SteVTEC Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 No matter how good the automatic is, it still has a torque converter which means around another 5-8% of parasitic losses on top of a manual and less power at the wheels. And the 65 lbs difference is still 65 lbs and affects the power to weight ratio negatively. And a skilled driver will most definitely be able to bang out shifts quicker with the manual than the automatic. That said, I'm still on the fence with regards to 5MT vs 5AT in the Legacy. Heck, I'm still on the fence if I want the car or not, hehe. With the manual I'll have better control, a quicker car, and no worries about blowing up the auto. But the auto is more relaxing to drive, my wife can drive it too, the AWD system is more advanced, and I'm not a hardcore modder/racer anyways. It's just a major PITA when my wife can only drive her car and not mine, so I'm leaning towards the automatic for that reason. The manumatic functions should keep it entertaining enough. But if the autos start having troubles in a year or so I could change my mind rather quickly and just re-double efforts to get her to learn how to drive a manual. hehe. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Steve, I think you'll do a fine job teaching her how to drive manual. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mines Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I have always wanted to get a manual car because all the control u get. The only problem was that i driven manual only a couple times before. So my dad decided to rent a Cooper S to drive. And was that ever fun. I practiced stick for 2 days and we returned the mini yest. I kinda miss it now But im sure that longing will disapper once my legacy comes on the 12th Bottom line. If u dont mind changing gears in the occasional traffic, manual is always better, unless u have some F1 paddle shifter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 [quote name='SteVTEC']But the auto is more relaxing to drive, my wife can drive it too, the AWD system is more advanced, and I'm not a hardcore modder/racer anyways. It's just a major PITA when my wife can only drive her car and not mine, so I'm leaning towards the automatic for that reason. The manumatic functions should keep it entertaining enough. But if the autos start having troubles in a year or so I could change my mind rather quickly and just re-double efforts to get her to learn how to drive a manual. hehe. Steve[/quote] Steve, Exactly the reasons why I went with 5EAT. No doubt the 5MT is more fun to drive, but I needed to balance it out with practicality. Actually, I'd be more suspicious of the 5MT durability than the 5EAT. Subaru doesn't exactly have a stellar track record with their manual trannies and the current 5MT is still a derivative of the original model that was designed for the 1.8L engine. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteVTEC Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 I "hear" the 5MT in the Legacy is "reinforced" ala FXT and STi and shouldn't have the same problems as the WRX. Actually I'm pretty sure it says 'reinforced' in the brochures I have. I still wouldn't be going out doing 6k clutch dumps, but it ought to be a little less trouble-prone than the WRX box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 I was extremely uneasy at the initial release about it while Paul and others have calmed my fears big time. While it may not be the absolutely strongest available application, I don't think there is a reason to distrust it like those in the previous WRX. Supposedly the problem with those mostly from what I'm told is case flex, and the rigidity of the new case is supposed to be significantly increased. I guess I'm not so unhappy about it anymore. I'll be plenty happy with it I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 hey Mines, where did you rent the mini? i always wanted to try the mini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 I'm going to go test drive a Leg GT wagon MT and an OBXT auto tomorrow morning to see the difference. Getting a manual could make things more tough since my wife couldn't drive one, but it would be all mine. Since I would be doing some tuning to take the power up a bit more, I am just uneasy about the auto's ability to handle extra power. Who knows though, I may be forced to get an automatic in the end. If the Sportshift actually holds the gear until you tell it to shift, that could be decent if the car stays stock. Acura sportshift autos SUCK as do Infiniti, and those are what I have the most experience with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Preston, go test drive an H6 too just for comparo to the 2.5XT. I didn't get to drive an XT auto, but I'll say the H6 was alarmingly mundane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 The H6 being timid is from the nature of the engine. I drove an XT 5EAT and LL Bean back to back and they perform quite differently despite having the same tranny. I was hoping for more with the new H6 and it's fancy variable timing and lift. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mines Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 SP, i rented the Mini Cooper S from Beverlyhills Budget. It was $79 a day with an online reservation. Without is $99. And there was a limit of 50 miles a day with .54 surcharge for each additional mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 BTW Seth, the manual I'll drive is just like your wagon coming- AB non-Ltd. Looks absolutely amazing compared to the AB/grey Outbacks (XT & LL Bean) they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Nice to hear you've driven both Ken. I would have except no XT's there. It's as much as I expected though. I think they sacrificed some torque and response for that ultimate hp number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Yes, the peak HP numbers conveniently lining up at 250HP leads me to believe that it was done purely for marketing reasons. Imagine how much more difficult it would have been for Subaru to explain to the masses why their flagship model with a bigger engine makes less HP. What struck me most about the H6 is that it didn't seem to have any more tip-in power compared to the H4 turbo. I was expecting the extra 0.5L of displacement to help there. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 I just drove a Legacy GT sedan with Sportshift and a Legacy GT wagon w/ 5MT. First let me say that the automatic is the best of that type that I have driven. The way that it holds in gear until you change it is awesome, but it has the problem of delayed reaction on the shift like all of these autos have. It was a good automatic, but I was feeling a bit disappointed in the car compared to what I was expecting. A quick ride in the MT wagon quickly changed that. I felt much more in control by not having to work the gas to get the car in the gear I wanted in the auto & auto sport modes. Acceleration felt much quicker in 1st and 2nd gears though I didn't do a quick shift to see if I could shift as quickly as the auto does out of fear of beating on it. The throws felt surprisingly long, but a short shift kit would easily take care of that. So in the end, the auto is a good one if you have to go that route, but I will end up with a manual even though it keeps my wife from being able to use the car. That's better anyway. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 250/219 more peaky versus 250/250 at a more broad and lower rpm is a BIG difference. That sure is how I feel and my initial impression was that it wasn't going to have quite as much getup and go, my initial impression was overachieving. That's really sad. Too bad it wasn't like 240/235 but at a much lower rpm on both accounts with a broader torque curve. Heck, even the international models making a few less ponies are making about 5 more lb-ft and it might even be broader (would have to compare graphs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteVTEC Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 [quote name='SUBE555']Nice to hear you've driven both Ken. I would have except no XT's there. It's as much as I expected though. I think they sacrificed some torque and response for that ultimate hp number.[/quote] Well it's a Honda VTEC-like engine now. Makes big promises with that large peak horsepower number, but falls very short due to lack of torque and unwillingness to move unless you constantly keep it flogged. What else did you expect? :lol: The Honda "philosophy" is that extra gearing makes up for the lack of torque, but in reality most of them don't rev any higher than any other engine (exceptions = their 4-bangers). I don't think the H6 revs any higher than the turbo-H4 at all. And on top of that it's a lot heavier too. In an application like this they would have been much better off going with a larger displacement higher torque engine. They still would have been able to make their 250hp target, but also have the torque to back it up, and also wouldn't have needed to bias the poweband of the engine so much towards the top-end. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 [quote name='SteVTEC'][quote name='SUBE555']Nice to hear you've driven both Ken. I would have except no XT's there. It's as much as I expected though. I think they sacrificed some torque and response for that ultimate hp number.[/quote] Well it's a Honda VTEC-like engine now. Makes big promises with that large peak horsepower number, but falls very short due to lack of torque and unwillingness to move unless you constantly keep it flogged. What else did you expect? :lol: The Honda "philosophy" is that extra gearing makes up for the lack of torque, but in reality most of them don't rev any higher than any other engine (exceptions = their 4-bangers). I don't think the H6 revs any higher than the turbo-H4 at all. And on top of that it's a lot heavier too. In an application like this they would have been much better off going with a larger displacement higher torque engine. They still would have been able to make their 250hp target, but also have the torque to back it up, and also wouldn't have needed to bias the poweband of the engine so much towards the top-end. Steve[/quote] Actually, the H6 does have a higher redline by 500rpm. The 6000 redline came up awefully fast in the GT, and I can certainly understand a desire for the STi's 6500rpm redline 2.5T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throttlejockey Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 Redline is 6500rpm in the GT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrQ Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 I wish the redline was just a bit higher as well. I know, by just listening now, when to shift in my WRX, but while driving the wife's FXT with a lower redline, I keep bumping it. I'm sure the learning curve will be short in the GT but there is something very satisfying about cranking it out that little bit more. Of course, when I test drove the STI, the little warning light kept popping too so maybe I'm just rev happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Redlines: WRX=7000rpm STi=7000rpm H6=7000rpm 2.5GT=6500rpm 2.5XT=6500rpm 2.5N/A engines=6250rpm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubie02 Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 I would think the wife not being ablt to drive stick would be a SELLING point for gettting the MT..."gee, honey TOO BAD you can't drive a stick, ah well..." hehehe Of course stupid me, I taught my gf to drive stick *sigh*... For me since I live in a genrally less congested area, there was no question I was going MT. I suppose if I lived someplace like I used to where there was bumper to bumper traffic or I was sitting at the toll booths for 45 mins...well, I can understand someone choosing the AT under those circumstances. I first test drove an AT (they didn't have a MT at the first dealer) and it was still a fun car. There is no question though that an AT tends to rob hp and cost fuel economy often too, though that is getting better. But still in this months CR they had a sidebar on AT vs MT and said their tests show an average of a 10% loss in both power/speed and fuel economy in an AT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Oops, sorry for the typo on the redline. With the AVCS the redline should be able to be raised with different cams (STi cams?) while not affecting the lower rpm range hp/tq characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Well pointed out SUBE but remember too that the 2.5 revs a lot lower as it has a few more cubes. It would be nice to have the extra 500, this might be saved for the STi version, well heres hoping atleast.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 The 500 extra revs are indeed already available in the STi version. Not that it isn't capable of it. I just wouldn't mind if that extra 500rpm was there for the sake of tapering range, I'm used to 6500rpm redline with my Phase I 2.5L N/A engine, but in the new one it will come up much quicker. Would sort of be nice to have that extra safety factor if I'm running it up. Maybe I'll just be relearning my shifting methods or shall we call it MADNESS! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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