Regardie Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 yes...but that isn't the problem. The problem is the design of the new one which was made for AT. They used it on later model MT systems without much luck. My 2000 is glass smooth while the 2004 spills drinks with regularity. That is odd as Subaru used the new style on all the Forester and Impreza EJ251 models starting in 99 or 2000, MT and AT. Though there is an ECM change in the Legacy for 04 that might contribute to your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmart Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 It is entirely possible that the parts I mention aren't the problem, or that the electronics that control them are. I'm going by what the shop is telling me. I have a hard time believing that the part design is truly an issue, as there would be a lot more information about this on the Internet. Either way, I'm disappointed in Subaru. not only have their cars gotten to big and fat, but they've really let down a die hard supporter (and seller of many of their cars for them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selym Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Selym, what does yours look like? The one on my 5 speed 2004 GT looks like this: http://product-images.highwire.com/2183257/3254725.jpg The IAC for my EJ251-equipped USDM 2002 Legacy GT looks like the one above. The nice thing about this style is you don't have to worry about the coolant gasket that the older one requires. Good luck on your quest for better drive-ability! Actually, these jerky cars are great for teaching folks how to drive manual. If you can drive my '02 smoothly, you can drive any car smoothly. Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selym Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It is entirely possible that the parts I mention aren't the problem, or that the electronics that control them are. I'm going by what the shop is telling me. I have a hard time believing that the part design is truly an issue, as there would be a lot more information about this on the Internet. Either way, I'm disappointed in Subaru. not only have their cars gotten to big and fat, but they've really let down a die hard supporter (and seller of many of their cars for them). It think the ECU programming is mostly to blame. It feels like it cuts the fuel too abruptly when the throttle is closed. When this happens, the IAC has to spring into action to maintain idle RPM. It's even worse when the A/C compressor is cycling. Having said that, I'm sure forcing the engine to breath its own blow-by doesn't do the IAC valve any favors. I've never removed mine to see how dirty it is, but I have blasted it with Sea Foam (aerosol spray) a few times. This has resolved the near-stalls that sometimes happen when you come to an abrupt stop, but has not resolved the jerkiness in stop-and-go traffic. I commute through Boston daily, so I feel your pain. It's really been a great car save for this one quirk. I think the only way to effectively troubleshoot the IAC valve is with a tool that will show you its duty cycle, such as the Select Monitor. Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copyboy311 Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 It think the ECU programming is mostly to blame. It feels like it cuts the fuel too abruptly when the throttle is closed. When this happens, the IAC has to spring into action to maintain idle RPM. It's even worse when the A/C compressor is cycling. Myles Interesting to note that it IS worse when the A/C is on. I always thought it was a bushing somewhere causing the problems, but these recent posts convince me it could very well be ECU-related. I can't believe how long this thread has been going on with no resolution to the problem. I'm just about to sell my car now, anyway, because 180k miles is enough for me. So it'll be the next owner's problem. Good luck finding a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniGT Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hello All, I have a 2001 Outback H4 5MT (non-turbo) with 206k miles that is having the same symptoms as what has been said here. Actually, it has had these symptoms for at least 2 years, but I think it is currently at its worst. I experience these issues probably about 98% of the time, but every once in a while, when the outside temperature (and probably humidity) is just right, the engine seems to run the way it should. I do not believe this has anything to do with mechanical driveline slop, but feel as though it is definitely an issue with the feedback or control (ECU). I have already the following things to try to rectify this issue and : Clean the IACV (Idle air Control Valve) Replaced both the IACV gasket and the throttle body gasket Measured the TPS (Throttle position sensor) with a multimeter while actuating it... Seems linear. New spark plugs, new plug wires. Sent out the fuel injectors to be cleaned. All came back excellent. Treated the car with Chevron "Techron" and also Redline "Fuel System Treatment" (at separate times). Used one or 2 cans of SeaFoam treatment, applying some to the fuel, and some directly into a vacuum port of the manifold. (as per the directions). Replaced the Intake Air Temperature Sensor. Checked the oxygen sensor response with an OBD monitor. I am also experiencing another problem which I believe are probably related: Stalling when returning to neutral when approaching a stop. This is worse in the winter, but goes away once operating temperature is reached. To avoid stalling, I have to either disengage the clutch very early, very late, or disengage normally but goose the throttle before the RPMs fall below 1000. None of the things I've tried seemed to have any effect on either problem. I have also unplugged the front oxygen sensor and proceeded to start and drive the car. No positive changes were noticed. The thinking processes behind this test was that the ECU should have defaulted to open-loop, using a default fuel curve. I can say that the A/C seems to definitely have an effect but its not 100% correlated; It is often less noticeable with the A/C compressor off, but There have been times were it behaves properly with the compressor on, and other times where it is just as bad with the compressor off. (Note: The defroster automatically turns the compressor on, though the A/C light does not illuminate) I am left rather confused and utterly frustrated. This is my #1 annoyance with this car. I have read of similar problems where the oxygen sensor was bad but the ECU did not throw any codes. I am very tempted to replace it but its another $108 I'd have to spend. Has anyone here tried replacing the front oxygen sensor? --John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selym Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hello All, I am also experiencing another problem which I believe are probably related: Stalling when returning to neutral when approaching a stop. This is worse in the winter, but goes away once operating temperature is reached. To avoid stalling, I have to either disengage the clutch very early, very late, or disengage normally but goose the throttle before the RPMs fall below 1000. Has anyone here tried replacing the front oxygen sensor? --John There's probably no point in replacing the front oxygen sensor if the signal looks good. Did you replace the neutral switch on the transmission? That may solve the problem of the engine nearly stalling when you come to a stop. Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniGT Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 ...Did you replace the neutral switch on the transmission? That may solve the problem of the engine nearly stalling when you come to a stop. Myles Well, the stalling occurs even before I actually make the transition from in gear to neutral, but I won't rule this out until I test it tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selym Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Well, the stalling occurs even before I actually make the transition from in gear to neutral, but I won't rule this out until I test it tonight. A bad neutral switch can cause problems with the trans. is in gear or neutral. You can unplug the switch, attach a multimeter (in continuity mode) to the terminals on the connector, and move the gear shift in and out of gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniGT Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I just tested the "Neutral Safety Switch" and it seems to be working properly. I diagnosed it with the help of FreeSSM (Awesome application, Google it). I doubted the switch would be the culprit but I want to rule things out scientifically. One other symptom which I forgot to include in my first post (and I'm thinking this has a major relation) happens as follows: While attempting to drive at constant 30mph in 2nd or 3rd gear, I can feel the car gently accelerating and decelerating while my foot remains perfectly still on the throttle. Its subtle but if its definitely there. The period of the cycle is probably (at my best estimate) 1.25 to 1.5 seconds. This is far too slow to be the effects of a warped brake rotor, and the period does not seem to be proportional to the speed (I have gotten this to occur at approximately the same RPM but in different gears). This is one of the main symptoms that makes me believe it is a sensor/controls issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selym Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 One other symptom which I forgot to include in my first post (and I'm thinking this has a major relation) happens as follows: While attempting to drive at constant 30mph in 2nd or 3rd gear, I can feel the car gently accelerating and decelerating while my foot remains perfectly still on the throttle. Its subtle but if its definitely there. The period of the cycle is probably (at my best estimate) 1.25 to 1.5 seconds. This is far too slow to be the effects of a warped brake rotor, and the period does not seem to be proportional to the speed (I have gotten this to occur at approximately the same RPM but in different gears). This is one of the main symptoms that makes me believe it is a sensor/controls issue. Does this happen only with the A/C turned on? The A/C compressor cycling on and off will make my car buck slightly. Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniGT Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Does this happen only with the A/C turned on? The A/C compressor cycling on and off will make my car buck slightly. Myles No, it happened today with the HVAC completely off. I know what you're referring to but this is more pronounced than the compressor cycling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniGT Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 So, anybody have any other suggestions? I had hoped a solution would be found before this thread dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lleiro Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 No tranny fluid/dipstick on the manual. Its uses the diff. fluid for the gearbox There is a dipstick in the 2000 LGT MT. Look for a yellow handle underneath the left side of the air filter assembly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impatient Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 FWIW, 05-09 Outback XT's (and I assume other turbos of this generation, and maybe NA engines as well) have variable valve timing with Active Variable Cam Solenoids (AVCS) on each cylinder bank. I had erratic idling and near dying but most annoyingly was the erratic sputtering (jerky) low RPM driving behavior between 1000 & 1700 RPM. A local tuner hooked up his computer and found the ECU was constantly over / under compensating. He replaced both AVCS's and things got dramatically better. Prior to this, the dealer was worthless, had to be coaxed into hooking up their computer (which they obviously didn't know how to read), bilked me for some useless work, and next wanted to run a $400 compression check (on an engine that uses virtually no oil (maybe 1/3 qt per 4000 mi max) after insisting on replacing the 100K mile plugs (which they had installed only 30K earlier). F them. But find a tuner who can read a diagnostic computer, and surely they can spot your problem. Fortunately, I had 3 days left on my ext warranty. They covered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kgsoderb Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Hey guys, I have a manual 2000 Subaru Legacy GT that has the same issue. I learned how to drive it smoothly so it hasn't really bothered me so much. Selling car now so trying to resolve issue. Took to a mechanic and he couldn't diagnose. Don't know much about cars but after doing some research I found a forum that says the issue may be with the "accelerator cable". This was in a Honda Accord but I imagine it is similar in a Subaru. They said that over time the accelerator cable loosens up and it just needs to be adjusted. When it happens it does feel like there is some pulling that is coming from the accelerator. Anybody know enough about cars to verify that this could be the cause..??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copyboy311 Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 All I can add is that the driveline jerk/slop doesn't happen for the first couple minutes when the car is started cold, leading me to believe some recent posts that pointed to engine control sensors. During the first minute or so of driving, the car is in choke mode (layman's term for sure), so I don't know if that has something to do with keeping the RPMs fairly constant and thus affecting the drivability and eliminating the jerk. Needless to say, I started this thread more than two years ago and I'm still dealing with it. The only things I really did to try to solve it, though, were to change the gear oil and replace the transmission mount. Could just be that it's the clutch. I'm on my original clutch at nearly 180k miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrayspecs Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I was having this issue pretty bad as we'll and found out my PVC valve was sticking open causing some on off throttle issues when shifting changing it helped out a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I recently fixed this problem by replacing the neutral switch. A faulty neutral switch can cause the IACV to function like the car is in neutral when decelerating in gear. I would also like to point out that a high mileage all wheel drive car will have some slop in the driveline. In my case, the faulty switch made this much worse. To test the neutral switch you can just use a multimeter on the continuity setting while having someone put the car in and out of gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniGT Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 SOLVED!!! After reading Aidan's post, I decided to pay more attention the the neutral safety switch. I had previously tested the switch by running through the gears while parked and monitoring the switch using openEDM. That test had showed the switch working fine, however, I did not perform that test while moving. The test which revealed the switch was faulty was pushing and holding the gear lever farther into gear while moving. If it is your switch, you will notice the throttle behaves much differently as you feather it near the coasting point. Upon replacing the neutral safety switch, I notice the old switch had flat spots work into the plunger, where as the new switch was a nicely rounded dome. Since replacing the switch, the difference in throttle behavior is vastly improved; like driving a new car. Thank you all who've contributed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumbleRumble Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 How do you get to the switch? How much work involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_m Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 The switch is on the side of the transmission and should be pretty easy to get to and replace if you can get underneath the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copyboy311 Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 Glad you guys got this figured out. I posed the question nearly 3 years ago and don't even have the car anymore, but when it happens to my 2011 Legacy, I'll know what to do. SOLVED!!! After reading Aidan's post, I decided to pay more attention the the neutral safety switch. I had previously tested the switch by running through the gears while parked and monitoring the switch using openEDM. That test had showed the switch working fine, however, I did not perform that test while moving. The test which revealed the switch was faulty was pushing and holding the gear lever farther into gear while moving. If it is your switch, you will notice the throttle behaves much differently as you feather it near the coasting point. Upon replacing the neutral safety switch, I notice the old switch had flat spots work into the plunger, where as the new switch was a nicely rounded dome. Since replacing the switch, the difference in throttle behavior is vastly improved; like driving a new car. Thank you all who've contributed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryder Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The test which revealed the switch was faulty was pushing and holding the gear lever farther into gear while moving. If it is your switch, you will notice the throttle behaves much differently as you feather it near the coasting point. This explained so much to me! I've been experiencing this issue since I bought my car in September. My dad said "it's just how manual cars are". I always said to my friend watch my shifter when I get on and off, and you could actually see that when I got on in fourth, the stick would pull towards me, and when I got off, it lunged forward towards the center. I highly believe this is the issue in my vehicle as well, and will be tending to it soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regardie Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Did I miss it? Do you have the part number of the bit you replaced as I am having a hard time finding it on opposedforces. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.