Tr00b Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 I wasn't intending on removing the back timing covers originally. Looking like thats going to happen anyway, the belt is junk. I don't have a force gauge, good to know thanks for that answer, wasted alot of time googling it and the Haynes manual was useless. The motor is in time, as far as I can tell. NOTE... I didn't get it perfect for the shots but with a little more care, it all lines up. What is the gizmo/sensor with the red plastic? Cam mark... http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012091.jpg Drivers side http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012089.jpg Passenger side. I didn't see an OBVIOUS specific mark on the head but I did see a tiny tic mark cast into the head. I assume that this is also in time. The pic, at the funky angle reveals a cut/crack in the belt, the biggest of 6 small random cuts on the belt. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012092.jpg Another cut on the belt. Note, the belt guide thats supposed to go over the cam sprocket is gone. Is that a critical piece? Should I reinstall one? http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012093.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 Kina an unhelpful pic of the one piece tensioner. There seemed to be oil leaking in the vicinity... If its driven by oil pressure, that could be bad... I'm thinking its replacement time? I know the blue bearing seals are usually the sign of a cheap parts store idler pulley... Unless I am mistaken and that is OEM. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012094.jpg http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012100.jpg This is why I think the t-belt originally broke or slipped on this car before I owned it hence the rebuilt heads. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012097.jpg Not 100% sure what direction the belt rotates, but the arrows are pointing counter clockwise rotation. I think they installed the belt backwards, which probably doesn't matter... http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/Fall2012099.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 first, i do not remember the specifics of your car / engine, or what issues you are having, but from the pics: it is 98+ engine, interference. if that belt fails it will probably bend valves. if the tensioner fails you will likely have bent valves. when in doubt, replace everything. the red-ish device it the crank sensor. if you are having idleing / running issues i would replace it, used is a pretty safe bet sine they do not fail often. if the replacement helps then you can decide if you want to buy new. on the back side of the driver side timing belt cover, you will see another VERY SIMILAR device. that is the crank sensor. some folks run with out timing covers. i re-installed mine, even the piece with a hole in it. i used zip ties where the bolt ears broke off on the cam covers. and i just did not install the bolts where the tabs busted on the center cover. i figured as long as the cover is not rubbing on the belt, some was better than none, cover-wise. what else?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share Posted December 7, 2012 I'd like an opinion on if I should just put it back together and sell it/trade it I paid $2600 for 2.2 1999 wagon with 150k miles... Lots of problems but it runs and drives (well, before the dis-assembly) and has good tires. I think I got screwed especially with the motor knock. I am really frustrated with it and I think alot of this retarded nit-pickery is me trying to find a reason to get rid of the car... I have lost motivation to fix it because this is the last in a line of jeez like 7 lemon vehicles and I am tired of it and also pretty broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Wow I was frustrated that day... I'm doing this real slow so I do it right. Doing some reading a watching, maybe this will help others. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/timing-belt-tensioner-oil-leaks-77384.html Reading about the tensioner: tensioner is def junk. The hyd fluid is leaking out. Belt: Junk. Cuts etc. Walking: can be a combination of a failing tensioner and... Perhaps...bad idlers. I'll need to remove the belt to actually spin the idlers though. So now I'm ready to pull the trigger on a timing belt kit, but not until I know if the idlers are good too... Monkeyposeur, do these cheap timing kits include water pumps or not? Is it essential to have Subaru OEM crank/cam seals? Is it difficult to remove a cam sprocket without putting the engine out of time to check the cam seal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Not 100% sure what direction the belt rotates, but the arrows are pointing counter clockwise rotation. I think they installed the belt backwards, which probably doesn't matter... it does matter, i cant recall which direction mine spun when i did the TB and stuff, but i do recall that placing the belt backwards put the passenger side cam off like 3 teeth.the marks werent equidistant from the center point. but that was a 95, not sure if its the same on a 98 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 So now I'm ready to pull the trigger on a timing belt kit, but not until I know if the idlers are good too... Monkeyposeur, do these cheap timing kits include water pumps or not? Is it essential to have Subaru OEM crank/cam seals? Is it difficult to remove a cam sprocket without putting the engine out of time to check the cam seal? most kits i saw had the idlers included. change them out regardless, unless yo can prove they are essentially new parts. i have a GRB water pump for a 95, not sure if it will fit but id likely sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 the crank shaft rotates in the clock wise direction as you look at it from the front of the car. look for timing belt kits on ebay from ''theimportexperts'' they have quality parts for a fair price. not the cheapest on ebay, but i do not remember anyone complaining about the parts failing prematurely. i like the kits from ''theimportexperts'' on ebay. good quality parts for a fair price. $125 for everything including the water pump. add another $35 for seals from the dealer and you r engine will be like new. good for 60k - 100k miles. absolutely replace the idlers & belt. water pump is recommended. (BTW all water pumps are the same 90 - 99.) the tensioner is a one piece item , idler anf tensioner all in one and they charge a premium for it compared to the other parts. but you should replace it. if any one of these parts fails, you will be buying valves or replacing the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 I used a long piece of wire to find TDC and the actual timing marks (the arrow on the crank pointing up, the arrows on the spokes on the cam sprockets pointing up). Passenger side cam is off 3-5 teeth. I counted 48 but its hard to see the timing arrow which is on the sprocket itself. The Haynes manual said passenger side should have 44 teeth. Score 1 win for twisty, good call on that! http://www.411nola.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/you-win.gif I didn't pull the belt yet but I'm certain now that I know the timing is offthat stuffs messed up so I'm going full retard and ordering the parts. I just can't believe how well it ran with the timing off that much. There is so much inconsistency as to what each timing belt kit includes. Even the OEM kit from Subarupartsforyou.com kit for $469 still doesn't include all the idlers. The Dayco ones include all of them water pumps and seals, but they have the green plastic idler pulleys which said to be prone to fail. The import experts kits don't include water pumps, cam and crank seals... I know alot of the parts interchange, but I DO NOT understand how the 2.2 and 2.5 timing belt kits can interchange. Lots of sellers on Ebay have the DOHC and SOHC belt kits working for both. http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=2744188&cc=1357354 I ordered the SKF kit on Rock Auto for $290. Has pump, all idlers, cam seal, crank seal, waterpump and seal, timing cover seal and timing belt. I don't know the origin of the parts in the kit but so far the price is right on it for what it includes compared to Importexperts. I also ordered timing belt cover and bolts from Subarupartsforyou.com. What is this thingy and do I need it? Mine does not exist. http://subarupartsforyou.com/cp_partdetail.php?partid=4883 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 dohc and sohc kits are not EXACTLY the same. the belts are different, everything else will swap. (one exception, the tensioners changed in 98, pre-98 will not swap with 98+ without work.) the ''sling'' part is a rubber gasket that seals the front timing cover to the block / rear timing cover. i never replace / use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 the ''sling'' part is a rubber gasket that seals the front timing cover to the block / rear timing cover. i never replace / use them. mine is all crusty and broke on the right side, i didnt have time to wait a couple days for dealer to open so i just went with it. im sure there is a good reason for it to be there, but i doubt ill ever have this thing in deep enough off road for it to actually matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 WOW... The SKF timing belt kit is for 1997 and below only, it has the wrong tensioner. So i have the wrong kit at my house and the f*ckers will only refund it once they have it returned, so now I have to wait until payday next week or for the refund to come through to order something else. AND I have to drive 30 miles to the nearest FedEx store to drop it off because it won't fit in the drop boxes to do the return. A tensioner at the auto parts store is almost $200... I'd have saved money buying the OEM kit for 469 at Subarupartsforyou for you that point... This is a godd*mn joke... Now I have to wait another whole week before the car gets done. I could just puke I'm so mad right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 if you have not shipped it back yet, maybe there is another solution. use the new parts that will work and the old tensioner. re-assemble the car and drive it for a week. return the tensioner ans swap it for the new one and then install it later. (asap) or do not bother returning the tensioner, just get the right one off ebay, as soon as you can you can afford it. or, and ths may be the easiest and cheapest, go to a local parts yard and get the mounting bracket for the old style tensioner. the mounting bracket will make it so you can use the old style tensioner on your engine. the blocks are all the same, but each tensioner has its own bracket. any yards near by??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Yes there are several yards near hear. Since its underneath the timing cover, I am not sure how successful I am going to be at the regular yards, I'm sure they would.... I could bring a sawzall to cut the cover and a box knife to cut the belts to the U-pull it yard... Would probably be unpopular with the poor slob that wants to buy the motor... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-2-2-EJ22-Timing-Belt-Pulley-Roller-Mount-Bracket-Tensioner-/140820937553 Is that what I'm looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Those are easy to pull. Are you looking for the old style? I have one if you want it. -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 You can recompress the old style tensioner and reuse it although many people will advise against it. Subaru techs reuse them if they are not weeping. I like to buy a new one just to be safe. But they are $90-115. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 that looks like it. tell the yard you stripped the threads in the mounting bracket and need a replacement. hey, it happens. the bracket mounts onto the block and the idler, in the pic, and the tensioner mount on the bracket. yeah, i would cut the middle timing cover. and probably the belt. then just a few bolts to remove the tensioner and then the bracket. good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Buying the bracket from Subikid! Its pouring rain outside and I can use the time to work on the car in the dry and warm... And get ready to drop in the tensioner, confirm the timing, put the cover on, fill the coolant, and see how it runs with the motor in time. I am hoping the knock goes away and the oil consumption goes away... Thanks for the suggestion, Johnegg, it made my night! Also, I've heard the old style mechanical units are MUCH more reliable than the hydraulic tensioners so its a win win. Monkey, mine is leaking I'm very sure. I am assuming its OEM with 150k and its more than past its useful life. Otherwise, I would be all for recompressing and using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 http://www.subaruvanagon.com/tom/Timing%20Belt.htm I got more and more confused the more I read the manual and the more I spun the timing belt on the cogs. So I found that website. Very helpful for figuring out the timing, still off teeth on passenger side though. Radiator hoses are junk and the clamps on them are too... little hose off of thermostat housing is also junk. Old style tensioner bracket on its way... Didn't get much done this weekend family issues and other breakdowns... Woo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 Add $60 to the bill for new rad hoses, clamps, antifreeze, radiator cap. I've spent around $460 so far. The reason I was confused, the timing belt which the previous owners used had the wrong spacing on the marks, and I removed it last night, trying to use the timing marks on the old belt Its like 45 and 48 teeth off the center. The new belt I have has the proper spacing on the marks. I forgot to loosen the crank pulley bolt which I had been using to turn the motor to hit the marks. Now I have to put the old belt back on to loosen the crank pulley bolt. I don't have the spanner wrench to hold it steady so its all I've got. So I wasted 2 hours trying to re-time the engine to remove one bolt, and still didn't succeed because I got tired. More questions: The idler to the left of the crank pulley. It seems to be the most heavy duty of all the idlers. It rolls ok, pretty quiet, but it does have a noticeable amount of play up and down. This idler is not included in any timing belt kit I could find, even OEM. Why is that... Does it generally never go bad? Should I replace it? The oil pump housing has a hex key plug in it and a big spring. I assume this is some sort of relief valve or something. This thing was finger tight! I have no idea why it didn't leak. Should this be torqued down? What is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 The idler to the left of the crank pulley. driver side or passenger side? is it the tensioner idler? the toothed idler or one of the smooth idlers?? none should have any slop in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 driver side or passenger side? is it the tensioner idler? the toothed idler or one of the smooth idlers?? none should have any slop in them. All of them should come in the timing belt kit also -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The oil pump housing has a hex key plug in it and a big spring. I assume this is some sort of relief valve or something. This thing was finger tight! I have no idea why it didn't leak. Should this be torqued down? What is it? Wow, that's kind of scary! Are you planning on removing the oil pump and resealing it? I would if I were you. And while it is off check the screws for looseness. I have removed an oil pump and one of the pump cover screws was almost completely backed out. Here are the torque specs. BTW, the bolts that hold the pump to the shortblock are torqued to 4.7 ft.lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr00b Posted December 19, 2012 Author Share Posted December 19, 2012 A handle of Jack says this car is boobytrapped. Johnegg, its the one to the left of the crank pulley, so its opposite the tensioner idler. Subikid: http://subarupartsforyou.com/cp_partdetail.php?partid=21384 they don't include idlers A and B In a 500 dollar kit! Half the kits out there don't even include idlers. Importexperts wasn't even selling one with all the idlers at the time I purchased a kit. I didn't get Idler A (see link for callouts) with my kit I got from Rockauto. I mean, there is very small amounts of bearing play in the brand new idlers I got, but I don't know whats in spec or out of spec. Somehow I expected them to be rock solid with no play whatsoever. If some play is ok then I'm less worried. I had a really hard time finding a kit that included all the idlers and didn't have the green plastic bearing retainers which are apparently junk. And I still screwed up... I assumed that because the SKF kit I got contained the TENSIONER and 3 idlers, that they were all there... Wrong. I got the package from Subikid with the old style tensioner bracket and piston, thanks man! Monkey, what do you seal it with? Fujibond? http://subarupartsforyou.com/cp_partdetail.php?partid=10052 I have some gray Permatex... Thanks for the helpful graphic. 30 ft lbs on the relief valve plug!! Wow. That could have been messy if that thing came out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Fujibond is great. Hondabond is just and good as cheaper from what I have read. I used gray permatex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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