imblaze89 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Don't sell drugs across stateline in legacy... Fighting like hell to get her back.. In the meantime my wrx is smashed up with 5k damage on it. Not really relevant to a turbo upgrade, just thought I would share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Don't sell drugs across stateline in legacy... Fighting like hell to get her back.. In the meantime my wrx is smashed up with 5k damage on it. Not really relevant to a turbo upgrade, just thought I would share You lost your car in the commission of a felony. Chances of getting your car back before you head to Federal PMITA Prison are slim, like your asshole is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxman Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 No sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 8, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 8, 2014 Don't sell drugs across stateline in legacy... Fixt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Fixt. My guess is he was probably just running some weed. Once the laws finally catch up to the times, like we're doing over here, whatever consequences he faces, or has faced, will likely be stricken as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxman Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 That's still going to take a bit of time as the Feds would make the same bust here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 8, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yep, even in states where pot is legal, sales still have to go thorugh licensed dispensaries. Moonshine running and sale of "loosies" are illegal too, even though alcohol and cigarettes are legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 How so? - For starters... you are comparing the turbos "at the same boost", but not taking into account that the boost level will be 13-15psi. A 16g is not yet in its "sweet spot" at 14psi, while a VF40/46 and a 52 are. You give a 22chp jump for a VF-52 when it is only approx 15chp. My original statement was made referencing a completely stock car where only the turbo is changed. Is this true even with "stage 1" tunes tailored to the turbo? - If it is a completely stock car otherwise, yes. You are limited by the intake, intercooler and the fueling if nothing else. A bigger turbo choked down wont make any more usable power and power delivery will be less linear as well. Totally agree with this. When you consider the higher cost of the turbo itself, the cost of the oil line (made by IP&T, of course ) required for the BNR warranty, and the cost of the required tune and tuning equipment, it doesn't make financial sense to go with a non-OEM turbo unless you were looking for a power boost and prepared to pay for (or already had) a couple of supporting mods, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 9, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 9, 2014 For starters... you are comparing the turbos "at the same boost", but not taking into account that the boost level will be 13-15psi. A 16g is not yet in its "sweet spot" at 14psi, while a VF40/46 and a 52 are. You give a 22chp jump for a VF-52 when it is only approx 15chp. My original statement was made referencing a completely stock car where only the turbo is changed. Your argument about the efficiency range of the 16G is reasonable, but I was always under the impression that the VF52 and the Evo 16G were very similar turbos in terms of efficiency ranges and power outputs. After all, the VF52 has the same CHRA as the VF39. Are the VF39 and the Evo 16G really that different? As for the power difference between the VF40/VF46 and the VF52, you have to compare apples to apples. The SAE net power measurement standards changed around 2006 or 2007, meaning that the "250 hp" the VF40 made is actually more or less the same as the "243 hp" the VF46 made. Since the VF52 makes 265 hp using the same SAE standards as the VF46, the difference is 22 chp, not 15 chp. If it is a completely stock car otherwise, yes. You are limited by the intake, intercooler and the fueling if nothing else. A bigger turbo choked down wont make any more usable power and power delivery will be less linear as well. Intake and fueling should not be an issue -- 16G can be run at 20psi max boost with OEM fueling, you just have to taper a little, and the stock intake is supposedly not a limiting factor until around 350whp. The TMIC may be an issue, and I'm sure it was one of the limiting factors on my Spec.B, but I find it hard to believe that at ~16psi, it's sapping that much power. My impression is that for Stage 1, the TBE is the biggest restriction -- but either way, a Stage 1 tune on a VF52 WRX is more like a Stage 2 tune on a VF40/VF46 LGT, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 VF39 hits peak boost faster than a 16g. 16g hold up top better. Similar, but not the same. VF52 hits peak boost faster than either of them. I am "playing" with housings now as we have been testing the new KillerB Spoolinator. I recently learned how to use a Garret CHRA, a custom modified Garrett compressor housing (ATP) and a Tial hotside to make a GTX3067r hit 20psi by 2800rpm on an EJ25 (in the stock location) and a GTX3576r hit 20psi by 3200rpm on an EJ25 (in the stock location). Blown away by how much the housing changes effect the overall turbo performance. My 08 5EAT LGT makes less power stock than my 05 5EAT LGT made. Factory freak? I dont know. On my dyno the avg difference between a stock 05-09 LGT (5MT) and a 09-14 WRX is 10whp. Add another 10 for a 08+ STi. Now the interweb says an LGT stock intake is good to 350whp??? Wow, it gained 50whp from the old intereweb gospel. I have seen intakes make a decent impact above 265whp on my dyno (Mustang). I would not run a customers car at 20psi with a 16g on stock fueling. But I have seen it done. Not a fan. We also do not tune above 16-17psi on a stock 05-09LGT/09-14 WRX TMIC. The downpipe is the major restriction on 05-09 LGT and 09-14 WRX. A downpipe and a tune is the best "bang for the buck" in the power dept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 10, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 10, 2014 Only 20whp difference between a stock LGT and a stock STI? Really? Thanks, as usual, for your insight. Always good to have information from someone who has worked on hundreds of turbo Subarus, rather than the 3 or 4 I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Yes. Avg is 20. Some make 25. 5EAT LGT's tend to be in the 185whp range (stock). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 10, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 10, 2014 Yes. Avg is 20. Some make 25. 5EAT LGT's tend to be in the 185whp range (stock). What's the explanation for the larger spread in CHP numbers on cars wth similar drivetrains, then? Was Subaru underrating the LGT and/or 09-14 WRX? Is there more drivetrain loss from the DCCD? Any dynos on the 2015 WRX yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 (edited) I would not run a customers car at 20psi with a 16g on stock fueling. But I have seen it done. Not a fan. We also do not tune above 16-17psi on a stock 05-09LGT/09-14 WRX TMIC. When you say not on stock fueling does that mean you would need to get injectors + pump? or is it something like, just a pump would be enough? For the TMIC is it due to safety reasons (blowing up the stock TMIC) or does the TMIC just not have whats needed to support higher PSI? and probably the stupidest question of all: is 20 psi across turbos the same or does a larger turbo pushing 20 psi mean more HP? I would assume that it meas more just due to more actual air is flowing into the engine with a larger turbo. Edited December 11, 2014 by Rhitter My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 11, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 11, 2014 For the TMIC is it due to safety reasons (blowing up the stock TMIC) or does the TMIC just not have whats needed to support higher PSI? Not sure of m sprank's reasons for saying that, but the TMIC definitely limits power above Stage 2 levels. and probably the stupidest question of all: is 20 psi across turbos the same or does a larger turbo pushing 20 psi mean more HP? I would assume that it meas more just due to more actual air is flowing into the engine with a larger turbo. Depends on the efficiency range of the turbo. 20psi on a VF40 is pretty pointless. 20psi on a Garrett T25 is downright impossible. 20psi on an HTA68 is below its efficiency range AFAIK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 What's the explanation for the larger spread in CHP numbers on cars wth similar drivetrains, then? Was Subaru underrating the LGT and/or 09-14 WRX? Is there more drivetrain loss from the DCCD? Any dynos on the 2015 WRX yet? I have measured the differences in "drive trains" of many, many cars on the Mustang. But, tire/wheel size, air pressure and more make a difference too. So, its not totally scientific. But... If I readjust the dyno for each individual cars drive train I usually gain 4-6whp. I attribute some of it to the mechanics of the different set ups and some to the OEM ratings not being "perfect". Yes, we have already extensively tested (and tuned) the 2015 WRX. Tom (owner of Kartboy) was nice enough to give up his as a guinea pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 When you say not on stock fueling does that mean you would need to get injectors + pump? or is it something like, just a pump would be enough? - A pump alone raises IDC 1-2%. Injectors and a pump. For the TMIC is it due to safety reasons (blowing up the stock TMIC) or does the TMIC just not have whats needed to support higher PSI? - The end tanks can come apart at as little as 16psi so this is a concern. The TMIC heat soaks very quickly and this is a concern. The TMIC was not designed or intended for higher boost pressures. If we can not make repeatable power (meaning back to back to back pulls) then its not "safe" and the pulled timing due to heat soak is not worth it. Bill tends to run lower boost than other tuners (but makes more overall power) and spends lots of time on the cams (and other tricks up his sleeve) to make the most consistent, safe power possible. and probably the stupidest question of all: is 20 psi across turbos the same or does a larger turbo pushing 20 psi mean more HP? I would assume that it meas more just due to more actual air is flowing into the engine with a larger turbo. - A gernarl answer to a general question... If the turbo is larger than at the same PSI it should moving more volume of air. More volume of air requires more fuel. An engine is a air pump. If you breathe in more and push out more, more power is the expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 11, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 11, 2014 Yes, we have already extensively tested (and tuned) the 2015 WRX. Tom (owner of Kartboy) was nice enough to give up his as a guinea pig. Well? Spill the beans! I have a 2015 WRX coming in near the end of the month. The end tanks can come apart at as little as 16psi so this is a concern. The TMIC heat soaks very quickly and this is a concern.I find it hard to believe that a stock TMIC heatsoaks more than a Perrin or even an AVO, given the fact that the plastic end tanks cannot act as a heatsink to move the heat from the turbo towards the core... As for end tank separation, this is easily and cheaply fixed by using the BP mod. Not nearly as good of a solution as, say, a PW TMIC or the new Grimmspeed TMIC, but far cheaper than an aftermarket TMIC, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 There is power to be had in the 2015 WRX. It takes a lot of work to get them tuned well on ACN91. As with all new cars the more time everyone has to work with them the better the results will be. Believe it. We dont push AVO or Perrin or PW or Grimmspeed (extensively tested on the STi) that far. On the dyno we dont see much (if any) difference between the AVO, Perrin and PW. As for the GS, well on an STi it works no better than the stock TMIC in our testing. Bill has yet to find a TMIC that he feels works better than the OEM STi TMIC. At my shop, if you want to make big power and you want it consistent... its a FMIC. ETS is the best we have found so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 11, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 11, 2014 There is power to be had in the 2015 WRX. It takes a lot of work to get them tuned well on ACN91. As with all new cars the more time everyone has to work with them the better the results will be. What kind of numbers can Bill get with a Stage 1 tune (no parts, just tune)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Mike - what is this ETS FMIC you speak of? 4th Gen LGT fitment? - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 NM - found it. http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/ETS-2005-2009-Subaru-Legacy-GT-Front-Mount-Intercooler-Kit.html Your Spec B Mike? - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted December 11, 2014 I Donated Share Posted December 11, 2014 That is a nice looking FMIC. With that said, in order for me to go FMIC, I'd need to be able to keep my bumper beam. I was not a fan of most of the other stuff about the one LGT FMIC that let you do that (RacerX). Additionally, I won't be putting an FMIC on my WRX for at least 50k, possibly longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 (edited) The ETS pix are not my car. The ETS takes out the bumper beam. But the AVO is stall available and that keeps the bumper beam. I keep an AVO and an ETS on display at the shop to show the differences between the two. I gave away an AVO at the T4T Drive last weekend. For the 15WRX "Stage1" estimate 10whp/40wtq gain. Power delivery is FAR more linear with the "buck and heave" completely gone. Car will pull all the way to red line. Around town, drive ability is far smoother as well. Late edit... I forgot, you gain a few MPG too. DI is amazing. Edited December 12, 2014 by m sprank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Imagine the 2014 Forester and 5th Gen LGT would have similar linear "pull-all-the-way-to-redline" due to the turbo placement. Wonder what else they've done to the 2.0T in the WRX versus the FXT? - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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