DJ Wolf Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I have a 2.5I w/ 4EAT - I am a little disappointed that this setup has a lower end AWD system. When I first got it, I punched the gas a little bit in a corner on snow and was surprized too how easily the back end came out. The advice of just let of the gas and gently counter steer does seem to work well. Now I just drive as carefully as I did when I had my old FWD car and I have no issues. I would like to better understand the performace capabilities of the 2.5I w/ 4EAT. Does it have some benefits I hope? Do you guys think a FWD car with Dedicated Snows would outperforme a 2.5I with All Seasons ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbern Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 First of all, punching it with any car in the snow is asking for problems. The key is to ease into the throttle and keep a constant petal. Don't be afraid of it, turn your front wheels where you wanna go and stay in the throttle it will come around. For everyones sake, if you wanna "hotdog" around in the snow do it in a parking lot, specially if you don't know how the car reacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Do you guys think a FWD car with Dedicated Snows would outperforme a 2.5I with All Seasons ? My .02 on this is a fwd car with dedicated snows would stop and corner better, but a 2.5i with all seasons would have less trouble moving forward and is less likely to get stuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Tank Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 First of all, punching it with any car in the snow is asking for problems. The key is to ease into the throttle and keep a constant petal. Don't be afraid of it, turn your front wheels where you wanna go and stay in the throttle it will come around. For everyones sake, if you wanna "hotdog" around in the snow do it in a parking lot, specially if you don't know how the car reacts. Here in south Minneapolis the streets dont get plowed. It's all a big messy playground. The Subaru Symmetrical AWD is completely predictable. It will always behave the same way. My car is a manual GT and therefore, I believe, has greater rear bias than the automatic models. It's true, the key is to, "stay in the throttle." I don't know if it's becuse this my third Subaru, but I feel completely comfortable during drift. If it's snowy, I'm bringing the rear end around most every turn. I don't look forward to winter all year for nothing. To go from driving a FWD car to a Subaru is big transition. I have seen a couple threads about people that liked their FWD more. Bad tires aside, AWD is superior in every condition. It just takes some getting used to...and also some bawls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS5689 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Here in south Minneapolis the streets dont get plowed. It's all a big messy playground. The Subaru Symmetrical AWD is completely predictable. It will always behave the same way. My car is a manual GT and therefore, I believe, has greater rear bias than the automatic models. It's true, the key is to, "stay in the throttle." I don't know if it's becuse this my third Subaru, but I feel completely comfortable during drift. If it's snowy, I'm bringing the rear end around most every turn. I don't look forward to winter all year for nothing. To go from driving a FWD car to a Subaru is big transition. I have seen a couple threads about people that liked their FWD more. Bad tires aside, AWD is superior in every condition. It just takes some getting used to...and also some bawls. Not quite. You have a 50:50 split as opposed to the 90:10 on the 4EAT N/A engine, but the 5EAT in the GT has a 45:55 split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katalyst Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 it comes down to driving style and rubber i have a shitty 2.5i 4EAT but i just got around fine in the 20" dump we had. the only time i got stuck was when i beached myself on my driveway cause i'm lowered on coilovers. just cause you have AWD doesn't mean laws of physics don't apply anymore. i still think the crap 4EAT system is more functional than a fwd car. my roommate has a sentra and had lots of trouble this past week, getting stuck in areas that i didn't have any issues going through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Tank Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Not quite. You have a 50:50 split as opposed to the 90:10 on the 4EAT N/A engine, but the 5EAT in the GT has a 35:65 split. Thanks RJ. That sort of information is hard to find in one place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmhm17 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 do 08's come with VDC? all i can say is with VDC off my car drives like a 4x4 truck its all over the road, but with it on the car is so intellagent when it comes to keeping the car stable i really dont have to worry about drifting out of control.. night and day.. if you dont have it i would recomend getting a set of blizzaks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanjk3 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Not quite. You have a 50:50 split as opposed to the 90:10 on the 4EAT N/A engine, but the 5EAT in the GT has a 35:65 split. 5EAT is 45/55 http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2005.html Friends don't let friends drink cheap beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbern Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Here in south Minneapolis the streets dont get plowed. It's all a big messy playground. The Subaru Symmetrical AWD is completely predictable. Yeah you are right, i have been driving subarus also for a good deal of time, but he was talking about how he doesn't know how it reacts. For all of us, i think it would be best to keep the "playground" activities to the parking lots until he understands how the car reacts in the snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rock2534 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Do you guys think a FWD car with Dedicated Snows would outperforme a 2.5I with All Seasons ? Yes, in my opinion and experience, a fwd with snows will be much better than an awd with AS tires. Prior to getting my LGT I had an 01 Acura CL-S for almost 7 yrs. I used to run blizzaks in the winter and I never had an issue with acceleration, stopping, or turning. I used to purposely drive and park in snow piles just so I could bust out of them. The first winter with my LGT we got a good amount of snow and I noticed right away the limitations of the stock AS tires. You can get moving, but you can feel that you are riding on top of the snow rather than digging into it. Stopping and turning sucked, and i had some issues pulling out of parking spots where you had to drive up over snow to get out, the car would start up and then slide back down. I am running Nokian WRs now year round, they are great in the snow and good in the summer. Having AWD, I don't really feel like having a separate set of wheels/tires for the winter. There are some AS tires that are good in snow, especially with awd, so I will be sticking to those from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS5689 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 5EAT is 45/55 http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2005.html Yep, you would be correct. I have no idea why I said 65 in the rear. Must have been thinking of my dad's Escalade which sends 60% to the rear. Sorry for the error guys.... Damn I hate when I do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoLegacy Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 We put Michelin Primacy MXV4's on my wife's Outback and love them. I see you are in St Paul, we're in Eden Prairie. The Bridgestone Potenza's that came as OE sucked (I don't remember the model) and the Goodyear Triple Treads were great, but wore terrible (yeah I know about alignment and rotating). http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=GTAS I'd have to concur with the comments on the Primacy's. Great overall tires. Not perfect in really bad winter conditions, but anything less than studded snow tires are a compromise and I think these perform extremely well in every condition we've had so far (just need to wait for severe rain for a final test...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clark687 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 my family owns a 2009 2.5i SE 4EAT as well. this past friday the car fishtailed and was in an accident. tires are also Yokohama Advan A82's. I looked them up, they are crappy in snow which contributed to the car loosing control on light snow. 7 thousand dollar bill on the car now. and a 27 day wait. awesome subaru. So i'm with you on the crappy stock tires. too bad the car is a lease, so we aren't planning on replacing the tires. Just driving it less. Happened to me but not as bad, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 My 1994 Subaru Legacy Turbo Wagon was great and easy to control in the snow and ice , very solid and stable on all season Yokohama YK tires My 1992 Subaru Legacy Turbo sport sedan was easy to control and stable on snow and ice on all season Yokahama Avidtouring tires My 1985 Brat easy to control cheap tires. My 1983 Subaru GL Wagon was easy to control on snow and ice on all season cheapies.. My 2006 Subaru Outback is hard as heck to control, and is not stable in snow and ice with new General Altimax HP all seasons....... SOA, please help. something is not right. It the rear end. Other cars on the road were just fine, mine was like it was on marbles with backend swaying, even at low speeds of 40 when other cars were driving 55 and not having control issues. None of the other Subarus ever were this bad in all conditions. I am 35, plenty of experience growing up ni the snow belt. What did SOA do wrong on this car. I would gladly trade it for the way my old ones were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillboy Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Probably a little less for the smaller tires. The Pacifica has truck sized tires on it. $139 per tire before the dealer's $10 per tire coupon. $270 per tire is nuts, even if they are bigger. It is still ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Tires are a HUGE factor. They are your only contact patch with the road. I think it's time for a good set, not the stock crap. Also, do you have the 5MT or 4EAT. The 4EAT uses a crappy "AWD" system. It functions like a Haldex system in the sense it has a 90:10 split until there is slippage, then can only send up to 30% of torque to the rear. The 5MT uses a 50:50 split with a center and rear LSD (the 2.5i with 5MT does use a viscous in the rear, correct?) the 90/10 Active AWD is more intelligent than the 50/50 Continuous AWD. The 90/10 AWD doesn't wait for slippage like most other AWD systems. It changes the torque split based on steering, throttle, and braking inputs as well as slippage. It's not like traditional Haldex at all. That's why even the old school Active AWD Subaru's outperformed Volvo Haldex cars. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyLgYskj-oc]YouTube- Subaru Legacy Outback vs Volvo V70 Cross Country[/ame] [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeslgt Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 My 1994 Subaru Legacy Turbo Wagon was great and easy to control in the snow and ice , very solid and stable on all season Yokohama YK tires My 1992 Subaru Legacy Turbo sport sedan was easy to control and stable on snow and ice on all season Yokahama Avidtouring tires My 1985 Brat easy to control cheap tires. My 1983 Subaru GL Wagon was easy to control on snow and ice on all season cheapies.. My 2006 Subaru Outback is hard as heck to control, and is not stable in snow and ice with new General Altimax HP all seasons....... SOA, please help. something is not right. It the rear end. Other cars on the road were just fine, mine was like it was on marbles with backend swaying, even at low speeds of 40 when other cars were driving 55 and not having control issues. None of the other Subarus ever were this bad in all conditions. I am 35, plenty of experience growing up ni the snow belt. What did SOA do wrong on this car. I would gladly trade it for the way my old ones were. I have those same tires and they were scary on wet roads when NEW. I have about 1500 miles on them now and they're not bad. They have to wear in a little for some reason. The tire dealers really ought to warn about this, it may be peculiar to these particular tires as i don't recall experiencing a night/day difference with 1500 miles wear-in. Certainly not snow tires, but good in wet/dry weather. Dedicated winter/snow tires are amazing. Do the research. And, no, they don't need to be studded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legume Posted December 25, 2009 Author Share Posted December 25, 2009 So I got my tires swapped 2 nights ago. I was in a time crunch, as I had holiday travel and a big snow storm was en route. Several shops couldn't get me in, so I settled for one whose best tires in stock in my size were Bridgestone Potenzas. Reviews are all over the board for these, but I've owned them before on a previous car and didn't have any problems, so there you go. It's like night and day of course compared to the summer tires. I'm in and out of snow banked road sides with ease, stopping is greatly improved, and I'm generally felling 100% more confident and secure. I drove through several side streets with ease, where other cars were being shoveled and pushed out by groups of people (to think that was me not long ago). I'm getting the hang of the throttle/drift technique as well (in a word: Fun!). I don't go with snow tires around here, because most of my driving is freeway. Once the salt melts through to the pavement within a day or two, they wear out too fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legume Posted December 25, 2009 Author Share Posted December 25, 2009 the 90/10 Active AWD is more intelligent than the 50/50 Continuous AWD. The 90/10 AWD doesn't wait for slippage like most other AWD systems. It changes the torque split based on steering, throttle, and braking inputs as well as slippage. It's not like traditional Haldex at all. That's why even the old school Active AWD Subaru's outperformed Volvo Haldex cars. Thiis is interesting. I don't speak German...my first thought is each car equiped with the same tires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I have those same tires and they were scary on wet roads when NEW. I have about 1500 miles on them now and they're not bad. They have to wear in a little for some reason. The tire dealers really ought to warn about this, it may be peculiar to these particular tires as i don't recall experiencing a night/day difference with 1500 miles wear-in. Certainly not snow tires, but good in wet/dry weather. "Tires are comprised of many layers of rubber, steel and fabric. Due to these different components, your new tires require a break-in period to ensure that they deliver their normal ride quality and maximum performance. As tires are cured, a release lubricant is applied to prevent them from sticking in their mold. Some of the lubricant stays on the surface of your tires, reducing traction until it is worn away. Five hundred miles of easy acceleration, cornering and braking will allow the mold release lubricant to wear off, allowing the other tire components to begin working together. It is also important to note that your old tires probably had very little tread depth remaining when you felt it was time to replace them. As any autocrosser or racer who has tread rubber shaved off of his tires will tell you, low tread depth tires respond quicker."Don't be surprised if your new tires are a little slower to respond (even if you use the exact same tire as before). Their new, full depth brings with it a little more tread squirm until they wear down." http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Thiis is interesting. I don't speak German...my first thought is each car equiped with the same tires? The cars are on the same tires. Someone made note of that in translating the review. It's nothing new either. Autoblog tested the new xc70 and came up with similar results. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/13/in-the-autoblog-garage-2008-volvo-xc70-w-video/ Bad weather is the reason most people want AWD, but we were disappointed that the rugged looks of the XC70 didn't carry over to off-road performance, as stability control and AWD neuter wheel slip by locking the rubber all together. We also had little luck testing Volvo's hill descent control due to the fact that we couldn't get up the hill in the first place, and we're not talking Mt. Kilimanjaro, either folks. This was more like a bunny hill.and here again: the 2.5i Forester before it even had VDC could make it up the rollers no problem. The cars that had to wait for slippage (highlander, CRV, XC90) could not. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanT55 Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 No problems for my 2009 3R. Handled snow like a champ. Took the family out this morning for a Christmas sleigh ride Subaru style. Handled unplowed neighborhood streets without a hitch. HINT: Try taking your traction control off when in snow which is recommended in the owners manual. Merry Christmas (I think Santa drives a Subaru;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeslgt Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 "Tires are comprised of many layers of rubber, steel and fabric. Due to these different components, your new tires require a break-in period to ensure that they deliver their normal ride quality and maximum performance. As tires are cured, a release lubricant is applied to prevent them from sticking in their mold. Some of the lubricant stays on the surface of your tires, reducing traction until it is worn away. Five hundred miles of easy acceleration, cornering and braking will allow the mold release lubricant to wear off, allowing the other tire components to begin working together. It is also important to note that your old tires probably had very little tread depth remaining when you felt it was time to replace them. As any autocrosser or racer who has tread rubber shaved off of his tires will tell you, low tread depth tires respond quicker."Don't be surprised if your new tires are a little slower to respond (even if you use the exact same tire as before). Their new, full depth brings with it a little more tread squirm until they wear down." http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=5 Appreciate that. I could have researched it myself, i just don't recall it being an issue with previous new tires and i was surprised the dealer didn't warn me. These tires were scary bad in on wet roads. Quite a difference now. BTW, the tires i've been talking about were the General Altamax HP. Overall they're a good value for the money, but, let's not confuse them with dedicated snow tires. Snow tires are amazing in snow and ice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROON02 Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 CURRENT CAR is 06 cobalt ss/sc with pirelli sottozero 240's these tires lovvve the snow. whats confusing me is that all these posts of people gettinh awd cars and assuming that the dealership would have given you snow tires or that just because you have awd you neednt be prepared for snow ? seriously? idk about most of you but having a set of tires for the winter and summer is only common sense i would think. btw - next car will be a subie just not sure if its gonna be a wrx or legacy but i cant wait ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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