spb Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 On a rally course by the same driver. Not 0-60 or 1/4 mile. Any comparison will at least partially satisfy my curiosity. But why "not 0-60 or 1/4 mile"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eckseleven Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Any comparison will at least partially satisfy my curiosity. But why "not 0-60 or 1/4 mile"? Because that's not real world driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eckseleven Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 No turbo needed if you have a V6. My Maxima (6-speed manual) still has no trouble with hills at 80 even with 140k miles. Obviously you can throw more displacement at the problem. But we are talking about 2.5L 4 cylinder though, and the point is that MT or CVT, a N/A 2.5L 4 cyl is going to struggle at that elevation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spb Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Because that's not real world driving. i know you are answering for a different person, but by that token rally driving would not be real world driving either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brady Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Also, can we please define "hill"? What kind of grade are we talking? Makes a huge difference, especially trying to hold at 80 mph. (I'm dumber for engaging in this conversation in the first place) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Rally driving would show the true performance capabilities/limits of a car like the detractors desire. Then we would know if a manual has a significant advantage over a cvt for the performance afficiandos. There are people who take their cars to the track and want every tenth of a second. I would want a manual if I was racing for ease of repair and modification more than anything else. The cvt might be great for people who don't mod or track their cars. Thinking about it...I can understand why the performance guys aren't happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Further...if a manual was only fractionally faster than a cvt, there may some novice drivers who could drive the cvt faster. The cvt would be more forgiving to inexperienced drivers. Some people don't know how to get the most out of a manual, especially with a turbo that needs to be spooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spb Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 hmmrdwn, I see your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Peterson Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I know this thread has been quiet for a while. The main reason we have a Subaru at all and why I'm a member here is because Subaru offered a manual transmission with an optional engine in a 4-door sedan. But it looks like yet another manufacturer has abandoned people like us who still aren't willing to settle for an automatic and probably never will be. "Us", yes, that means my wife doesn't want a car with AT either. A clutch pedal and a gearshift lever that you need to move manually is just the way some cars work, and it happens to be the way we expect our cars to work. Between the two of us, there's over 90 years of licensed driving experience, and I think we've got this piece of it figured out. ehsnils, don't waste your time on trash like him honestly. Some people just can't let go of the past and move on. There are always going to be people like him who believe everything has to be done by hand. Those slow ass people are dying off anyways. Some of us don't want things done for us that we can do just fine for ourselves. "Slow-ass", you say? - it isn't even always about the performance; there just isn't any driving satisfaction to be had when some computer (and somebody else's programming) is doing so much of it for you. If you are lucky, you may actually come to realize this. If not, cars really are just another appliance in your life. An Evo is a purpose built performance car. I would not want a smooth computer controlled manual transmission. A smooth automatic transmission is a slow transmission (and engine with the output being reduce by the computer), same goes for a computer controller MT. I personally hate smooth auto transmissions. This is one of reason why todays car with the high HP outputs run so much slower 1/4 mile times than they should be. A automatic and CVT with torque converter can not replicate the vehicle balance that a MT can on a race track. For me that is not that important but those who race on track day this is very important. And automatics aren't necessarily going to work on the same shift schedule as a real live human. It doesn't matter if the computer is by some measures better when it's working at cross-purposes to the driver at other times, never mind that it's not at all good at anticipating downshift situations. Even for those of us who won't ever take our Legacys out on a road course, the involvement is still important. If it hadn't been, we wouldn't have bought the 2.5GT/6MT. ;D Say what you want. The Golf R DCT is faster than the manual. And I will tell you that that doesn't matter. I'd rather drive a 15 second conventional manual transmission car than a 12 second car with any kind of automatic. The jury is still out with respect to dual-sequential manuals, but I'm still leaning away from any kind of computer involvement in gear shifting. Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Plus a manual is good exercise for the left foot and right hand. Keeps people from texting while driving and eating. I think manuals should be mandatory. Plus Subaru makes such great manual transmissions that they are far superior to any new fangled cvt transmission. I miss the smell of a smoking clutch, grinding gears and whining throw out bearings. Let alone Subaru's rubbery tranny and long throw shifter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD123 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Maybe the opposite is true for the VW, but since this is a Subaru based board, for the 2015 WRX, the manual is faster than the CVT... the big difference, in practical terms, is that the CVT is going to be the same speed for anyone, but for the manual, it requires some skill to post the best numbers (and to avoid things like a burnt clutch or grinding gears, for that matter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=42220866#post42220866 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Peterson Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 ↑↑↑ It's early and I haven't had my first cup of coffee yet . . . so can you help me understand what a WRX dynotune has to do with not even having a transmission choice here? FWIW, if you don't like the way a particular transmission operates (or needs to be operated, for that matter), making the car it's in faster still doesn't fix the wrong-kind-of-transmission issue. You just move from an average state of suck to faster suckage. Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Judging by your comment Norm, you likely need a few more cups before you come back in here. Ask those questions of FHI/SoJ (try their engineering, marketing or sales departments, in any which order). Truth of the matter is across APAC, the FAxxDIT cars all come equipped with CVTs and CVTs only. Be it the 5th gen Legacy DIT, the new WRX S4, or all Levorg flavors. What I can tell you from driving the Lineartronic CVT (HT-CVT, etc.) is that its vastly better than the vanilla CVT found in the XV or mated to the updated 2.5i in the base Legacy. Its night and day when compared to Nissan CVTs. In part, this must be because of the engine/s mated to this transmission. Give it enough torque and as long as the Lineartronic can handle it - they shine. I was very surprised in how it compared to the 6MT in the WRX. Another great transmission, but sadly a dying breed. Its a hybrid-infested, engine sound through speakers, CVT world Norm. I've given up on fighting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Peterson Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm afraid that you're side-stepping my point. Neither making the engine more powerful nor increasing CVT torque capacity will ever change the way a CVT operates or make it any more acceptable, at least to my wife or me. The CVT advantages - I just might understand CVTs better than you currently think - simply aren't worth the trade-offs involved. Not even close. If I wanted my cars to work more like snowmobiles and boats, I'd have bought one that did, and I'd probably have those devices as seasonal interests rather than cars and making them go around corners. I might even be trying to change OP's mind instead of trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from. Speaking of OP . . . it was pretty obvious that he wasn't at all favorably impressed with this →CVT turn of events either, and I doubt he was looking for everybody else on the forum to jump in and try to convince him otherwise. This trend toward a "hybrid-infested, engine sound through speakers, CVT world" probably can't be reversed, but don't expect giving up to accomplish anything but allow it to continue at a faster rate . . . Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Agreed Norm. I'm actually NOT a fan of CVTs either. In fact I'd take a regular MT (regardless of # of gears) any day. For my daily driver I had to settle on a 5EAT and I'm not in love with it either, but it does what I need it to do and fits the roads and traffic patterns where its typically used. However, after huge let downs with all Nissan CVTs that grounded my opinion about them in-line with yours, and further let downs by Subaru itself with the XV 2.0i+CVT pairing, I was amazed with how good the HT-CVT is in comparison. Its not a 6MT, nor is it fooling anyone that is could be a proper MT replacement - but its a damn good compromise between a slushbox and a cog-box. I would love to see a Subaru with some type of dual-clutch setup, DSG/PDK/etc. but we both know it will never happen. The HT-CVT they have is a decent attempt for a daily driver, and likely torture for any auto-x, rallying, racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I would love to see a Subaru with some type of dual-clutch setup, DSG/PDK/etc. but we both know it will never happen. The HT-CVT they have is a decent attempt for a daily driver, and likely torture for any auto-x, rallying, racing. I agree with this, it's a great transmission for a daily driver. I haven't yet driven the HT-CVT, but I've driven all of Subaru's other CVTs, and was rather impressed, after being greatly disappointed with Nissan's implementation. Subaru did a much nicer job with their normal CVTs. I believe this HT-CVT is their equivalent of a DCT without having to design a whole new transmission. Maybe some day somebody will convert one to a real clutch instead of torque converter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I totally understand the love for a manual tranny in the racing community. It's just more direct, repairable and open to mods. A cvt however for the vast majority of street drivers, would perform as well if not better. A cvt has definite drawbacks though. There is no denying a small core group of customers are going to be dissatisfied. The cvt would be fantastic for many Subaru customers though. It might even get some that move to a manual tranny after trying the cvt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Peterson Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I totally understand the love for a manual tranny in the racing community. It's just more direct, repairable and open to mods. The "more direct" part of that absolutely applies to street driving as well. I'd say that having both motorcycles and "10-speed" bicycles in one's background might have something to do with appreciating that, except that it wouldn't really explain either my wife's preference for a MT or my almost 39 y/o daughter's recent purchase of a stick-shift Dodge Dart (following several years driving a Honda Pilot). But I'd put "open to mods" over with automatics. Unless you're an old-school stick-shift drag racer who slick-shifts the synchros yourself, there aren't any MT mods that truly compare to shift kits, reverse-pattern valve bodies, looser torque converters, or changes accomplished via tunes. All except the reverse-pattern valve bodies should be possible with a CVT. Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I would love to see a Subaru with some type of dual-clutch setup, DSG/PDK/etc. but we both know it will never happen. The HT-CVT they have is a decent attempt for a daily driver, and likely torture for any auto-x, rallying, racing. One reason for me selecting the CVT was to NOT have a stepped auto gearbox because I hate to feel every gear change that the box makes, and with these massive amount of gears that future stepped boxes will have it will be a pain. With a CVT I don't have to feel them - it's bad enough when the lock-up goes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Peterson Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 One reason for me selecting the CVT was to NOT have a stepped auto gearbox because I hate to feel every gear change that the box makes, and with these massive amount of gears that future stepped boxes will have it will be a pain. With a CVT I don't have to feel them - it's bad enough when the lock-up goes in. I sort of get what you're saying here even though I don't like the relationship between engine rpm and road speed to be so indefinite. I'm betting that you're reading the "feel" of a gearchange or lockup as being a discontinuity in the smoothness of your car's operation that was not the result of anything you requested. I'd expect future stepped automatics to incorporate things like softer friction element engagement and better torque management schemes to either eliminate this or at least minimize it below most peoples' ability to notice. Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Subaru's latest CVT in the WRX and new Legacy and Outback will act like a stepped automatic when accelerating with greater throttle tip in even in the normal CVT modes. That's the point when most people complain about CVT drone. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 And I find that stepping annoying as well. I would like to get rid of that behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 When I drove the Forester XT in S#, I was perfectly ok with simulated shifts. That being said, the XT has enough power to where you don't ever end up with droning, even in I and S modes. With lower power engines, I think most people would be more annoyed with droning than simulated shifts. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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