high-performance driving instructor). Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtonstilts Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 For now there isn't much I can do without buying more parts. It's neutral enough to enjoy for the time being, I'm just so used to a tail happy supra that I miss the ability to slide like I always have.... As far as extra power though, it has plenty(full stage 2 way an X rt tune) and it's only getting faster in the months to come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 For now there isn't much I can do without buying more parts. It's neutral enough to enjoy for the time being, I'm just so used to a tail happy supra that I miss the ability to slide like I always have.... As far as extra power though, it has plenty(full stage 2 way an X rt tune) and it's only getting faster in the months to come That's a challenge. I did stage 2 this year and it's a lot of fun. But I am pretty sure I want more. Don't really know why. I have no need of it, but I do. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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