SeeeeeYa

Since that post I've obviously moved on My wife actually made it happen. My '11 OBP STi sedan is a far different car, despite its similarities, than the WRX. It turns heads, too, but with a nice difference. I came out of a restaurant this past weekend to find a late teens girl photographing it. It is a beautiful car, including its new wing. I enjoyed my LGT as well as loving it. It remains, to me, the zenith of Subaru styling art. Four years and half the price of a new one later in repairs (to things I broke) and mods and it had become... old, to me. Plus, I knew what I wanted to replace it. It took an '09 3.0R Ltd, the best Legacy Subaru may ever build, and an '11 WRX to confirm that want. The '11 STi fulfills it. I'm old enough to not worry what people think about me. It was my own conclusion that the car didn't "fit" me... but you're correct about it being obvious. Part of the "fit" incongruity, aside from appearances, was the LGTish-ness of it... I'd done that, and was ready for the good stuff. The STi starts off being superior in every way that matters to me. It also fits me perfectly appearance-wise. I still have the plate from my LGT... ZZZZZZZZ. I enjoyed it as the sleeper it was. Its picture is still on the wall in front of me. But my thoughts and my energy now go, happily, into my STi. Turning the pages. This might be a good time to say, once again, that the LGT/08+ WRX TMIC (BP Modded, of course ) is the best TMIC for a daily driver on the planet. I'm happy with my STi's large, hood-scoop-filling, TMIC... but it sucks as a DD. Luckily that isn't a problem often for me. This thing gets wicked hot, and is never cool to the touch after driving around town this summer... the opposite of the TMIC in my LGT or WRX, which were almost always cool no matter what.

When I got my 05 LGT in 05 it was the most exciting car I'd had in decades. But it was just too quiet. There were no exhaust options, and when they did come out most were beyond my budget at the time. No problem... Hog-zawst System to the rescue! I enjoyed making and installing a variety of versions of that until I ultimately upgraded everything, including the exhaust system, as I modded for power. One of those power mods was an EL header system, which eliminated the "boxer rumble" as an unfortunate side effect. So while I had an open 3" exhaust and lots more power, I would often miss the sound of my original Hog-zawsted OEM pipes, and the Subaru Boxer Rumble. Three Subarus later, the last two with SPT exhausts, I have both my beloved Subaru Boxer Rumble as well as an excellent low restriction exhaust in the factory SPT system. The SPT, however, costs over a thousand dollars, as opposed to pennies for the Hog-zawst. And in all honesty, I doubt there will ever be the kind of pure joy over a simple exhaust sound ever again as I felt that first time I Hog-zawsted my LGT. That's the way jaded works. Enjoy the washers as long as you can... you will always remember them.

On my 11 WRX I found AVCS tuning lowered knock sum significantly. It also removed the glaring disparity between the knock sum of cyl 4 vs cyl 2... where 4 would always be double or more of 2. So when I began tuning my 11 STI I naturally went to the AVCS and saw similar results. However, with the STI's dual AVCS things get tricky and with only ~500 mi on it there has been little time for map revisions. Monitoring knock sum showed the normal increments at low load, and nothing of concern given the very low numbers. Yesterday I made a very slight change that made a relatively huge change in the knock sum, lowering it to zero in cyl2 and only 1 in cyl 4 after a ride in ambient temps that approached 100F (120 to 140 IATs) during which I hit max boost several times. It was the lowest numbers I have seen in either car. Between a longer trip in the morning when I'd been monitoring performance and the afternoon ride I had altered the tune due to LTFT, not knock sum. When I got home and checked the knock sum I was absolutely amazed at the incredibly low number and reviewed what I'd changed. One was the MAF CAL for the AEM, but that wasn't it, of course, as the changes there were subtle. The AVCS was the same as the morning map. The only other change between maps was the change from 8 in the CL/OL transition delay (down from the stock 750 and an experimental value in the previous map) to 0. That was it. No more sitting still watching knock sum increment with tiny blips of the throttle. No more watching it increment merely backing up, or any other low-load maneuver. One knock count after a ride I purposefully explored boost in heat that could melt lead. YMMV, as we say, but it totally makes sense now. Not only does entirely removing the CL/OL delay remove the soft rubber bushing from the DBW throttle, it stops the ridiculous knocking during the waiting period as well.

:lol: Soda Pop, you have talent.

The day ANY boost level does ANYTHING to a BP Modded TMIC... isn't going to happen. Boost that high might blow the TMIC to IM coupler, but it will not affect the IC. People have looked at that "lowly" OEM IC and seen FAILURE for so long they no long actually see it. Look again... see the reinforcing ribs? That isn't just "plastic" there either. But come one. This isn't about that (how many times has it been said ). It is about boost levels 20 psi or less. Sure it can take more, but who is going to include the OEM TMIC, modded or not, with setups that can purr at 22-26 psi.

11 WRX. AEM CAI 93 maxed fuel 11.x afr 40F.

Thank you for your qualified support. It is very appreciated. However, since I am one of those LGT owners who has documented an aftermarket TMIC's effects I feel qualified to speak, not speculate. Yes, you get an extra psi of boost... woo hoo:rolleyes: ... from lowered internal resistance, at the expense of a) innate cooliing capacity, and b) much greater heatsoak (leaving the enormous differences in fitment, cost, etc. out for the moment). In the final analysis the biggest attraction when I got my aftermarket TMIC was, it was unbreakable. That was before the BP Mod. Now that a stock TMIC can be used with any boost, in the context for which it was designed, i.e., out on the road instead of sitting motionless strapped in place on some rollers, owners find the stock TMIC works perfectly in any real-world endeavor. That includes power levels no stg2 LGT can approach, ~300 whp. Until now that couldn't happen and an aftermarket IC HAD to be employed, thus years of "data" supporting a forced choice. Mark my words... in time it will come to be a known fact that the OEM TMIC, BP Mod reinforced, is superior to the common large, heavy, heat soaking anchors as THE choice for a Daily Driver, including occasional track time.

Actually, who cares what the AVO is rated at? It isn't relevant to this thread. It is good to remember some figures that come from the Real World. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1888473&highlight=uncle+phil I'll bet that not a single person on this thread, with or without an upgraded TMIC, will best the performance above. I'll also bet that not a single person who has modded or who is contemplating modding their OEM TMIC... the subject of this thread, BTW, and nothing more... will ever drive their car that hard. I know I won't. And if that isn't enough, consider what I mentioned earlier... one BP Mod user tracks his car, as late as last week. No problems whatsoever with IC performance. That is because it was on a track, not a dyno. Seems fruitless to beat a dead horse, but the continuing argument that the OEM IC isn't capable of handling track performance, OR is inadequate for 100% of anything asked of it in daily driving... is exactly that, a dead horse. The stock plastic-endtanked OEM TMIC is not only capable of those jobs without issue... ONCE MODDED ... it is a superior DD to any other TMIC solution. P e r i o d. ( << rabbit-in-distress call for all the coyotes here )

No argument there, and if there were more affordable V-mount front mounts I'd be tempted. While I might sound like I think OEM Suby is super stuff, that is all predicated on a Stg2 environment. Stg2 for me is around 300 whp, and simply enough. I couldn't get that with my LGT without a lot more than a bandaid on my intercooler. That is what I keep bringing focus here to bear on... stock to Stg2 setups and Daily Drivers. Not beyond. As far as I'm concerned, having done the stock location turbo swap, I would not go through upgrading again without going rotated. That starts another thread, about totally other things, including a big FMIC of some kind. But here, in this thread, it is all about the lower end of the scale... where the modded OEM IC is perfect.

In my case, with the LGT, I listened to that kind of advice from my tuner, and bought and installed a Perrin TMIC. Since I was going to install an AVO380 setup as well it made sense to me. I'd been running meth with the stock (JB Welded and wired together ) TMIC successfully on my VF40 and had hundreds of logs of it. The Perrin brought an extra PSI of boost, from lowered core loss, which with the VF40 meant more power. That made me happy. What did not make me happy was the seemingly interminable issues fitting the Perrin to my car. It made meth nozzles easier. As far as being a better intercooler... meh. On meth the OEM IC did fine as an intercooler, never showing an issue relating to it being saturated and ineffective at cooling. But one thing the Perrin DID bring that wasn't great, was more heatsoak in daily driving. How could it not. I'd not get the same TMIC again. Of course, there is no argument that a PW or similar TMIC wouldn't work BETTER. It would. But no matter how superior an intercooler it or one like it is, it is going to be an inferior daily driver IC. The factory built the best one for that. I still like the meth part.

You have it in a nutshell there... throw a good WI kit on the stock TMIC and forget it. I did on my LGT. I am also considering it on my WRX, seriously. As it is I have higher IDCs at Stg2 than I'd like, even with boost constrained and AFRs adjusted to 11.0. That means a pump and injectors. But with meth I could forget octane and heat issues, make a bunch more power, and in the process reduce my IDCs. Incidentally, one member who has BP modded his OEM IC just finished half a hundred laps at a CA racetrack... all perfectly handled by his BulletProof OEM TMIC. I mention this as case in point about the dyno vs real world performance of intercoolers. Big differences.

That is a perfect example of the mod's use, for those who, in fact, have a better TMIC or a FMIC in their future. Saving for those is one thing, but even if you have the cash sometimes the TMIC you want isn't immediately available or the complete FMIC kit along with all that that installation entails is a little far away in time. If your OEM TMIC fails you don't have any choice but to deal with it today. However, the presumption that everyone either wants or needs a replacement for the OEM TMIC, once it is modded, is incorrect. Many of us, even if track work is involved, find the bulletproofed OEM TMIC to be perfectly adequate. I know I do. And I know others who do as well. That said, it likely lurks in everyone's dreams who owns one of these cars to look under the hood and see the beauty of an STI-sized TMIC. I know I do. But everything in its own time. I can wait now without worry mine will STB. FWIW, and not to cast asparagus on anyone's decision who has one... but you couldn't pay ME to have an FMIC on this car.

Gentlemen, We all know there are differences between websites. Here is one website's response to the fundamentals here in this thread, and my "open" reply: I will not post my response. Cee Lo Greene puts it into fewer words. There must be a moral here somewhere. "Help at your own risk" might be one.

This is only a suggestion, an idea to explore, from some recent observations. AVCS can cause this... that is, AVCS tuning absolutely affects knock sum just like you describe. Maybe, if this is a totally new and different running condition with your car, something in the AVCS is different now... like an improperly working device or a change in software settings that occurred without your knowing. Pulling your tune and inspecting it is an easy step. Logging your AVCS for proper behavior is another. As reference, minor adjustments to my own AVCS reduced knock sum behavior, exactly like you observe above, to very low numbers that incremented logically, and significantly improved low rpm operation. YMMV, of course.

You have some skills there! Excellent. You can see why I picked the path I did. There is wiggle room some places, some not. My priority was securing the IC, and use by the widest variety of user skills. You have those Mad Skillz . If you think the lock washers I spec are redundant, you should have seen the first one I put on my car , talk about overkill. Impressive work. The best part is... you now have a BulletProof TMIC, and can tune with confidence.

Thanks guys, but I knew from the beginning someone would eventually want to pirate it. However, I can't justify keeping the information private for selfish reasons, and decided to provide the data if requested so that those who want can make their own. Having already investigated the "cost effective shipping to Canada" issue for another member, however, the difference between shipping my kit to anywhere in the US or to Canada (at least the address I used) was ... one US dollar. Not an issue. The plans, as well as kit and other information are available... PM me.

I was going to use this quote as an example next time I mention the BulletProof-TMIC Mod (spare IC to mod on sale soon?? )... ... but decided not to. While it may satisfy some as unpretentious effective communications and stand as an example for me to follow... I pass. Besides, I might need some advice from that poster some day.

First post: Seems pretty direct to me. This is expanded on some, but it isn't complicated to begin with. Apply BP Mod fix, end IC worry. But let's get serious. A friend once said, (edited for TV) "Don't ever eat crap, you never know when you might get to like the taste of it." Seems like a few here never had a friend give them that advice... Can you imagine what one of these Subarus would look like if it were designed by the average poster in this forum??? A big honkin IPR TMIC, the Turbo-of-the-Day, giant straight thru catless exhaust, two or three oil catch cans and separators, intakes fabbed from sewer pipe, a set of forged piston castanets for the knock sensor, at least fifteen gauges with little books on strings to figure out what they mean, no bushings at all... just metal inserts for that perfect transfer of power, a good strong clutch and a tranny and diff swap... Anyone care to guess the reliability of the composite? Think Subaru would want to copy it? Would sales go through the roof if the collective intellectual might of those who argue here that Subaru's engineering sucks and needs replacing with "superior aftermarket" pieces were followed?? How can anyone trust people who never mention a winch for their four wheeler. Silly boys.

Someone gets it. rao's right, some of you guys are way too serious.

No, but if you were a competitive runner you might. But humor from the people who stop by and want to comment in a thread totally irrelevant to them, or the subject, in order to appear cute are OK, too. Keeps things ... funny. And it allows a continued iteration of fact in the face of years of sophistic manipulation of reality.

The bar and plate intercooler design, in its entirety not just the endtanks, make them heavy... although the endtanks ARE a part of the extra mass. With all due respect, an intercooler isn't measured by its ability to absorb heat, it's measured by how efficient it is in reducing the temperature of the input versus its output through air to air transfer. Those who think of an IC as some big reservoir into which heat is stored, are not wholly incorrect. But it is that aspect that is the deficit, not the attribute. Because it is a big reservoir of trapped heat, when it heatsoaks, as it must, it takes that much longer reintroducing that heat into the air flowing through it. Without airflow to whisk the heat away, it remains in the IC. An intercoolers performance at 100+mph is not relevant here. And in daily driving, there is no better intercooler than the stock one... for multiple reasons. The stock plastic endtanked intercooler is a superior daily driving intercooler. Period. There is no argument to the contrary. The fact that the stock intercooler is the lightest possible intercooler is relevant to me, especially considering it provides my car with the capacity to manifest the power it does... which is significantly above any LGT's stock capacity. Even among other WRXs, however, it has proven... time and again as I posted in the very first post on this subject... to be adequate. It just has a tendency to be unreliable physically. Comments relative to an upgrade "path" belong in an arena where performance in excess of stg2 is being discussed. This thread, and the BP Mod in general is about daily drivers who are happy with 300 whp or less.

Hmmmm. A significantly lighter, in addition to better designed, intercooler is a joke? Searching delivered no specifics, but enough data for a comparison. The shipping weight for a stock LGT TMIC is seven pounds. The shipping weight for a Perrin TMIC is twenty five pounds. As one who considers weight a factor in my car's performance, that kind of disparity, regardless how the specifics shake out, stands out as significant. I resent my spare and go without it sometimes, I purposefully keep only a small amount of windshield wiper fluid, I remove all unnecessary weight in the interior and trunk. A lighter battery will replace this stocker shortly. AND I have direct experience with both intercoolers. Yes, the comparison was intended. Yes, I consider the weight disparity worth mention. No, I was not joking. If autocrossing didn't teach me anything, if years of intent responsibility for each and every pound, and where that pound was, when I was racing didn't teach me anything... maybe I would find a significantly lighter weight at the highest point of my engine funny, too. But I doubt it.

Oops! C&P failure. Fixed.

From a NASIOC thread.

I shouldn't have mentioned my shameful act. I'd love to be a purist, but sometimes I tinker, just to see. The multiple layers of HD Reynold's Wrap with the long continuous overlaying spiral of HD HVAC adhesive backed tape .... is working well. I knew it would because I've been doing that for years. But I didn't originate it, I found an old thread once where a guy did that to his headers, etc. with success... and I thought I'd use it and see what happened. Nothing happened. It just works well enough for me. But next time I might use some DEI stuff... for the smell factor if nothing else. We'll see, it's easily removed. I'll check out DEI for an upgrade. Maybe. If I didn't know better I'd swear I can still smell that tape glue burning, even here at the computer. I may never forget it.