Go away, Toyota.

[red beast]

have you seen these locomotive hybrids both with batteries?

 

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/hybrid-locomotive-maker-loses-steam/

 

hybrid locomotive with regen braking

 

http://www.getransportation.com/rail/rail-products/locomotives/hybrid-locomotive.html

 

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/06/ges_hybrid_loco.php

 

GE unveiled a prototype hybrid locomotive at its Ecomagination event in Los Angeles last week. The 4,000 hp locomotive uses a set of sodium nickel chloride (Na-NiCl2) batteries to capture and store energy dissipated during dynamic braking, as well as an on-board fuel optimizer system.

 

The energy stored in the locomotive batteries will reduce fuel consumption and emissions by as much as 10% compared to most of the freight locomotives in use today. Railroads account for about 2.5% of national fuel usage in the US. In addition to reduced emissions, a hybrid will operate more efficiently in higher altitudes and up steep inclines.

 

Locomotives are electric drive vehicles—the diesel engines function as gensets to power the electric traction motors. Locos use dynamic braking - traction motors ceasing to act as motors and becoming alternators - to decelerate or to maintain speed on a downhill grade. Typically, a resistor is used to dissipate the electric power (about 7,000 hp per locomotive) as heat produced by the electric motor during dynamic braking.

 

In the hybrid, the energy storage system (ESS) is connected to the main DC link through an electronic converter controlled by an energy management system and associated vehicle system controls. The ESS provides supplemental power to the traction motor along with the power from the genset, and receives power during regenerative braking.

 

The hybrid battery system for a locomotive has to provide both high energy and high power. GE’s hybrid prototype has a power/energy (P/E) ratio of about two. By contrast, the Toyota Camry hybrid has a P/E ratio of 19, the GE/Orion V prototype hybrid transit bus a P/E ratio of about five, and the Sprinter plug-in hybrid prototype with SAFT Li-ion batteries a P/E ratio of about seven, according to GE.

 

Before the GE hybrid locomotive is offered commercially, the engineering team will continue work and analysis on the batteries and control systems on-board the locomotive. Following lab testing, GE will produce pre-production units for customer field trials.

 

 

 

it's the "prius" of the rail

 

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[Penguin]

^ Meh, not impressed. GE locomotives in general kind of suck.

[red beast]

like it or not Toyota started the hybrid revolution. with new tensions in the middle east our oil supply is being endangered again. the price of the barrel of oil went up, according to the media, 4%. at least a hybrid will cushion the blow.

 

 

as far as it helping subaru, i think it will help save subaru by helping them with hybrid technology. i hope the "blandness" of todays toyotas never cross over to subaru.

[Penguin]

No the first diesel electric submarine started it. I don't care if people want to buy them, I just don't have any interest at this point.

 

As for that GE locomotive, they have to figure out something because they have the slowest loading motors in the industry so maybe their hybrid locomotive will finally respond to throttle inputs in a timely manner. Nothing is more fun than pulling a 19,000 ton coal train from a dead stop on a grade and having your EMD engines making power and the GE's still deciding whether or not to make a load at all.

 

Too bad GE engines also don't hold the rail for shit either, and spend a lot of time slipping, dumping sand, and cutting power to the axles.

[red beast]

No the first diesel electric submarine started it. I don't care if people want to buy them, I just don't have any interest at this point.

 

As for that GE locomotive, they have to figure out something because they have the slowest loading motors in the industry so maybe their hybrid locomotive will finally respond to throttle inputs in a timely manner. Nothing is more fun than pulling a 19,000 ton coal train from a dead stop on a grade and having your EMD engines making power and the GE's still deciding whether or not to make a load at all.

 

Too bad GE engines also don't hold the rail for shit either, and spend a lot of time slipping, dumping sand, and cutting power to the axles.

 

 

 

interesting.

 

and bet most people thought that most locomotive were all the same.

 

 

maybe to need to mod them

[Penguin]

There are two major players in the North American freight locomotive market, General Electric and Electromotive Diesel (EMD). EMD up until recently had the largest share of the market, but after being sold by GM to an equity firm their R&D and marketing really started to suffer. Now they are owned by a subsidiary of Caterpillar, so we'll see what they do for new product innovations.

 

The GE engines use four stroke diesels with conventional turbochargers, and EMD uses two stroke diesels with a clutched gear driven turbocharger. Once the exhaust gasses are up to enough velocity to turn the turbo the EMD disengages the clutch, but prior to that it will make boost like a supercharger. Plus every time the piston moves up and down it is making power unlike a four stroke. So EMD's make tractive effort faster, and they use a better truck design that holds the rail better without as much slippage.

 

GE's are cheaper though, and get about 5-6% better fuel economy so railroads buy a lot of them, and now GE has more market share.

[LieutenantDan]

prius http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/f/c/9/fc96ad814da494dec61f5128a498e508.png train

[Penguin]

Of course not. Trains get far superior fuel economy.

[ehsnils]

Only thing that beats a train when it comes to tons/hp is freight ships.

 

And when you have trains on an electrified railroad you can design the locomotive to feed back the power into the electrical line instead, but it doesn't always work due to limitations in the distribution system. But it will do away with the need for batteries on board the train.

 

As for hybrid cars - I think that in many cases a small bank of batteries or capacitors would be sufficient - especially in city driving with a lot of stopping and starting. Every stop wastes energy, a start requires energy and aerodynamic drag isn't a concern. But on the highway it's different. So hybrid cars would be great in major cities while on the highways they are rather pointless unless it's a very hilly area.

[red beast]

Only thing that beats a train when it comes to tons/hp is freight ships.

 

And when you have trains on an electrified railroad you can design the locomotive to feed back the power into the electrical line instead, but it doesn't always work due to limitations in the distribution system. But it will do away with the need for batteries on board the train.

 

As for hybrid cars - I think that in many cases a small bank of batteries or capacitors would be sufficient - especially in city driving with a lot of stopping and starting. Every stop wastes energy, a start requires energy and aerodynamic drag isn't a concern. But on the highway it's different. So hybrid cars would be great in major cities while on the highways they are rather pointless unless it's a very hilly area.

 

actually the hills kill the prius's mpg.

going up a long hill uses more energy than what it can be replace on the downhill side.

 

basically the battery depletes and/or needs extra energy from ICE just to get up the hill. on the way down ICE turns off all the way down during regen to the battery.

 

 

flat highway terrain is the the best for high mpg.

 

 

for me in nj

in summer i can acheive 61 mpg on a long highway commute using cruise control.

 

stop and go traffic in summer around 52 mpg

 

stop and go traffic in the winter around 42 mpg. this due to ICE keeping warm and 10% loss due to ethonol. (52 mpg- 5.2 mpg = 46.8 mpg - ICE = 42 mpg)

 

 

by no means is the prius a perfect car. it's just the best for it's class of car for saving gas while still retaining utiltiy.

[ehsnils]

I wouldn't say that it makes perfect in hilly area, but compared to cars that doesn't regenerate it will be better.

 

A friend of mine drives the Toyota Aygo, and he had a loaner Prius when it was serviced and he didn't like it, but all to his own...

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENCARS/green-cars-photos/Toyota-aygo-green.jpg

Specified to 51 mpg. (Converted from UK mpg in this article: http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENCARS/Toyota-Aygo.htm )

 

And converted from toyota.se;

Highway: 58.8

City: 43.6

Mixed: 52.2

(Differences depends on driving pattern and loss in translation )

[red beast]

we fat americans don't get cars like that here.....yet.

 

 

here the aygo would be a sub-compact and the prius is a mid-sized car(on the low end of the scale).

 

my gen III prius gets a little better mileage and is bigger.

 

0-60 is 10 seconds in the prius. the aygo is slow at 14 seconds.

 

 

it's apples and oranges

[Penguin]

I'd rather just ride a motorcycle when the weather is decent to save fuel if it comes down to it. Then use an existing vehicle when weather is bad.

 

At least the bike can still be fun.