redline76 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Gave the wagon to the boys at Harman yesterday to play with. I had them install an STI up pipe, Cobb catted downpipe, and do an ECUtek reflash. For reference, Harman uses a Dynojet. Stock: HP - 205 TQ - 215 Stage 2: HP - 253 TQ- 272 I can scan the dyno sheet if anyone's really interested. Subjectively these are my impressions: The car makes excellent power. It's strongest in the midrange, so it really pulls after 3K. 3rd gear acceleration on the fwy is extremely fun. It's torquey around town; it feels as if the car dropped 400 pounds. Throttle response is a bit choppy; I'm going to speak with Dan as he mentioned that there were drive-by-wire settings that could be altered in the reflash. Power-wise, these mods will be enough for the majority of Legacy owners, I suspect. It really does accelerate ferociously like the STI I used to own. The Cobb downpipe is not silent. You definitely hear the turbo spool and recirc as you get on and off the throttle. If the windows are up, it's not nearly as detectable. Windows down, you realize you're not so stealty anymore. Almost like a mini BOV effect, if that's what you're after. I've heard a bit of wastegate flutter but only when I'm really listening for it and if there's a surface to reflect sound, i.e. running along a row of parked cars at part throttle or a concrete divider while entering the fwy. I'm pretty picky about these sorts of things, so I'm personally not a fan of the "symphony of sounds" but it's liveable for now. I'll let you all know how annoyed I am next week All said, it's tough to stay out of the throttle and the car is responsive Hats off to Dan and the Harman crew; they did a nice job on the car and were extremely pleasant to deal with. I had a clanking issue with the front Whiteline swaybar and they quickly traced it down to a loose endlink bolt, no charge. I definitely recommend their services to all in the LA area. Very much a no bullshit approach which I appreciate. I also threw on a set of 18" wheels (f***ing hypocrite), but I'll save that for the "wheels" discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 How much $$ for the UP and DP install (if I may ask)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scans007 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 How much $$ for the UP and DP install (if I may ask)? Oh just drive up here, (MA) tons of us would help ya......Party at firedawgs Ooh can't wait, I took off the Perrin DP last week, installing Lachute UP/DP next weekend an AP flash back to stage two.......I won' t lie.....I MISS IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redline76 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 About $225. I could have done it elsewhere for $150 but Harman is 30 seconds from work and I figured I'd just have them do everything at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 how about taking it to the strip? i'm currious to see the times for the 1/4 mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Nice. We've got to meet up one weekend to compare. I'm running a very similar set up (STi UP, Cobb DP. Only difference is my axelback) with the AP Stage 2. I'd like to feel the difference between a custom tune and an off-the-shelf map. Did a comparison of your numbers to Landshark's (since he is at Stage 2 and was dyno'd at Harman Motive) and he reported 252 hp and 270 lb/ft, running an off-the-shelf AP Stage 2. The differences were that he also had a lightened pulley, Perrin TMIC, Cat Back exhaust, and was running the Perrin (catless) DP. Curious, did you dyno with the 18s on, or were you on your stockers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDxBOOST Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 How much $$ for the UP and DP install (if I may ask)? drive down to richmond, ill put em in with you in a couple hours worth of work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandShark Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Not to start the Cobb versus ECUTek (or any custom) tune debate here, but just a very interesting FYI. Dan at HM did my parts install for Stage 2. On the very same dyno running Cobb AP Stg 2 map, 91 octance the results were: HP - 252 / TQ - 270. Virtually identical results. I find that amazing. And I absolutely 2nd your comments about how great it is to deal with Dan and his crew. His approach is down-to-earth, very reasonable, and everyone is friendly. That's where all my LGT work will get done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redline76 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 how about taking it to the strip? i'm currious to see the times for the 1/4 mile. Unfortunately I'm not really into drag racing so I don't think I'll be able to help you out on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwood Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 landshark - any other mods? Nice to think the AP off the shelf *can* be similar to an ecutek tune. my question is how well the AP can adjust to little add on mods - like a perrin TMIC, for example. getting out of the legacy game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redline76 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Not to start the Cobb versus ECUTek (or any custom) tune debate here, but just a very interesting FYI. Dan at HM did my parts install for Stage 2. On the very same dyno running Cobb AP Stg 2 map, 91 octance the results were: HP - 252 / TQ - 270. Virtually identical results. I find that amazing. QUOTE] Is this with all the other stuff that SCGT mentioned (TMIC, Pulley, etc.)? Dave, I dyno'ed with the stock 17" wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandShark Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Well, in fact, I've got the Perrin TMIC. Lots of suspension stuff but that don't really matter. Engine mods: PDE Flex UP, Perrin catless DP, Borla exhaust, Perrin TMIC, Perrin turbo inlet hose, AVO panel filter, ltwt pulley, AVO BOV. edit: I had my 18" x 7.5" Rota wheels on. don't know if that helps or hurts again, I'm not saying "mine is better than yours" or any kind of macho debate. just simply pointing out that in this rare instance of having truly comparible results because both cars were tested on the same dyno at the same shop - the results were surprisingly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoDork Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Nice Results Redline76!! I've dealt with Dan and the crew at Harman Motive, they are a great bunch of guys and really easy to work with and bounce questions off of! I'll be using their services again in the NEAR future!! Carry on!! ~Sucka-Duck~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDxBOOST Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 ill finally have 1/4 mile results friday....rained 2 weekends ago, closed last friday...but this friday...its on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 So, redline, show us the 18s. And prepare for the flame fest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redline76 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Did I forget to mention my custom FMIC, SSR competitions, and 11lb aluminum flywheel? <that was a joke for those not used to internet humor> I too do not want to get into an AP vs. ECUtek debate but to be fair, our cars are not equipped the same. My car is stock, engine-wise with the exception of those three mods. I'm even using the Subaru air filter I ran down to my car to check the numbers and revised them from the original post in case you were looking at the first numbers I put up. They are: Stock: HP: 205 TQ: 215 Stage 2 HP: 253 TQ: 272 Anyways, this isn't a battle, I could care less if my car made more or less power than the next guy. I think it's interesting for anyone who has made these types of mods to post up as a basis of comparision for variances in dynos, tuners, mods, and baselines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwood Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 landshark - my question then is how much extra hp/tq you can squeeze out of your pullet and TMIC with a custom tune instead of stage 2? whether with streetuner or whatever. extra 10 or 15 hp / lbs/ft? anyone care to estimate? edit: I'm not so much interested in comparing cobb to ecutek either, just wondering to what degree going beyond UP and DP (exhaust) with the AP is a matter of declining returns. sorry to hijack. getting out of the legacy game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redline76 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 So, redline, show us the 18s. And prepare for the flame fest! Oh yeah, I have it coming They look pretty good and really suit the silver wagon, but I'm undecided if I want aftermarket wheels or not. The ride hasn't really suffered too much but now that that the car is huffing, whistling and making its presence known, I need to get more undercover I forgot the camera @ home but I'll be sure to snap a pic or two tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoDork Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I feel a hijack!... BTW: Redline76...yeah let's see the 18's... ~Sucka-Duck~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Agreed. My only intention in posting Landshark's #s was for comparison since you guys were both on the same dyno, both at Stage 2. This is about as pure a Cobb AP/EcuTek comparison as we've seen so far with the LGT. What it tells me is that a Pro Tune would likely be a very worthwhile mod. EDIT: I don't see this as a "Cobb AP v. EcuTek" comparison so much as an "Off-the-shelf v. Custom Tune" comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 What it tells me is that a Pro Tune would likely be a very worthwhile mod. We hope so Seriously, its another tool. Like if you had a couple hammers. They all get the job done. Its the proper combonation of performance parts that will start to shine through now. All you guys have to do it start putting together some cool machines for us all to ogle over. http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/rockon.gif Anyway, not to hijack Congrats to Redline, sounds like a super fun setup! http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/thumbup.gif Look forward to seeing some pics now. Justin COBB Tuning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redline76 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 We hope so Seriously, its another tool. Like if you had a couple hammers. They all get the job done. Its the proper combonation of performance parts that will start to shine through now. All you guys have to do it start putting together some cool machines for us all to ogle over. http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/rockon.gif Anyway, not to hijack Congrats to Redline, sounds like a super fun setup! http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/thumbup.gif Look forward to seeing some pics now. Justin COBB Tuning Thanks, you guys put together a nice high-quality piece. It could be quieter..... Anytime you alter from stock, there are going to be consequences. Some are good (more power), some not so good (noise, emissions). I understand that any downpipe will create some degree of turbo noise, that's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmorris Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 It's pretty easy to see how much power can be pulled out with just the addition of the Perrin TMIC....just check PDXtuning's posts. I realize the absolute numbers are not comparable but the increase from the IC and custom tuning is applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandShark Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I also just want to say congrats to you, Redline76. I know exactly what you're talking about as far as stage 2 really "waking up" the Legacy's true performance capability. I have spoken with Dan at HM about what might be expected from a StreetTuner reflash. He said it would likely be in the 10 hp range. Maybe a little more torque. Mostly, it was about developing a "safer" tune or one that really looks at the AFRs, timing issues, etc. and adjusting them to the best settings for my particular vehicle. That sounds great and all, but it's hard to sink nearly $500 large for that. The idea of getting an optional "racing gas map" based on super-high octane fuel is not so appealing because of the cost of that gas. I'd probably be too tempted all the time to pay too much for gas just to enjoy the added hp. I am hoping to move up to either the 18G or 20G turbo soon. Then, the Cobb StreetTuner will get a chance to show what it's made of! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEGA-C-YA Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 redline 76- your observations on driveability and various sounds (noises) is spot on. I have the Cobb downpipe, a gutted uppipe and an A/P @ stage 2. I am feeling and hearing the same things that you describe. I am curious what you mean by "choppy" throttle response. For me the off boost-on boost is not as smooth as Stage 1 was. Above 3k rpm it is fine but below is not smooth. I don't know if part of this is soft engine mounts and a more abrupt change in available torque than before. I agree with you about all the additional sounds that I can now hear - I don't care for them. I am really glad that I didn't get a down pipe with a thin wall section as I guess the noises would be even louder. I haven't modified and replaced the heat shield yet but I guess that will not quiet things down. I would be interested in a heat/sound shield for the Cobb downpipe for the turbo and the full downward length of the pipe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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