xt2005bonbon Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Since the belt tensioner broke off and there is no tension on the timing belt anymore, how does one perform the crankshaft and cam sprocket alignment? My crankshaft sprocket need to be turned 180 degree and my cam sprockets 180+45. But obviously I can't get all of them to turn at the same time. see the dilemma? I can't find the answer on the forum. All scenarios I found assume that one will use the old timing belt to adjust alignment. Please help guys. I would really appreciate it. EDIT AS OF 20 March 2012: For those who don't want to read the whole thread, the answer to my problems is found in post 26. Post 28 has some good insights about piston positions. So check those posts out if needs be. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmx045 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 use a 22m socket to center the crankshaft so that the I mark is pointing up, rotate clockwise. look at the marks on the cam sprockets and line them up with the notches in the timing cover backing like _ | for left side and | _ for right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 So does that mean that I can move the crankshaft (clockwise) regardless of the current position of the respective camshafts? here is my case shown below. I tried to draw the current marks on all my sprockets (except the crankshaft one, but it shows its keyway at 12 o'clock). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 You may want to put the cams on the marks first. Once the pulleys and belt are on rotate the engine by hand and make sure the marks come back to the correct position. Don't worry about the marks on the belt. If I'm correct. one rotation of the crank 360* and the cams should come back to the marks. I think that's how these engines work. If not it must be two rotation's of the crank. I think that's a V8. It's been a long time. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 ok, so we have two different opinions here. A.Should one do this: 1.align crankshaft by turning it clockwise 2.align the camshafts B.Or should one do the opposite: 1.align the camshafts first 2.align crankshaft by turning it clockwise If I'm correct. one rotation of the crank 360* and the cams should come back to the marks. ^I think it is two revolutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Anyone? I am kina in a desperate mode right now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I would align the cams first. But I think it's possible to have the intake 180* out and the marks will line up. You may be able to feel the valves as use rotate the cam. I think at the slow speed your'll be moving things you should have a good feel for what's going on. I'm better at this stuff when I see it in front of me and can visualize better. PM BAC5.2 I'm surprised he hasn't chimed in on this yet. bmx045 may be some help too. I know when I did my timing belt the cam moved but it was easy to put it back. I think your going to feel a lot of tension on the cam when #1 is at TDC. When it's 180 out, there should be a different feel to it. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 thanks for your reply Max. My second post has a diagram that shows exactly the current position of all cams including the crankshaft sprocket. I guess what should be done first is make sure all valves are not lifted, then align the crankshaft sprocket. If I understand the manual correctly, the LH (driver side) cams ARE LIFTED when they are aligned for timing belt installation. Whereas that is NOT the case for the RH when these are aligned. Is this correct? If this is, I would do the following: 1.sloooowly align the RH cams (passenger side) as per timing belt installation requirements. (at this point, they are at the zero-lift position) 2.get the LH cams zero lifted. How? I don't know yet 3.when all valves are zero lifted, THEN align the crankshaft sprocket as per timing belt installation specs. 4.at this point, RH cams and the crankshaft sprocket are all aligned except the LH ones. So go ahead and align the LH cams. 5.then install new timing belt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The passenger side is #1 cylinder. At TDC all the valves will/must be closed. This well be the only cylinder with both valves closed. I think #3 will have both closed but it is 90* out in the firing sequence, but I'm not sure because I know the drivers side intake cam is under load when #1 is at TDC, so #2 and 4 must have one valve open and one closed. I'm looking at your picture and trying to suggest something... Can you understand what what Chris is saying here? is it this simple with a boxer engine ? Are there marks on the black timing belt cover ? I can't view my pictures here from I did my timiing belt a few years back. But it is on the top page in the maintenance forum. look at the marks on the cam sprockets and line them up with the notches in the timing cover backing like _ | for left side and | _ for right Here's my thread, I think post 28 has pictures. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/replacing-timing-belt-94193.html Edited based on post 29. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmx045 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 the timing cover backing at the top has slits, this is where you line up the cams, make sure the crank is centered up, put the belt on with the mark for the crank on, move cams so the top notch and lateral notches are aligned, place belt on those and see if the belt mark lines up with the cam gear marks, it should. also, there are marks at the bottom of the intake cams and the top of the exhaust cams that should end up looking lining up. i dont know what to tell you, there has GOT to be a write up on here or nasioc explaining it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 I believe I understand the procedures on how align all the cams and crankshaft sprockets with the markings and install the belt. But all the write-ups (I read yours Mike) that I found (+ the manual) assume you are aligning things using your old belt that should still be on ([ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnPzDyOscz4&feature=related]as shown in Meatys youtube video around 3 min in[/ame]). The problem is I can't do that since there is no tension on my timing belt. So now I am stuck trying to align each sprocket one at a time. If the cranksprocket was already aligned, then I would just work on aligning the cam sprockets but the crank sprocket is currently 180 off. That's why I ask which sprocket should I align first. I hope this makes sense. I appreciate your help guys. I really do (cause stranded in the middle of nowhere ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 There also must be a proceedure in the service manual. You are basicaly starting from a rebuild of the engine. Do you have the service maunal ? I'll pm you one just in case. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yeah I do have access to it. The only thing it says about the timing belt installation is 1.align the crankshaft sprocket with the mark on the oil pump 2.align the passenger side cam sprocket starting from the bottom one 3.align the driver side ones starting from the bottom one as well That's all they say. It's just that I am afraid of doing step 1. I am just scared that it may cause the pistons to hit valves due to the current positions of the cam sprockets as shown on my second post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Again your moving the crank so slowly you should be able to feel the piston if it hit's a valve. If you want. pull the spark plugs to make it easier to rotate the crank for a better feel. I just pulled up the manual to page 1749. I have it in a number of places. ALs remmebr to rotate the crank by hand a few times before you put the cover on and start the car. I think if you follow the directions on page 1751 you should be fine. picture ME00082 and ME00084 are what bmx045 is talking about. If all the marks plus those line up your good to go. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 yeah those are the pages I've been starring at for the past couple of days (1748-1755). And as you can see on page 1751, they say to first adjust the crank sprocket. But it does not say at that point the actual position of the cam sprockets. And that is where my confusion came---> can I do step 1 from page 1751 regardless of the cam sprockets position? So it sounds like I will have to adjust slowly and see how it 'feels'. Oh man that sucks. Tomorrow is D day I'll do all of that. I will first pick up a few parts from the dealer and will tackle this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 See if the service manager will let you talk with one of the techs that has assembled engines. But I'm sure you'll be ok. READ PAGE 1752 again I think that's the answer. • When the timing belts are not installed, four camshafts are held at the “zero-lift” position, where all cams on camshafts do not push the intake and exhaust valves down. (Under this condition, all valves remain unlifted.) • When the camshafts are rotated to install the timing belts, #2 intake and #4 exhaust cam of camshafts (LH) are held to push their corresponding valves down. (Under this condition, these valves are held lifted.) Camshafts (RH) are held so that their cams do not push valves down. • Camshafts (LH) must be rotated from the “zero- lift” position to the position where the timing belt is to be installed with the smallest possible angle, in order to prevent mutual interference Oh remember my lesson. put the belt over that small lower roller/pulley last, before you release the tensioner. f/n7 on page 1753 ME-00089 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 See if the service manager will let you talk with one of the techs that has assembled engines. But I'm sure you'll be ok. yeah. I've already asked the tech guy if I can talk to him tomorrow. I'll bring my laptop. In any case, I wanted to know what the community here would have to say. Oh remember my lesson. put the belt over that small lower roller/pulley last, before you release the tensioner. f/n7 on page 1753 ME-00089 yeah I remember that this part is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-BGTLimited Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 the cam sprockets have a tendency to spin off the lobe to close the valves due to the spring pressure, so with no belt on them I highly doubt the valves are currently stuck open.. I would rotate the cam sprockets one at a time till you find them to be in a free spot meaning they will spin 1/2 to 1/4 turn or more with only your hand on the pulley, doing that ensures all the valves are in the closed position, then as noted turn the engine over till you get the mark on the crank lined up. After that then you can align each cam sprocket to the respective marks while installing a belt... As in the belt changing guide, the passenger side sprockets will be at one of those free rotating spots so you can set them by hand and they will stay, on the drivers side one of them will be opening a valve and want to spin passed that mark so you will have to align the two sprockets and use something to clamp them together CAREFULLY so they stay in position then install the belt. There is nothing you can get way out of whack here as long as you just take the time to ensure that none of the valves are open before rotating the engine, the real "position" of each component when setting the crank doesn't matter until your putting the belt on for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Thanks for explaining that, that's how I now recall the feeling when I did the timing belt and I used the ford wrench and C clamp to hold the intake pulley. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-BGTLimited Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yeah you don't need much pressure to hold them either, the pic I posted in the belt changing guide, I only had a small pair of vice grips holding the two pulleys together, you have to be lite on the pressure because of them being composite pulleys and you could easily crack them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yes I saw that photo yesterday. I wanted to say that is a great idea. I just printed the pages from the manual and I'll add them to my 3 ring binder note book if I don't already have them there. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 the cam sprockets have a tendency to spin off the lobe to close the valves due to the spring pressure, so with no belt on them I highly doubt the valves are currently stuck open.. That's what I thought. But in my case I still left the belt on and it is still holding the cam sprockets in the position I've shown on my second post. So perhaps in their current positions, some valves are still opened. I would rotate the cam sprockets one at a time till you find them to be in a free spot meaning they will spin 1/2 to 1/4 turn or more with only your hand on the pulley, doing that ensures all the valves are in the closed position, then as noted turn the engine over till you get the mark on the crank lined up. After that then you can align each cam sprocket to the respective marks while installing a belt... So what you are saying kinna goes along with what I suggested in post #8. Correct? And yeah, I bought a small pair vice grip to hold the driver side cams once they are adjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-BGTLimited Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Thats exactly right, and the way you find zero lift is when the cam sprockets have that free rotation feel, I can't remember how much they turn but there should be a little bit of ration before you feel them starting up a lobe again. Just be gentile with the vice grips, I would rather hear you say you had to adjust the cams three times because you didn't have enough holding power on the vice grips and they slipped... over I clamped them down and broke a pulley... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 thanks for confirming. So when I do work on one cam sprocket at a time to close the valves, will it matter which way I turn it to bring it to 'free rotation feel'? Cause they give you warning for the driver side in the manual but not for the passenger side. sigh, getting there.. Just be gentile with the vice grips, I would rather hear you say you had to adjust the cams three times because you didn't have enough holding power on the vice grips and they slipped... over I clamped them down and broke a pulley... Sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-BGTLimited Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Not that I can think of... You should be able to go in either direction. I'd go in a clock wise roation though, that way you never start to loosen a cam bolt by accident, even though it would take a lot of pressure to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.