gathermewool Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 97 Subaru Legacy GT 203k miles Auto Tranny RTS 5W-40 W/ OEM filter On most starts, regardless of temp the normal piston slap is very evident, and doesn't seem to ever fully disappear, but does diminish after the engine has been at normal operating temp for a bit. From what I've read, this is completely normal, and hasn't worried me. For cold starts (<40F,) a new noise appears, which does worry me a little. After maybe 5-10 seconds of normal high idle with piston slap present, a tapping/ticking (can't quite describe it correctly) sound is evident. It's most noticeable while the engine is still cold during engine braking. It's definitely loud enough to concern me, but not so much since it does seem to slowly subside as the engine warms up, fully goes away when the coolant is >160F, and does not return until the next cold start. It goes away when I hit the gas, even slightly, to accelerate or stop engine-braking. I thought this was the strangest symptom, but I'm sure it'll stand out to some one here. I've used everything from Castrol GTX HM 10W-30 to M1 HM 10W-30 to my current run of RTS 5W-40 over the past couple of winters, none of which seemed to make any difference. It doesn't occur at all during the warmer months so I can't tell for sure if the frequency, severity has worsened; however, I do think I'm noticing it more this year, so maybe it has. Any ideas would be great. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I have a similar noise with my car and it never happened before this winter. The past years my car has been in oregon for the winter and this year it is in wisconsin. A mild winter in oregon vs an extreme cold winter in wisconsin. I was told not to worry about the noise it was just because of the extreme cold engine trying to warm up. Unless it is something that just has started recently i think its just another subi sound lol. Hope this helps a little -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 If you are able to determine where it comes from it would be helpful. It may be a valve lifter that has decided to get tired. I think that you have the hydraulic lifters, but I'm not sure. In that case it isn't critical, just annoying. But check around since there are other things that can cause this. Everything from a cracked vacuum hose to a leak in the exhaust. Best thing is to get a piece of hose and put one end to your ear and then move around the other end in the engine compartment trying to listen where the sound is most prominent and start from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 I've been searching, but I'm still not sure if the 97 LGT has HLA. I found one site saying that HLA were introduced in '96 for the EJ22, but nothing about the EJ25. Another was an auto forum where some one asked if their 99 OB had them, and the answer received was no. I found a sound clip that's pretty close to how mine sounds. If you notice, you'll hear the piston slap when he revs, then a second noise when he lets off the throttle - THIS is what I'm talking about. Mine is as bad as his when cold, but sounds and runs perfectly normally when it's up to temp. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p98AqJhH9Qs]Subaru Piston Slap[/ame] '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz98gt Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I have a tapping/ticking sound from my EJ22 (98 LGTL with replaced motor), and checked the VIN on the engine. Mine's from 5/97, and it still has mech. lash adjusters; I have yet to adjust to see if they're off (too damn cold), but they might be a cause of a tick. That's for the 2.2, not sure about your 2.5 though. Another cause could be the injectors going bad. I'm not sure the details of an injector failure, but I do know that a symptom is an obnoxious ticking...I wasn't able to see the video, but I'll find another computer and take a look to see exactly what noise you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 I thought the LGT was 2.5L, only. I've never heard of a 2.2L LGTL. That's very strange that yours has MLA. Of course you can't always believe what you read on the internet, but the site I looked at said HLA were introduced in '96. hmmm As far as injectors, they seem to be making the same normal ticking sound they've always made, hot or cold. Unfortunately this only happens when it's cold out. By the time I get to the shop the engine is up to temp and sounding normal... '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz98gt Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I got a chance to listen to the sound clip, this sounds exactly like mine except way way louder. That's the tick. And yep mine is a 2.2 but only because somewhere along the way the motor was replaced. My guess is the headgasket went on the 2.5 that was originally in it, and the cheap mechanics probably told the old owner to just swap the engine and not put in the better gaskets. So I lost out I guess But I'm sure of my motor being from May of 1997 and it does have MLAs (and LGTL is the limited haha). Yeah I continuously hear the tick nowadays in the cold; didn't notice anything in the summer, and if I did, it was very subtle. I'm not sure how to differentiate between the two sounds (injectors and LAs), so the extent of my help might be limited. BUT, I'm going to try higher grade gasoline and some gumout for a while and see if that eliminates my tick, and possibly narrow down things if it does cure the injector tick (like I said, I'm going somewhat blind into this not knowing the mechanics behind the injectors). But the first thing I'd do in your EJ25 is pop the heads and check to see if you've got HLAs or MLAs. Just don't do it when it's hot, unless you'll end up with alotta oil everywhere haha. If you do have MLAs, I've got the lash specs for a 2.2 and 2.5 maybe (I can't remember what years, if any, were under that category). Happy hunting I'll keep you posted on my success too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Ah, the limited...haha. THAT makes sense now. I thought you put a 2.5GT badge on your L Unless you're pinging I wouldn't worry about the higher octane. Against my better judgment I've tried it a few times with out any difference noted, including gas mileage. Regane is a good choice, though. Techron and Redline are good, as well. I won't have time for a little while, but as soon as I can I'll pop the heads off and see what I see. If it's not too much of a PITA I might remove the entire rocker assembly and clean out the lifters (if they're HLA.) For now, though, the problem isn't that bad, and goes away when it warms up so there's no real rush to get at this before Spring. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amp27 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I have a similar noise with my car and it never happened before this winter. The past years my car has been in oregon for the winter and this year it is in wisconsin. A mild winter in oregon vs an extreme cold winter in wisconsin. I was told not to worry about the noise it was just because of the extreme cold engine trying to warm up. Unless it is something that just has started recently i think its just another subi sound lol. Hope this helps a little my car start like a gem in last weeks weather. -36 degrees. only has a small squeak from the belts. so idk if this the noise are normal or not. just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz98gt Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I should probably lose the 2.5 badge, don't want to be posing for those that actually have one that's survived. stupid headgaskets :/yeah i want to avoid working in the cold for as long as possible too haha. spring can't get here soon enough, but my guess is the problem gets resolved with the warmer weather. we just have to wait and see i guess? i'll forgo the 91 too there isn't any knock as far as i can tell.hmm...-36 is a tough one. without a tick. interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 my car start like a gem in last weeks weather. -36 degrees. only have a small speak from the belts. so idk if this the noise are normal or not. just saying LIES! I should probably lose the 2.5 badge, don't want to be posing for those that actually have one that's survived. stupid headgaskets :/ yeah i want to avoid working in the cold for as long as possible too haha. spring can't get here soon enough, but my guess is the problem gets resolved with the warmer weather. we just have to wait and see i guess? i'll forgo the 91 too there isn't any knock as far as i can tell. hmm...-36 is a tough one. without a tick. interesting... You rock taht 2.5GT badge proudly, my friend! IMO, she deserves that badge of honor after so many years of faithful (almost) service. It's not her fault the heart transplant was botched. I know for sure the problem will resolve itself when the temps start rising. I'm hoping to get at it in the hobby shop some time before this happens. I'm loathe to start screwing around with things I'm not very experienced with in a car that runs just fine, albeit noisily. There's no better way to learn than on an older car, though, I guess... '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amp27 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 LIES! how is this a lie. i have done it. just gotta check the anti freeze. if it aint froze your good to go. couple secs of the turn of the car and this warm it up worst ive had is slushy looking anti freeze. took like 10 secs for the starter get it rolling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 I was just joking, bud. A bit of a jealousy thing that your car "start like a gem." '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz98gt Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 worst ive had is slushy looking anti freeze. took like 10 secs for the starter get it rolling mmm like a slush puppie for cars tick has improved; just ran some gumout through her a couple days ago, and the noise will hang around for a little bit while the engine's warming up. my guess is it's injectors, but i will definitely check the valve lash in the spring only cuz it's MLAs. A little knowledge of what's going on under the heads never hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 mmm like a slush puppie for cars tick has improved; just ran some gumout through her a couple days ago, and the noise will hang around for a little bit while the engine's warming up. my guess is it's injectors, but i will definitely check the valve lash in the spring only cuz it's MLAs. A little knowledge of what's going on under the heads never hurts. I put a bottle of Techron in a couple of days ago. I'm not one to believe in additives, but we'll see. From what I've read Gumout with Regane, Techron and Redline are pretty good. Some say it's good based on butt dyno results, but others have chimed in about these additives constituents, saying they'd make pretty good cleaning agents...We'll see. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 I have a tapping/ticking sound from my EJ22 (98 LGTL with replaced motor), and checked the VIN on the engine. Mine's from 5/97, and it still has mech. lash adjusters; I have yet to adjust to see if they're off (too damn cold), but they might be a cause of a tick. That's for the 2.2, not sure about your 2.5 though. Another cause could be the injectors going bad. I'm not sure the details of an injector failure, but I do know that a symptom is an obnoxious ticking...I wasn't able to see the video, but I'll find another computer and take a look to see exactly what noise you're talking about. I finally found my Haynes Manual, which states that the '97 2.5L has mechanically adjustable lifters, so no HLA. I've never been a huge fan of additives, although I've tried a few fuel additives just for kicks - no oil additives, ever. I can't remember when last I used it - I'm not sure if I used it last winter when the ticking was present or not - but I gave in and bought a bottle of Techron good for 20gal tanks. I added it and filled the tank fully. Wouldn't ya know, the rattle/tick/whatever has completely gone away. I'm not assuming it was the Techron, but come on! The weather hasn't gotten any warmer, and the ticking was there EVERY startup before the add. I hate to be a koolaid drink, but damn was that one heck of a coincidence otherwise... '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz98gt Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Techron eh? I've never seen/heard of it before this thread (I'm 17 cut me a little slack haha)...what's it designed to do? Might be a stupid question but worth asking, just in case I wanna try some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 It's a fuel system cleaner containing polyether amine (PEA), a cleaner. I don't like to regularly use additives - additives in top tier fuel are usually good enough for me - but some times I give in and buy some on sale. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Oil additives can help in some cases - like when the engine is rattling, but be aware that you also have an impact on the viscosity of the oil when you use them. But it's still an easy way to see if things changes when you add an additive. It may give you some clues to what may be the fault if there is a change or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 IMO, oil additives are never necessary. A decent oil used at a decent interval will keep your engine clean and happy. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz98gt Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 what's your idea of a decent oil? i've been running castrol high mileage 5w-30 for the past couple months and haven't really noticed anything except a harsh idle; but then again, that might come with the cold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 what's your idea of a decent oil? i've been running castrol high mileage 5w-30 for the past couple months and haven't really noticed anything except a harsh idle; but then again, that might come with the cold That depends on how you drive and how long you plan to run it. In my mind, if you change your oil every 3-5k, ANY API SM-rated oil is fine. While Castrol HM wouldn't be my first choice, it's perfectly fine. Unless you have issues with seal leakage you don't necessarily need a HM oil. I started with Mobil 1 HM, and then tried cheaper HM versions like Castrol and Vavoline and noticed no differences in fuel consumption. Regardless of the oil type, I'll burn some if I drive aggressively. I usually drive like a granny, since it's my DD, so oil consumption is near zero. IMHO, a decent oil is that which isn't consumed (in your car for your application,) and you feel comfortable with. While any SM-rated oil will suffice, there are benefits - like only having to change your oil once/year or 10k+ miles - to running a better oil. FWIW, I'm using a group III (highly processed mineral oil that can be marketed as synthetic) made by Shell: Rotella T6 5W-40. I plan to run this to 6k+, do a UOA and, if there are no issues, run it out to 10k next time. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz98gt Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yeah I was considering the Rotella or some synthetic, but my dad steered me clear saying it wasn't worth the extra cash. Now that you mention seal leakage, I did notice a small puddle (quarter-half dollar size) of oil the other day after running a little bit in the cold and sitting. I haven't seen any oil since I cleaned out the oil pan and replaced the gasket, and when I went under there was oil...well...in different places. And it's never been like that, so maybe there's an issue somewhere that I need to look into. I've been checking the oil meticulously though, and there seems to be no loss, which is great news! I'll go under when the weather warms up to check any seals, and then I can change the oil. How do you do a used oil analysis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted January 16, 2010 Author Share Posted January 16, 2010 Some oils have better base stocks (80% of the oil) and additive packages (the other 20%.) A better oil's base stock will less prone to breaking down. The additives help to neutralize acids, clean, disperse and transport contaminants to the filter better as well. This will mostly mean nothing, and your dad's statement will be true, if you don't extend your oil change intervals appropriately. You'll have ZERO gain if you spend twice as much on oil and run the same interval. The anti-wear properties, while they may be better in a more expensive oil, won't justify paying extra money. If you want to change your oil every 3k, run the cheapest brand name mineral oil on sale and cast your worry in another direction; you will never have an oil related issue (unless it's mechanical ; ) ). If, however, you have the guts to expand your horizons, try a better oil and run it out to 7500+. Rotella can go for so much longer in a properly running motor. A lot of people like Blackstone labes, but there's also wear check and a few others. They'll all just about the same, with acceptable variance in numbers, at least from what I've seen. Choose whom ever you like, but if you choose blackstone-labs.com, the basic analysis will run you $22.50. This will give you basic information about the oil, as well as wear numbers in part per million (ppm.) If you plan to extend your intervals a very good indicator of how much acid-neutralizing additive is left (alkalinity reserve) is the Total Base Number (TBN,) which is $10 more. For the cost of an oil change you'll more than likely find out that you can double what you've been doing - assuming you change your oil every 3k. Hell, I was a 3ker not to long ago, but am now doing 7k in my STI and 10k in my Legacy with Rotella, backed up by UOA. '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 It's not entirely true - synthetic oils have a better viscosity range than mineral oils, which makes them better for use in extreme weather. And it's more to oil than just the breakdown of additives. It's also about how much contaminants that are diluted into the oil and a longer interval means that more contaminants are absorbed into the oil. And those contaminants are then sometimes deposited in various locations in the engine. Think of the black coke you may see in some engines. That can clog up some parts - especially thin holes or fall out on sensitive parts like the turbo. Additives can't take care of everything. And it also matters how you drive. If you are going to do a track day it may even be a good idea to change before and after, but at least after. Things are running a lot hotter when you do track racing. So stick to the oil change intervals specified regardless of which oil you use. It will be cheap compared to a blown engine. Check out here too: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1664482#post1664482 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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