ShermanLGT Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Hey guys, i upgraded my fuel pump to the DW65C about a month ago. i was doing log runs for my tuner to be able to set the tune for the new pump and he noticed i was leaning out near the top range of the RPMs. he asked me if i double O-ring'ed the pump and i dont recall doing so. has anyone else done that move? where exactly do i install 2 o-rings and has anyone had any similar issues before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 I'm not positive but I don't think that is required with the DW65c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xplosivo1 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 That was how it initially went in, but I believe they changed to a larger o-ring and now only require the OEM spacer with a single o-ring. Mine is installed with the spacer and single o-ring and I'm not leaning out at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BarManBean Posted September 5, 2014 Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2014 Do you also have upgraded injectors and other parts (i.e. turbo)? Otherwise, there's really not need to "tune" for an upgraded pump AFAIK. Unless you were having problems with the stocker previously? "Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>> Not currently in stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 stock one took a crap on me last tuning session so i had to go with the new one. I dont recall having any spacers installed in there so im assuming i gotta double ring it. i dont have any other fuel related mods or at least any that im aware of. for the time being im stock VF40 and stock injectors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmaresmk Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 This is the best write up on it. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2303133 This is a picture of the spacer you take off the oem pump and install on the dw65. http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww47/Overland04/_MG_9304.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 so i added the O-ring and now have 2 issues. first one being im still losing pressure up top (11.14 AFR up to roughly 5600RPM and then gradually leaning until about 12.7 at 6300 RPM) . the second being that upon tightening the brace around the pump assembly to lock it in place, one of the 8 studs snapped in half, so im essentially running 7 bolts instead of 8 to fasten the metal ring around the pump and gasket. i am worried about leakage when the tank as full as right now im at about 1/3 tank. was told to either replace the tank, drill out the stud or seal with marine grade silicone (which will avoid being eaten away by the gasoline) any ideas about either issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xplosivo1 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Permatex sells an RTV used for gas tanks. I can't remember what it's called, but it's sold for motorcycle applications. I had to use it to seal up my tank because the new gasket I installed didn't seal properly. Edit: http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/specialty-gasket-maker/permatex-motoseal-1-ultimate-gasket-maker-grey-detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 so i added the O-ring and now have 2 issues. first one being im still losing pressure up top (11.14 AFR up to roughly 5600RPM and then gradually leaning until about 12.7 at 6300 RPM) . the second being that upon tightening the brace around the pump assembly to lock it in place, one of the 8 studs snapped in half, so im essentially running 7 bolts instead of 8 to fasten the metal ring around the pump and gasket. i am worried about leakage when the tank as full as right now im at about 1/3 tank. was told to either replace the tank, drill out the stud or seal with marine grade silicone (which will avoid being eaten away by the gasoline) any ideas about either issues? I'm looking at this exact situation w/ my 05 OBXT. The previous DW65c wasn't supplying enough fuel way up top during last week's tuning session, so the tuner/shop replaced the pump w/ a new one. Brought it home, filled up the tank, and gas was literally drip-drip-dripping onto my driveway. They re-seated the 8 bolt seal which stopped the big leaking, but when I refilled the tank, I smelled residual fuel oder. Pulled off the cover and saw that the seal is seeping very slightly in a few places around the perimeter, and one of the 8 bolts was broken off (not sure if it was broken before or during the recent DW65c replacement). I cleaned up the perimeter of the seal last night. It's dry today, but if I sniff around the area i can still smell fresh fuel. I suspect the seal is still 'leaking' enough to allow vapor to get into the cabin. Permatex sells an RTV used for gas tanks. I can't remember what it's called, but it's sold for motorcycle applications. I had to use it to seal up my tank because the new gasket I installed didn't seal properly. Edit: http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/specialty-gasket-maker/permatex-motoseal-1-ultimate-gasket-maker-grey-detail Did you remove the pump assy and coat the new seal w/ the RTV, substitute the seal for the RTV altogether, or did you just apply it around the perimeter w/ the seal already in place and bolted down? I'd rather not have to wait to run the tank down a bit and replace the seal w/ a new one that might also seep, but I want the 'fix' to be as permanent as possible. Looks like there's also a Blue RTV that could be used for this. Not sure which would be better suited to touch up the seal though. The gray is listed as being non-pliable, while the blue one is. http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-sealants/permatex-permashield-fuel-resistant-gasket-dressing-flange-sealant-detail Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 hmm first of all its weird that you'd have fumes seeping into the cabin because there is an air tight cover that goes on top of the whole deal over there, it has like a silicone strip that seals it and then screws in order to avoid fumes and literal spillage into the cabin. nonetheless im pretty concerned with the inability for the pump to cope with the demand for fuel, its a brand new pump and have seen it installed on anything from my car to built WRX's and none had any starvation issues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Yeah I noticed the cover has a pliable seal on its underside, but fuel smell still manages to get into the cabin. It's not omg strong, but it is noticeble. Nothing like what it was when the seal was originally reinstalled and was literally dribbling fuel onto the ground when the tank was full. I took a closer look at the cover and it seems that while there is that sealing material on the underside, it does not fit snug all the way around when the 4 screws are tightened down. I don't know if the pump seal/area is supposed to be completely hermetic, but the fuel smell did -not- exist prior to the pump being replaced so I know this is not the way it should be. I'm surprised you're leaning out like that up top w/ the new pump. When my orig DW65c was looking 'tired', AFR would creep up from low 11.x after 5100 rpm, mainly in 4th+. My tuner made fueling corrections up top which drove AFR rich in 3rd, but it would still lean out up top in 4th. My DW740 IDC were in the mid-60% range, so it wasn't the injectors. Once the new DW65c was installed, AFR returned to what it was intended to be up top (low 11.x i believe). I assume your IDC are OK up top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 im not sure what IDC stands for tbh haha, but yeah the AFR just leans out, the mechanic that works with the tuner said it could be the fuel pressure regulator, i havent had the chance to test it yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Injector Duty Cycle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 dammit i also have a feeling i may have put the gasket on backwards. correct me if im wrong please. i put it so that the side that has the groove sticking out and those little pimples is facing down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 pretty sure the little pimples should be facing up, they poke through matching holes in the black retainer ring on my car. it looks like they might have the alignment of that slightly off on my car, and the black ring looks like it's slightly uneven in a few places. once I burn off some of the fuel in the tank I might try getting it seated a little better. knowing my luck I'll cause another leak haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 hmm, because in my car it seems like its matching dips in the opening of the tank but then at the same time it doesnt match all of them at once either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 attached are the pics of what the assembly situation looks like. and i will log it up and see what the IDC says. what should it be for par by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xplosivo1 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Did you remove the pump assy and coat the new seal w/ the RTV? Yes this ^ The Moto seal stays pliable, it's made for motorcycles that are torn town far more frequently than any car. It's not pliable like a rubber silicone, but it's not hard like the ultra grey either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 attached are the pics of what the assembly situation looks like. and i will log it up and see what the IDC says. what should it be for par by the way? I might know more about the assy situation once I pull the retaining ring off myself later this week. I have a completely full tank right now, which will probably be down to 1/3 to 1/4 tank toward the end of the week. I'm tempted to buy a new seal anyway, -and- coat it with some of the Permatex Moto RTV. As for IDC, I'm not sure what it should be for a typical Stage 2 setup on stock injectors, but I would think you'd probably want to see IDC no higher than ~95% or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 You should not need a second o-ring for this install. What turbo and injectors are you using and what is your peak IDC? Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 stock turbo and as far as i know stock injectors, still didnt have the chance to log the peak IDC but am also pretty worried to do another pull with the car in all honesty. the mechanic that deals with pretty much all the subies locally and the one that works with the tuner (Mikey Botti, PhattBotti Tuning) said that its not in the books but it is a precautionary action to double o-ring it so for what its worth i did it. Serx7 please keep me updated regarding what you have done with the seal as i would like to move on and get that situated too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Yeah, you should not have any trouble holding AFR at as low as 10:1 with IDC well under 95%. Either you have a bad pump, a bad FPR or a leak somewhere. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serx7 Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 ShermanGT: I'm still at nearly a full tank, I'll have to wait til the fuel level drops a bit more before I do anything. After the last fill up (Fri afternoon), I sloshed the fuel around a good bit (twisties, stop & go w/ moderate acceleration/braking), then popped open the top cover and monitored the seal over the course of the ensuing several hours. The seal is no longer -visibly- seeping fuel, so it's likely that the seepage I saw before was from the shop having just re-seated the seal w/ > 3/4 tank of gas only an hour earlier. As you may recall, I too am now running only 7 of the 8 bolts like you, one of them must've gotten snapped off by the shop that did the pump replacement, or by the previous owner's shop. Although the seal is not visibly seeping, I can still smell fresh fuel vapor/odor emanating from the periphery of the seal. I checked this by blowing air into the area, then waiting a moment, then sticking my nose down into the area. I also sniffed around the seal w/ a long straw, and can smell fresh fuel vapor. The vapor leak occurs in several spots along the circumferance of the seal, so it doesn't seem to be happening just b/c I'm missing 1 of the fastening points. Upon closer inspection, it looks like one of the previous shops used pliers to slightly bend up a small section of the sheet metal that the top cover seals against. The top cover was also slightly bent, and these 2 things were causing the cover to not seal off the cabin completely. I believe I fixed that, but there is still a slight (but definitely better than before) fuel odor detectable w/ the top cover installed. I don't know if it's 'normal' for a small amt of fuel odor to emanate from the 8 bolt hole pump seal, but the fact that there was no fuel smell in the car at all prior to the pump replacement, leads me to believe something has changed for the worse. The seal itself appears to be a $10-11 part (#42025AG04A, I think). I also noticed that the black metal ring itself looks to be slightly 'wavy' as opposed to perfectly flat in a few places around the circumferance, so I'm considering replacing that too. It's a $34 part (#42057FG000, I think). The 7 remaining bolts/nuts are not currently overtightened, so I don't think this was caused by the shop that I'm currently working with. I reached out to the shop to see if there's a labor cost involved in installing a new seal, and if so, how much. If the cost is zero/small, I might just have them do the work. It looks pretty straightforward and I've done much more intensive work on my car/s before, but this is now my only car, so if something goes awry the shop would presumably be better equipped to recover than I would be in my driveway. Regardless of who replaces the seal, I'm probably going to also use some of that Permatex sealant that Xplosivo1 mentioned earlier in this thread so it (hopefully) doesn't have to be re-done again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 good lord i think i found out my problem..... damn IDC above 100%datalog14.csv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShermanLGT Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 ShermanGT: I'm still at nearly a full tank, I'll have to wait til the fuel level drops a bit more before I do anything. After the last fill up (Fri afternoon), I sloshed the fuel around a good bit (twisties, stop & go w/ moderate acceleration/braking), then popped open the top cover and monitored the seal over the course of the ensuing several hours. The seal is no longer -visibly- seeping fuel, so it's likely that the seepage I saw before was from the shop having just re-seated the seal w/ > 3/4 tank of gas only an hour earlier. As you may recall, I too am now running only 7 of the 8 bolts like you, one of them must've gotten snapped off by the shop that did the pump replacement, or by the previous owner's shop. Although the seal is not visibly seeping, I can still smell fresh fuel vapor/odor emanating from the periphery of the seal. I checked this by blowing air into the area, then waiting a moment, then sticking my nose down into the area. I also sniffed around the seal w/ a long straw, and can smell fresh fuel vapor. The vapor leak occurs in several spots along the circumferance of the seal, so it doesn't seem to be happening just b/c I'm missing 1 of the fastening points. Upon closer inspection, it looks like one of the previous shops used pliers to slightly bend up a small section of the sheet metal that the top cover seals against. The top cover was also slightly bent, and these 2 things were causing the cover to not seal off the cabin completely. I believe I fixed that, but there is still a slight (but definitely better than before) fuel odor detectable w/ the top cover installed. I don't know if it's 'normal' for a small amt of fuel odor to emanate from the 8 bolt hole pump seal, but the fact that there was no fuel smell in the car at all prior to the pump replacement, leads me to believe something has changed for the worse. The seal itself appears to be a $10-11 part (#42025AG04A, I think). I also noticed that the black metal ring itself looks to be slightly 'wavy' as opposed to perfectly flat in a few places around the circumferance, so I'm considering replacing that too. It's a $34 part (#42057FG000, I think). The 7 remaining bolts/nuts are not currently overtightened, so I don't think this was caused by the shop that I'm currently working with. I reached out to the shop to see if there's a labor cost involved in installing a new seal, and if so, how much. If the cost is zero/small, I might just have them do the work. It looks pretty straightforward and I've done much more intensive work on my car/s before, but this is now my only car, so if something goes awry the shop would presumably be better equipped to recover than I would be in my driveway. Regardless of who replaces the seal, I'm probably going to also use some of that Permatex sealant that Xplosivo1 mentioned earlier in this thread so it (hopefully) doesn't have to be re-done again. i went out and bought the permatex seal for fuel tanks, decided to go with the one that's supposed to be more pliable. i filled up a little today but didnt top it off, it looks like everything is sturdy around the fuel pump seal yet i didnt wanna risk it quite yet. i will perhaps go and finish fueling tomorrow now that i have the seal and can recover if needed. in the meantime, like i mentioned above, i believe i solved the leaning issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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