m sprank Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 AST is available from RCE. I got mine from Myles. $3-$4k depending on springs and plates. Deer Killer, you are way off. BC are not tunable. Thats the point. They have no engineering. They have 1 set of valving in 1 body that they use for every single coil over kit they sell. You could buy $10k worth of springs and spend months on the track and never get it right. We dont seem to be communicating on the same wave length, so I will leave it at that. The comment about Ohlins, was to show how much difference there is in price between what people buy for the street and what is acceptable to a NASCAR team. Just because Ohlins sends them out from the factory a certain way, does not mean that is how they stay. When you work with a race team you get a set of coils and a bucket of springs. Go testing and pick out the best spring combo. Then go back to the shop (or even in the van track side) and revalve the bodies. Drop the fluid and change shim packs. Then keep testing. It is a long process. You pay more for an RCE than a standard KW because some testing and set up has been done already. Does not mean more can not be done. But not with BC. No parts. Have to work with a manufacturer that actually makes more than 1 shock and has internal parts available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 No. Mass. Spring. Damper. As long as these things can be tuned to work properly together, it's fine. There's no voodoo in there. Since we're not about to change the mass of an LGT, if you're saying there's no way to get appropriate spring rates and damping for BC on a LGT, sure - then tell us in what regard. This ONLY works in a physics lab, I know, because I've done it many times. I have my MSME, and when I first started applying theory used in a lab to real world suspension dynamics, I was greatly humbled by all the guys with real race and track experience that don't have nearly the experience with all the "theory" I do. Once you toss in vehicle specific travel requirements, motion ratio's, roll center, CoG, roll couple %, tire compound, tire psi, road surface, etc., it becomes much more complex than mass=>spring=>damping. This is when specialty race shops and properly engineered CO systems (not BC) are worth their weight in gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 This ONLY works in a physics lab, I know, because I've done it many times. I have my MSME, and when I first started applying theory used in a lab to real world suspension dynamics, I was greatly humbled by all the guys with real race and track experience that don't have nearly the experience with all the "theory" I do. Once you toss in vehicle specific travel requirements, motion ratio's, roll center, CoG, roll couple %, tire compound, tire psi, road surface, etc., it becomes much more complex than mass=>spring=>damping. This is when specialty race shops and properly engineered CO systems (not BC) are worth their weight in gold. Sure it gets more complicated but this thread is about springs and dampers. The "theory" are not theories but laws of physics, if they don't seem to work out it's because of DIW. (Doing It Wrong). Experience gets something, but not the kind of voodoo you are ascribing to it. Might as well believe in damper gnomes that experts sneak into all their suspensions. What this will come down to is me trying one of these coilovers to quantify if/why/how they suck - because "it's cheap" and "not as good as $33k coilovers" and "made in Taiwan" are all really shitty reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Nothing against made in Taiwan. Lots of great products come from Taiwan. Generally, they have very high QC. Sorry, but the physics dont always work out like they do on paper. That is why real companies that race their products and perform major research and development start with the shock dyno and make lots of changes from there. Driving style alone plays a major role in set up. If it was just physics there would be no need for testing on the track. There is some "voodoo" to great suspensions. That is why there are so few of them and the gents that really know there stuff are considered Gods and revered by racers. Consider that if a system that could be used as a starting point by a NASCAR team is $33k, a low end set for what would be considered mild track duty is $4k, a good street set is $1800. What are you getting for $1k? The cheapest possible set up that allows adjustable ride height. Was that not where the entire conversation began? Coils are not just a DP. A piece of bent steel. There is a Lot to them. You get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 The "theory" are not theories but laws of physics, if they don't seem to work out it's because of DIW. (Doing It Wrong). No. The law of physics I'm assuming you're referring to is the value of "critical damping", achieved using the natural frequency of a simple harmonic oscillator, calculated with the critical damping coefficient to solve the second-order differential system. An automotive suspension is not a simple harmonic oscillator. All the other variables I stated above are also in play. For example, aside from the resonant motions of the springs, the dampers also must control "wheel bounce", which is the resonance of the unsprung weight of the suspension, brakes, etc. oscillating on the tire, which acts as a spring, the rate of which is dependent on sidewall stiffness, psi, etc. This is why suspension tuning is so much of a "black art", even if you crunch the numbers, and you don't "DIW", there is still tons of real world testing that must be done to see how a spring/damper system will function on any given chassis. Something BC/ISC/Megan etc. simply do not do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 What this will come down to is me trying one of these coilovers to quantify if/why/how they suck - because "it's cheap" and "not as good as $33k coilovers" and "made in Taiwan" are all really shitty reasons. It all about money. The question comes down to whose you want to spend. If you have excess dollars to buy & try various setups until you get your exact configuration that works for you...that's awesome. For most people, they get one, maybe two "shots" at getting it right. After that, there's no more money to be spent. I just ordered a set of BC coilovers, with the full understanding that they are not right for what I want to do (HPDE, autox, and spirited weekend driving). However, its all the money I have for this and better than the very tired stock suspension I have now. In 6 months, I'm sure I'll want something better (>$3k), but I dont have the expertise to tell the dealer what I'm looking for or expect. So...a thousand dollars is the cost of my education. If your case, I think you're missing the point. No single solution suspension will do everything for you (ok, maybe it will, but if you have $33k why are asking about the BC stuff?). You'll need to compromise on something. In your case, it looks like you're willing to bet your theory against real-world racing experience. Its your money. So, go buy a set of something and try it out. Let us know how it worked for you, with the understanding that you are tuning for your setup and driving style, not every Legacy driver out there. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmx045 Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I love my BC's, 32 way dampening adjustments make night and day changes as you adjust. full soft rides much better than my ralliteks on stock stuts, before they were blown. It also rides better than my friend's gt with cobbs/koni's. And we both have aftermarket swaybars. i have preload set at factory 5mm, factory BC ride height, camber plates set just in from center, alignment to subaru factory spec, and 10 clicks from full soft. Daily driving, perfect setup, but so would a koni/spring combo (though less adjustability aside from dampening). $33k for suspension? worth more than the car brand new? lmaogfy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegacyDan Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 had an interesting read through this and while i had it narrowed down to what i can get here locally new was a set of BC BR's for about $970. Until i i came across a place selling KW variant 2's for $1380. for the couple hundred extra dollars i should go for the V2's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmx045 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 ^without question. Kw is not in the same league as BC. Kw is far superior, not only in terms of valving, but also travel, which is often overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegacyDan Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 yup How you liking the BC's? If you could go back in time would you have gone for the KW's over the BC's? I could think of better things i would do if i was going back in time of course! but lets keep it legacy related! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmx045 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 i got the bc's for $900 bnib. can't complain. one absorber is defective, clunks, they're sending me another cartridge....whattayagunnado. other than that they ride real smooth, and so do 5 of my friends' for the money they're good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I've had the bc's for around two years. If I could've paid $1 everyday for the last two years to have the kw's or rceT1's instead, I would've in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmx045 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 ^^^^ where can you find t1's for $730? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrw Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 http://www.newenglandsubarus.com/forums/images/smilies/brotato.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 For the price on those KW's go KW. I think he meant he paid $1000 for a set of BC's and two years later if he added the $730 he could have had RCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Thats a steal for KW. I'ver pushed my KW pretty hard and have been very satisfied with everything except rebuild time. (Almost 2 months so far with a rebuild scheduled though them - they are almost local even...) Properly set up there is no reason to plan for bumps in the street more than stock except for ride height. Toss on KW and drink your drink, dont wear it. I'll say it again, pushed agressively they have been very rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I think he meant he paid $1000 for a set of BC's and two years later if he added the $730 he could have had RCE. ^Precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 ^without question. Kw is not in the same league as BC. Kw is far superior, not only in terms of valving, but also travel, which is often overlooked. I've been looking, but have been unable to find specs for most of these coilovers on travel. Do you have them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I love my BC's, 32 way dampening adjustments make night and day changes as you adjust. full soft rides much better than my ralliteks on stock stuts, before they were blown. It also rides better than my friend's gt with cobbs/koni's. And we both have aftermarket swaybars. i have preload set at factory 5mm, factory BC ride height, camber plates set just in from center, alignment to subaru factory spec, and 10 clicks from full soft. Daily driving, perfect setup, but so would a koni/spring combo (though less adjustability aside from dampening). $33k for suspension? worth more than the car brand new? lmaogfy ...and you drive on the same shitty MA roads I do. I was thinking BC vs Koni/STI/Swift/JDM springs. Although the BC's are far easier to install/uninstall/sell if I hate them. Judging by the rest of this thread BC dampers = shit and koni = awesome. Must be all that suspension voodoo :-/ What spring rates did you get on your BC? Does it bounce at the lowest damper settings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmx045 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 you're local to me, just swing by. foolio. the spring rates are whatever is listed on their site.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegacyDan Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 For the price on those KW's go KW. I think he meant he paid $1000 for a set of BC's and two years later if he added the $730 he could have had RCE. I knew the price was too good to be trure, price listed was excluding taxes working out at 1670 dollars approx with tax, ill see can i get them tax free through some guys i know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I've been looking, but have been unable to find specs for most of these coilovers on travel. Do you have them? I could be wrong, but I believe the travel for the T1's is 164mm front, 175mm rear. Once you account for the bumpstop, the effective travel is ~5-5.5". The effective travel of the BC's is around 2.75-3". The difference is considerable. What spring rates did you get on your BC? Does it bounce at the lowest damper settings? The BC's I had were the stock 6kg front, 8kg rear rates. Yes, it bounces at the lowest damper settings. The adjustment supposedly changes rebound and compression, but it seems to not change compression much, mainly rebound. The stock compression damping on the BC's is severely overdamped throughout the adjustment range IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkside Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Ive had bc for 2 yrs now. I find the rears to be great, the front are a lil bouncy once over 10 clicks. For everyday driving commute to work I have em on first soft setting for fronts and 15 clicks in the rear. Anything is better than awful factory suspension , the back of car would sink and handled like a boat. I got the konis at home, gonna due some epic springs for fronts and keep the bcs in the rear since I have no dislikes about back coilovers. More of a hybrid set up. But overall happy w bcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 bmx045 gave me a ride with his BC's. They are not anywhere close to as bad as some people would say. Actually for comfort over medium-crappy roads, it's just about like stock even with hard camber plates (Note I think the stock dampers are unnecessarily shit), except a whole lot less roll/dive/squat. If you could pull them apart and revalve them it could be much better. For the money it's a steal. Hard to justify spending more than twice as much for "brand" coilovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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