Driver72 Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Okay, as many know, one of the first things I hated about the LGT was our BRAKES. They simply stink. No feel, too mushy, and they just plain don't stop the car well. I've kind of accepted them as of recent, but then I read a letter in the just released May issue of MotorTrend. Some dude wrote in to them wondering if the 142 foot stopping distance from 60 mph was a typo, stating Subaru makes great stuff so that seemed really bad. The editor responsed, "The number is accurate. Worse yet is the Legacy's 100-0 braking of 416 feet!!!" They said the specs came from their Car of the Year contender, and they want to test another Legacy GT in the future to see if it was just that car. I'd like to see another test of the car, but any of us could call them and tell them NO, no it's not just that test car!! 416 feet from 100 mph is horrible. True, I've changed my tires to Pirelli P Zero Nero's which surely helps, but the brakes still suck and still lack bite and feel. No excuses needed. SO, which brake pads should I go with? And would High Po brake fluid help too, even if I keep the stock lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hawk HP+, Endless SS-S, Carbotech... Fluid? Super ATE Blue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hawk HP+, Endless SS-S, Carbotech... Fluid? Super ATE Blue! Endless SS-Y if you want more bite than the SS-S.. the SS-M has the lower bite of all 3, but the heat capacity is the highest of all three. Carbotech is like SS-S. Hawk HP+ is around that range as well. Not sure what Pagid has in store. Not familar of what Cobb uses. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Can you use Endless SS-Y in the winter? I don’t want to change my pads every year with my tires. Or is this just the best way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 SS-Y can go as low as 30F.. so I guess a few stops before hitting the main roads will get them warmed up enough, or a little bit of left foot braking action will do it. I have driven similar pads and all it takes is like a few seconds of warm up using left-foot braking to get them warm. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I love my Carbotech Bobcats on a dif. car, and they dust very little... (no noise) As far as fluids, I have used Motul 600 the most, never had any problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eamiller Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I blame the RE-92s 99% for this.. With such large rotors and nice two piston calipers, the car shoudn't have any problem stopping.. Of course, pads do help on the feel and the fade of the system.. I don't think the stock system is all that bad, except for a touch too much dead travel at the top.. Only a little worse than my Integra with SS lines.. Can't match the bite of the EBC green stuff pads though in comparison.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 Did you guys turn your rotors before installing the new pads. I have only 2700 miles on my LGT. Would I need to turn my rotors if I put on the new pads? And again, what about High Po fluid in the stock lines? Is it worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 only time when you need to turn them is if you warped them or really got some super hard track pads that you smashed the brakes on. Your car is too new to have the rotors turned. If you go Endless Pads, the SS series do not need bedding. If you go with Hawk or Carbotech, you will need to bed the pads. There will/should be a set of instructions on how to bed brake pads if you buy a set of Carbotech Bobcats. If you still have stock fluid that hasn't been boiled, you can wait on the fluid. People should change out their brake fluid every 30,000 miles or every year (to ensure maximum braking). If you boiled your fluid (and you'll know when the brake feels mushy, but the car stops the same distance with the same speed), then most likely your fluid is boiled and it's time for a flush. ATE Super Blue/Yellow brake fluid is the bang for the buck for street use. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Can't match the bite of the EBC green stuff pads though in comparison.. Man, EBC is on the bottom of my list of pads. I would go back to OEM over EBC green. But most likely I would never go back to stock Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I love my Carbotech Bobcats on a dif. car, and they dust very little... (no noise) As far as fluids, I have used Motul 600 the most, never had any problems... Overkill for street use for a fluid is the Castrol SRF ($90/bottle) !!!!!! I like the Carbotechs, the brake dust is red Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 Oh man...really. I was leaning towards the Carbotechs Bobcats, but don't know if I want red brake dust on my hyperblack wheels. One of the reasons for going hyperblack was because it hides the charcoal color brake dust REALLY well. But reddish color brake dust??? Say it ain't so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 You wont notice the brake dust since it's minimal, and as long as you spray the wheels down with water before they sit too long, you'll be fine. The red dust will just look like you drove through a barren field of red clay. It wont be as bad as you think. If you looked at this pic: http://www.salazar-racing.com/images/pic153.jpg I am sure you can't see the brake dust as there is over 2 months worth on those wheels PLUS the two days on the track with them using Carbotech Bobcats. Carbotech Panther XP9 (track pads) are black dust. The Endless SS series Pads are light grey colored dust. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 Keefe, why is it necessary to spray down the with water "before they sit too long" Does the red brake dust "eat" away or stain the wheels? I noticed on Carbotech's website, they offer "custom" brakes. Wonder if they could make the Carbotech Bobcats in black instead of red? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 If you still have stock fluid that hasn't been boiled, you can wait on the fluid. People should change out their brake fluid every 30,000 miles or every year (to ensure maximum braking). If you boiled your fluid (and you'll know when the brake feels mushy, but the car stops the same distance with the same speed), then most likely your fluid is boiled and it's time for a flush. ATE Super Blue/Yellow brake fluid is the bang for the buck for street use. Keefe Man, it's scary how alike we think. A BMW racing friend turned me on to Super Blue. Great stuff. Alternate yellow or blue, so to facilitate the whole flushing business. Pads are fine, but if the stock rubber is still on the car, braking distances aren't going to change all that much. P Zero Neros are a good start. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted April 1, 2005 Author Share Posted April 1, 2005 Yes, as I stated, once my 1K break in was complete, I put Pirelli P Zero Neros on (at 1005 miles). But our stock brakes still suck. I need more bite, more feel, and better stopping distances. It's sad to say, but I feel my minivan stops better. It's brakes definitely FEEL better than the LGT's. I don't know if I've owned a car in the last 10 years which had brakes that feel worse than the LGT's. I would hope this would be A-1 first priority for the 2006 LGT... put better brake pads on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Keefe, why is it necessary to spray down the with water "before they sit too long" Does the red brake dust "eat" away or stain the wheels? I noticed on Carbotech's website, they offer "custom" brakes. Wonder if they could make the Carbotech Bobcats in black instead of red? I wouldnt worry about the brake dust that much, the Carbotechs dont dust that much. Contact a vendor like my sponsor ( http://www.tireswap.com ) and order a set in custom black.. see if it's doable, last time I checked, I think they mean about custom brakes is taking your old backing plates of the brakes and put on a Carbotech compound that you want on it. If you dont want that redness and all that hoop-jumping, the Endless pads that I have (SS-M) are soo great, it's amazing that they are dust FREE after some really hard braking for these past two weeks. If you want a larger/harder bite, get the SS-S (also super low dust). As for the brake dust sitting on the wheels too long, yea, the brake dust will eventually eat up the clearcoat on the wheels. Same goes for the stupid road salt from the winter driving as well (as it ate up some spots of clearcoat on the lip of my 5Zigen wheels already, booo, time to clean them up and wax them to keep them looking nice). It sucks when it you can't wash the car for month or two with the road salt just eating it away. THe heat from the brakes from on and off driving just bakes the brake dust on the rim, making it really hard to clean. Most of the time, I just rinse the wheels with water and the brake dust just comes off.. (dont even need soap) and just wipe the wheel dry with a paper towel or something. I'll try to post up some pics of what happens when you leave brake dust on a rim too long on a new thread under wheels and tires section tomorrow. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Yes, as I stated, once my 1K break in was complete, I put Pirelli P Zero Neros on (at 1005 miles). But our stock brakes still suck. I need more bite, more feel, and better stopping distances. It's sad to say, but I feel my minivan stops better. It's brakes definitely FEEL better than the LGT's. I don't know if I've owned a car in the last 10 years which had brakes that feel worse than the LGT's. I would hope this would be A-1 first priority for the 2006 LGT... put better brake pads on it. It's just the tires really. If you can hit the ABS, it means that you have plenty of braking power to lock up the wheels. It's the tires that can't handle the braking power. If you want proof, goto an empty road, take out the fuse for the ABS under the dash, and start doing some "harder" braking exercises. You'll find out that you have plenty of brakes to lock up. Tires is really where its at (as it's the tire's grip that dictates the stopping power.. same goes doing burnouts, it's all about negative and positive acceleration and tire grip).. oh yea, dont forget to put the fuse back in when you are done with the testing. Practice Threshold braking (maximum tire grip before lockup) and you will shorten braking distance. FOR EXPERIENCED DRIVERS like myself, I actually let up on the brakes just enough to get the maximum braking power that the tires can handle. Typically ABS is there for control to slow down enough and still have the control to steer around the object, not shorten brake distance. Right now, the brakes are strong enough where my R-compound radials still lock up just a little if I brake SUPER HARD (like face-planting my passenger into the dash board). Falken Azenis the ABS barely comes on. I am sure if I had a set of SS-Y pads, the car would bite 25% harder. Here are some graphs from http://www.endlessusa.com on their compounds: SS-Y http://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico5.jpg SS-S (similar to Carbotech Bobcats) http://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico4.jpg SS-M http://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico3.jpg CC-X (light track pads) http://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico7.jpg Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 and here are the specs for Carbotech pads that I had run on my WRX. CARBOTECH PANTHER XP9 (1109): Another iteration of our successful Panther compound series, 1109 offers even higher initial bite, higher friction coefficient (.6+), and higher fade resistance (1400+F) than 1108 compound, yet still maintains the rotor friendliness and streetability that has made the ceramic-metallic based Panther line so popular. This compound is intended for expert - instructor level HPDE drivers as well as upper level regional and national road-racing (ITA, ITS, Spec Miata, SSC, SSB, FF Cobra, etc) Panther XP9 has already won multiple SCCA regional and national championships in 2003, its first year of release. Not recommended as a daily-driving street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. CARBOTECH PANTHER XP8 (1108): A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range (250F to 1350F). Outstanding initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction (0.58-0.60), excellent modulation and release characteristics, extremely high fade resistance, very rotor friendly and excellent wear rates. Excellent for ITA, ITB, Spec-RX7, etc race cars. Perfect for intermediate - advanced track/HPED use with R-compound tires, but still can be easily driven to and from the track. Not recommended as a daily-driving street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. Carbotech Bobcat (1521) : Carbotech Bobcat (1521), the much anticipated replacement for our heralded Super Street F. Like our Panther line of compounds, Bobcat is a ceramic based friction material offering practically zero rotor damage. Bobcat offers outstanding performance when cold, very low dusting, and low noise with an excellent initial bite. Friction coefficient is .45 over it’s operating range of ambient temp to 900F. Bobcat is suitable for street, SCCA Solo 2 and Prosolo applications. Bobcat is not recommended for on-track driving schools or club racing. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny5 Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Xenonk, I'm also looking at the Endless pads. What is the main difference between the SS-S and the SS-M? I don't race or track my LGT, its my daily driver. I want a pad thats better than the stock since I'm not happy with the way it handels. I'm looking for a pad that isn't noisy and without excessive dust. The stock pads dust way too much, especially since they suck. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eamiller Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Man, EBC is on the bottom of my list of pads. I would go back to OEM over EBC green. But most likely I would never go back to stock Keefe Apparently you've never driven on Honda OEM pads before.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Either SS-S or SS-M will work for you. If you look at the charts above, you can see the difference. One has a harder bite than the other (SS-S > SS-M) while the trade off is pedal feel, temperature range, slightly longer durability, and lower dusting (SS-M > SS-S). I doubt you will get your pads that hot anyways, so SS-S would be a better choice in performance really for lower speeds/less braking applications, but with a hard bite when you need it. If you dont want ANY brake dust at all, go with SS-M. I am just amazed how I am really beating on the SS-Ms and they are creating practically zero dusting. In my daily drive, I do about 10 times worth of 60 to 70 mph to 15 mph stops with 7/10ths braking effort. It's been two weeks and 2 autocrosses, I took my figure and ran it off the wheel's lip.. the only thing that I had was clay on my fingers from the dried up patches of rain-runoff from the roads and dried up on the rim. The wheels are still BLING. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Apparently you've never driven on Honda OEM pads before.. Used Brembo, Bendix, Hawk, and Carbotech replacements over OEM Honda pads. I went through my fair share of Hondas (1988 Legend, 1993 Legend, 1993 Civic, 1996 Accord, 1997 Prelude, 2000 Accord and about 30 other civics that I install, test, and bed brakes for customers).. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny5 Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 How do they handle the winter and cold weather? I don't want to have to do left foot braking or worry about warming them up before hitting the highway. So far I've narrowed my search to: CarboTech Bobcat Hawk HPS Endless SS-S Endless SS-M Endless vita nuova But if the SS-M can take cold weather, we may have a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Honda compounds arent NEARLY as bad as the subaru compound. I agree that the brakes lack bite... However when the ish hits the fan the braking power is there. The hardware is decent. Needs more feel and bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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