Dr. Zevil Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Some questions here that need to be answered.. Some have stated that the new GT brakes appear to have the same size rotors as found on the STi brembo package. The question is whether or not it's advantageous (if the rotors are similar sized) to upgrade to a brembo kit or should someone just look into some better calipers? Obviously brake lines are going to be an obvious upgrade when doing this but I wanted to focus striclty on the calipers and rotors. I could see saving some money by just upgrading to some new calipers and pads, but skipping the rotor upgrade. Perhaps Prodrive, Stoptech, Brembo, or someone will have calipers to fit those monsters. What do you guys think? On another note, will SS brake lines make a huge difference in brake performance? I want to add some calipers at least for performance and for looks. I love the way a nice set of HUGE calipers looks behind the rims. Call me silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatCQB Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 SS lines are less prone to expansion when the pressure builds up and that leads to a more proportional level of braking. With the pressures that come with hard braking during track/autox, I'm pretty confident it'll make a difference. I'm pretty indifferent about brakes. A set of good quality OE rotors are fine by me. Painting the calipers is a nice touch. I'd only put larger calipers if the performance requires them. Larger calipers is not always a good thing, it can lead to premature locking and ABS compatibility is an issue too. I wouldn't mind getting new calipers with the same stopping power if they were lighter than the stock ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 This is experience from other cars, but st. steel brakelines are an upgrade from stock lines, but in the area of braking "feel", not braking performance. On my past cars, it made the pressure feel more constant and linear as I went towards full braking force. This was especially true after repeated application as the brake fluid heated up and the rubber lines flexed more. The move to the st. steel lines meant no more flex, no matter how long or hard I was braking. Most recently, the lines were upgraded after (and separate) I had driven with larger calipers/rotors, and racing brake fluid (Motul 600). The feel of the brakes changed noticeably under heavy braking loads even with the other upgrades. Hope this helps... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 You will want to add calipers for looks, because as you know, the only way to increase braking effectiveness is to increase rotor size or get stickier tires. Calipers and lines (mostly the latter) can improve braking feel, something which is not to be underestimated as a function of braking performance. But as I understand it, the GT has very effective stoppers already, that feel better than pimped-out WRX brakes. The USDM STi's rotors are slightly larger than the Legacy GT's. Were you to upgrade to the STi Brembos, which are almost certainly available, as there are idiots who think the STi needs better brakes, you would run into tire sizing (width and offset in specific) issues. SS brake lines, in tandem with uprated fluid, makes brakes feel better. Pedal travel is usually reduced, which will improve feel. But you don't stop any shorter, because you have the same pads and rotors. If you will recall the Car & Driver big brake test, and the poor value vs. performance equation. The big brake kits looked cool, and resisted fade better, which would be of value if you were going to become a track monster, but they didn't necessarily stop the car in day to day driving that much better than the regular WRX brakes. I'll go you one better. A guy on R compounds and stock WRX brakes will stop a lot better than a guy with a big brake kit, and regular Z-rated max performance tires. Tires are the biggest factor in braking performance, then caliper size, then pad composition. Don't forget that the GT, though it gets a two-piston slider, sports a much larger caliper than the other two-piston Scoobies. Man, that was long...sorry. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatCQB Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='praedet']This is experience from other cars, but st. steel brakelines are an upgrade from stock lines, but in the area of braking "feel", not braking performance. On my past cars, it made the pressure feel more constant and linear as I went towards full braking force. This was especially true after repeated application as the brake fluid heated up and the rubber lines flexed more. The move to the st. steel lines meant no more flex, no matter how long or hard I was braking. Most recently, the lines were upgraded after (and separate) I had driven with larger calipers/rotors, and racing brake fluid (Motul 600). The feel of the brakes changed noticeably under heavy braking loads even with the other upgrades. Hope this helps... :)[/quote] praedet, does the racing brake fluid make the car brake less smoothly? I was wondering if it would make it less comfortable to drive day-to-day. I can see racing brake fluid being denser leading to the brakes being more sensitive. [quote name='gtguy']You will want to add calipers for looks, because as you know, the only way to increase braking effectiveness is to increase rotor size or get stickier tires. [/quote] Adding larger calipers can't be just for looks. A 4/6-pot brembo over a 2-pot OE caliper (on the same size rotor) will change braking performance no matter how you argue it. More friction material, more surface area, more braking efficency. I'll agree with you if you mean changing to bigger rotors will automatically change to bigger calipers too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I did not notice any side effects to the brake fluid change out. The gain is fade resistance. If your brakes have ever faded in any of the three ways, you will not want it to happen again. So..... the only bad part of brake fluid change out is bleeding all the old fluid out and getting the new fluid in.(without air) Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatCQB Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I'm not sure I see how the fluid can improve the fade resistance of the pads/rotor. If anything, the fluid would improve the efficency of the pressure transfer and lead to the pads fading earlier. I'm under the assumption that fade resistance is dependent on friction material, rotor and the heat generated by pressure over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zevil Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 Nice! Thanks for the info. I guess in most cases then I would just be adding those things for feel and looks. I don't want to paint my calipers simply because I have a feeling that it looks "cheap". I know that the GT has some pretty nice brakes on it as is. This is definitely a tougher choice since I know that I will not be doing any autocross or tracking this car. I am definitely into "feel" mods, but perhaps the money would be spent better elsewhere. So would slotted rotors be an improvement? Or in my case (no autocross etc.) would it just be a waste? I love the idea of being able to literally stop-on-a-dime, but definitely would not be able to throw down the amount of money required to buy a brembo kit or anything worthwhile. It's kinda nice to not have a whole lot of areas to "upgrade" the GT. Seems like everything is pretty rock solid with regards to performance. So even if I switched to more pistons per caliper, I wouldn't see a big difference? Even in the rear? I was under the assumption that I would. Jeez, this GT is making it hard for me to spend my money in frivilous ways :lol: A set of brembo brakes (gold) sure would look good with my regal blue pearl wagon :D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 All right, here is a website with all three types listed and explained. [url]http://www.se-r.net/car_info/brake_performance.html[/url] I personally have experienced pad fade and fluid fade. For the lazy "Fluid fade is caused by the boiling of the brake fluid in the calipers. This produces bubbles in the brake system. Since bubbles are compressible, this makes for a soft spongy pedal. In worse cases, the pedal can plunge to the floor with very little slowing! Fluid fade can be avoided by running a high grade racing type brake fluid and/or frequent changes of brake fluid. Also if you change the pads before they get super thin, the remaining friction material will help insulate the calipers from the heat. Some people have had some success with having swaintech spray thermal barrier coating on the backing plate of the pads to help isolate the heat but I have never tried this. Fluid fade usually has a gradual onset." That website also has recommendations on curing each type of fade. There are other references out there, but I knew this one had it, so here you go! Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Good caliper paint will protect the rotors from corrosion. But good stuff, not cheap stuff. Just go with an understated color like black if you don't want them to stand out. Slotted rotors help, if you are racing. Other than that, they are "bling". At times they can be noisy also.... Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='CombatCQB']Adding larger calipers can't be just for looks. A 4/6-pot brembo over a 2-pot OE caliper (on the same size rotor) will change braking performance no matter how you argue it. More friction material, more surface area, more braking efficency. I'll agree with you if you mean changing to bigger rotors will automatically change to bigger calipers too.[/quote] I'm with gtguy on all points. :o They mostly ARE just for looks. Tires are the key to any car's braking. Sticker tireds = shorter distances. Fluid and SS lines will improve feel, nothing more. Oh and painting calipers is RICE!!!11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 For street driving, tires are infinitely more important than these brake upgrades, but ... As soon as you start putting the brakes through repeated high-speed high braking applications, I can bet the larger heat dissipation of any of the methods will help! So auto-crossing might require some upgrades. As for painting calipers being rice, again, the original reason for the paint, corrosion resistance, wasn't rice. Painting an OEM civic caliper red underneath 21" rims is. Why does wilwood paint their calipers black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 And Drift Monkey, did you even read my post about fluid fade? I encountered fluid fade in the middle of the desert. I was testing out some engine mods on my car and after 4 stops from 80-100 mph, I didn't stop anymore. Fluid is a braking performance upgrade, for repeated high-speed brake application it is a must, and should be first based on a cost/performaces analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zevil Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 Cool, thanks for clearing all that up for me. As it sounds I will probably not touch the brakes except for some high qual brake fluid and maybe some SS lines. I will have to wait and see what the OEM feel is from the beginning though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 More references from a quick google [url]http://www.h-e-l.co.uk/HEL_Performance_Brake_Doctor_Brake_Fade.htm[/url] [url]http://www.guyons.com/racing_tips10.html[/url] (This one says 2, but there are three) [url]http://www.startinglineproducts.com/Techarticles/brakefade.html[/url] [url]http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakefluid1a.htm[/url] Sorry about all the posts, Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zevil Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='praedet']More references from a quick google [url]http://www.h-e-l.co.uk/HEL_Performance_Brake_Doctor_Brake_Fade.htm[/url] [url]http://www.guyons.com/racing_tips10.html[/url] (This one says 2, but there are three) [url]http://www.startinglineproducts.com/Techarticles/brakefade.html[/url] [url]http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakefluid1a.htm[/url] Sorry about all the posts, Ted[/quote] Don't apologize.. very informative.. I will get a chance to read all your references later.. (while I am not at work ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote]Why does wilwood paint their calipers black?[/quote] Or brembos gold? The point is, the facotry rotors are fine as is, and I have never had to paint my calipers to prevent corrosion. My 1989 Accord rotors have never been painted and show no signs of corrosion, so I don't see why I would need to do so on my Legacy? For auto-x, I'd likely stick to just race pads, SSlines, and nice brake fluid. I'm not turning mine into a dedicated track car, so I see no need for the overkill big brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatCQB Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Thanks praedet. That makes sense since it's creating air in the lines. I'll have to keep that in mind. As for painting calipers, I agree with praedet, I want my legacy to be a sleeper, so I don't think I'll go with any fancy colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='CombatCQB'] Adding larger calipers can't be just for looks. A 4/6-pot brembo over a 2-pot OE caliper (on the same size rotor) will change braking performance no matter how you argue it. More friction material, more surface area, more braking efficency. I'll agree with you if you mean changing to bigger rotors will automatically change to bigger calipers too.[/quote] You might gain a couple of feet, Combat, but nothing particularly significant. Part of why people notice a stopping improvement when they change calipers, is because 4 and 6-piston (stand back, boys...) usually come with more aggressive pads. If you were to put the identical pad on the 2-pot as the calipers with the greater number of pots, braking performance wouldn't be all that different in everyday driving. The increased calipers would feel better. My Subaru 4-pots on my WRX feel great. But pad for pad, if all things are equal, until you increase brake torque (vs. friction) or tire grip, you aren't going to be shaving all that much braking distance by just adding calipers. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSB Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Cool, fluid fade may explain the vibration I've been feeling from the brakes after driving in the hills when the breaks must be getting red hot. !0K service is coming up, so I'll see what they can do at the garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Some addendums, gtguy pretty much got everything otherwise. 4-pot vs. 2-pot: There was an easy way to test this on the older legacies - the STi iron 4-pots would bolt on straight with no modification, and they were fitted to the same size rotor. Benefits: they were actually a pound lighter than the 2-pots, despite being rather heavy. Fade was nearly non-existant with good DBA rotors, metal lines and good pads and brake fluids. Stopping from very high speeds was very consistant and straight - the 2-pot calipers did not grip as consistantly side to side, so there was a bit of wander. Cons: Day-to-day braking performance did not improve due to calipers alone. Pads were more expensive. Now, let's look at no.1 con - no improvement in performance. Why? Simple, braking takes in several factors, and one of those is brake pad swept area(size of brake pad on the rotor). The pad area between the 2-pots and 4-pots did not change significantly. So if you did a back to back test of the 4-pots and 2-pots with exactly the same setup for everything else but the calipers, they'd stop in the same distance. The extra's come into play at the track. Now, the current Legacy GT has a new, bigger 2-pot caliper with bigger pads on bigger rotors. On a lighter car. What this adds up to is more than adequete braking performance - even at the track - on the stock setup. If you are experiencing fade, upgrading the lines and fluids would be your first step, then stepping up to some good pads. Rotors would be next. Calipers would be absolutely last, the bang for buck is *very* small. (they look good, tho...) You may also put yourself out of some racing classes by doing such an upgrade (calipers) as well. One thing to look out for is pad/rotor matching. I tried some highly rated pads that were a combination of stopping performance/longevity, and found out that the DBA rotors were *to good* for them. The rotors were built for tracking, which meant somewhat soft (not in stopping) track pads were assumed. The pads were not soft enough, and it was glazing the rotors when pushing it hard. But, back on topic - calipers for the GT would be mainly for bling (I've been guilty of that in the past...) and as a last step. Not a first one. Take the new GT out for a fling in the mountains and really get into the braking, and you'll be pleasantly surprised at the stock braking levels, in contrast to the previous legacy... Cheers, Paul Hansen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.