GT Limited vs. TL SHAWD 6MT

[draph94]

...got to test drive an MT TL that just hit the dealer lot this week. I test drove a Legacy GT last week. Some folks may think I'm nuts for this cross-shopping comparison, but...

 

* Both cars have polarizing styling (I can tolerate either about the same)

* Both cars have AWD

* Both cars have 6 speed MTs

* Both have good reliability reputations

* Both cars somewhat have luxury sport sedan pretensions

 

Thoughts on TL:

 

- The Honda shift linkage, IMHO is one of the best out there

- Not much room inside for such a large, heavy car

- Engine is very tractable across the rev range

- Signs of going cheap, like gooseneck trunk hinges.

- Overall impression - A tier 2 trying to be tier 1 at a tier 1 price

 

Some points of comparison to Legacy GT:

 

- Legacy is a bargain value for the money compared to TL which is over 12K more in MSRP

- Same highway EPA ratings (city Legacy 1mpg better), despite Legacy having a 4-cyl and 400 less lbs to hall around

- Much better packaging in the Legacy - The TL has very thick seat backs which give it almost 2 inches less rear legroom than the Legacy (it is noticeable)

- I don't like either car's massive front overhang

- Gearing/turbo on the Legacy make it feel nearly, if not quicker, than the Acura off the line

- Legacy might actually have less road noise than the Acura

- Legacy less pretentious than the Acura, which is a good thing in my book

 

If those were the only two choices I had, to me it all comes down to whether a vastly superior shifter, slightly nicer interior materials, HID headlights, and a few extra fad/luxury features like keyless entry and push button start are worth more than 12K.

 

I'm not sure what the Subaru product planners had in mind for Legacy GT's competitors when they decided to cheap out on the manual shifter. With a great shifter and HIDs, Subaru would have me in the bag even if they had to increase price a couple of K. I think the TL is out unless they have deep discounts; and the Infiniti G37 could wind up winning as a compromise car (awd isn't a requirement for me, but MT is). Legacy may still win, though. The G37 would be about 5-6K more than the Legacy, but also has a much better-feeling shifter.

 

How much is driving enjoyment worth - would I get used to the Legacy shifter over time and accept/enjoy it as part of the car's personality, or will it be a frustrating reminder of my/Subaru's cheapness with every shift? I wish I could test drive a Legacy GT with the accessory short-throw shifter to see if it feels any better...(if it feels as good as what's in the WRX STI, I might be able to live with that).

[BAC5.2]

I'd go Subaru, mostly because of that 12k price difference. I can't think of anything the TL has that would be worth 12k to me.

 

If I were considering the 40-45k range, I'd be looking at overrun 08/09 CTS-V's and M3's, or 335xi's for AWD. I think I saw a markdown sticker of 46k for a loaded 08 CTSV.

[BAC5.2]

As for feeling like the STi, it won't. Completely different transmission.

 

If shifter feel is all that matters to you, just replace the bushings. That helps a lot.

[pix0r]

I was actually looking at the Acura too, but hadn't found any that weren't fully loaded (thus out of my price range). I test drove the automatic trans and it was nice and comfy. The lack of fold-down seats, and the really small pass-through door in the trunk were my biggest show-stoppers besides the price.

[HanGmaN]

im a big Acura fan, but i just couldn't do that extra 12k... don't get me wrong, Honda makes GREAT CARS, (had a '87 prelude 5sp-214,000 miles: 1991 Acura Intergra 4dr. 5sp. 240500 miles) which were in still GREAT running condition when i got rid of them. But Honda's all seem to be overpriced to me. (just my 2 cents on the price)

Push button start is nice to have, the seats on the TL seem more supportive, nice looking interior, voice controlled everything, FOLDING MIRRORS (ahem SOA), HID's ( again SOA), but im not too sure about "Hacuras" SH-AWD. honsetly, if i had a higher income, and wanted to have a car that everyone knew was luxury, i would get it.

 

On the other hand, Subaru has made its name on their "Symetrical AWD," Boxer engine (lower center of gravity), and the value. The engine is VERY mechanic friendly, but 12k is something you could put into it in the car to make it better? ( if you are going for that kind of vehicle to modify) you could add the "sti sport shifter" and make it a little better. The look of the 2010 Legacy has been +1 to look VERY upscale and "luxurious," which i have to physically show to everyone that its not just a "outback" or "Forrester."

 

i went for the Subaru, and haven't looked back since. hope this helps, and hope i didn't give a bias opinion.

[DeltaSniper]

if i were you id take the legacy because its more value for the money...

 

and as for styling i think the new TL is hideous the old TL was a beautiful car and the new one just looks like as if it had its nose bashed upwards and chromified

 

the old legacy was beautiful too... but the new legacy isnt as bad as the new TL IMO

[DrCloud]

Hangman hit it: the Honda/Acura AWD system sucks compared to Subaru's, whether they call it "smart" or not.

 

Also, I've had a Honda with the push-button start (an S2000). It's just a gimmick with no real value, and it confuses the hell out of people who might need to drive the car. While this can be amusing, it's also a pain to deal with. HPH

[krzyss]

I am not sure that SH-AWD sucks compared to any of Subaru AWD systems.

Maybe STI DCCD but not anything else.

 

Krzys

[draph94]

Thanks for the inputs, everyone. All of you pretty much affirmed my thoughts. I wish I didn't have to get a car in 2010. I have no doubt there will be a Spec B or STI version in another year or two which will fill in the current shortcomings - we'll see revival of SI drive and limited slip rear differential, and addition of HIDs. I'll have to do further analysis - if typical Subaru depreciation would allow me to get that B or STI version for less than 12K to boot with a 2010 trade-in, the decision would become a no brainer (experience of owning two new Subarus over a 2 or 3 year period for same price as one new TL in 2010). ...except my wife will need to replace her car around 2013 - and two car payments is a no go for us.

[camber]

I am not sure that SH-AWD sucks compared to any of Subaru AWD systems.

Maybe STI DCCD but not anything else.

 

Krzys

 

Not all SH-AWD systems are equal;)

 

SH-AWD systems found in all but the Acura RL suck hard. The system in RL is the only current SH-AWD system that can continuously power all four wheels.

[timmahh]

As a 3G TL owner up until about two weeks ago I can say I love both the 3G and 4G TL.

 

I had an 04 6MT but after various issues w/ power steering made a deal with the dealer and got rid of it.

 

The technology in the TL is fantastic, I had a 4G TL loaner from Sept 1st to 15th, and the tech package is amazing, along with the lovely keep the key in your pocket, touch the door handle to unlock, then just push start to start the car.. You get spoiled very fast with that car.

 

I haven't driven an SH-AWD TL, but the 310hp 3.7 engine is supposed to be pretty damned nice and have a great sound because of the first time usage of variable timing somewhere the normal v6's don't use it [forget exactly what it is].

 

How does SH-AWD suck? Not to bash the subie, but as far as I know, with the legacy AWD system reacts when you loose traction, right? In the SH-AWD system it's actively monitoring each wheel, and can send torque front to back as well as left to right. The super handling comes into play as you're turning, it can vector power to the rear outside wheel to counteract understeer, and keep the car turning tight. I think the legacy AWD system is mechanical, vs. SH-AWD that uses various electronics to direct the power and increase handling..

 

Here is some wiki stuff:

 

 

 

 

SH-AWD operating parameters include:

• Up to 90-percent of available torque can be transferred to the front wheels during normal cruising.
  
• In hard cornering and under acceleration, up to 70-percent of available torque can be directed to the rear wheels to enhance vehicle dynamics.
  
• Up to 100-percent of the torque sent to the rear axle can be applied to either rear wheel, depending on conditions.
  

Having said that, I will always miss my 3G TL. I can't think of another car that offers great [usually...!] reliability with a ton of features; the closest thing I can tihnk of is a Legacy GT with a custom carputer to give me the navi and bluetooth functionality I had in the TL.

 

The 4G TL price is a bit $$$; on the automatic TL SH-AWD tech you can get it for under invoice, but there will not be a ton of 6MTs made so it's going to be hard to talk to them down, if at all.

 

Still can't wait till I find my gem legacy gt limited!

[camber]

How does SH-AWD suck? !

 

You need to do more research into SH-AWD. Not all branded SH-AWD systems suck. Just every system outside of the Acura RL:lol:

 

The Acura RL has was called an Acceleration unit(planetary gear with clutch pack) which can overdrive the speed of the rear wheels from 0(this is important) - 5.7%. This means the RL's AWD system can happily send power at all times to the rear wheels. However, in the el cheapo version of SH-AWD, found in the new TL, the rear axle wheels are overdriven at a constant 1.7% speed over the front wheels:spin: Therefore, in the cheap version of SH-AWD, you can choose to either send 0% power to the rear wheels or send power to the rear axle which overdrives the speed of the rear wheels by 1.7%. This is done by a clutch(the clutches are paper by the way) pack that is either open or closed.

 

The SH-AWD found in cars outside of the RL, are there to improve performance feel in very certain circumstances for very short periods of time.

 

But hey... I'm sure you can mod the system to stay locked and constantly overdrive the rear wheels. Although, I'm not sure what longevity of your drivetrain would be:lol:

[docboy]

You need to do more research into SH-AWD. Not all branded SH-AWD systems suck. Just every system outside of the Acura RL:lol:

 

The Acura RL has was called an Acceleration unit(planetary gear with clutch pack) which can overdrive the speed of the rear wheels from 0(this is important) - 5.7%. This means the RL's AWD system can happily send power at all times to the rear wheels. However, in the el cheapo version of SH-AWD, found in the new TL, the rear axle wheels are overdriven at a constant 1.7% speed over the front wheels:spin: Therefore, in the cheap version of SH-AWD, you can choose to either send 0% power to the rear wheels or send power to the rear axle which overdrives the speed of the rear wheels by 1.7%. This is done by a clutch(the clutches are paper by the way) pack that is either open or closed.

 

The SH-AWD found in cars outside of the RL, are there to improve performance feel in very certain circumstances for very short periods of time.

 

But hey... I'm sure you can mod the system to stay locked and constantly overdrive the rear wheels. Although, I'm not sure what longevity of your drivetrain would be:lol:

 

This info is great. I've been looking at the longest time between the TL SH AWD 6MT and the Audi A4 2.0T Quattro 6spd (I ruled out the 2010 LGT for now).

 

Do you what type of SHAWD system is in the MDX by chance? I test drove the MDX in the snow a while back, and it did great. Very sure footed.

 

Forget where I read it, but one site had mentioned the SH AWD system in the TL is designed more for performance reasons than for inclement weather conditions.

[PGT]

My parents bought an auto SH-AWD Tech a few months back. I found it to handle really, really well and was quite surprised at the BMW feel of the balance between ride and performance of the suspension. I've thought that last two TL's were soft in comparison....front heavy, understeering pigs. This new TL doesn't feel that way at all. I went into a corner harder than I thought I should and it didn't flinch.

 

Whether or not its worth $38k....not to me. My boss bought an M-B E350 last month for that money....I'd rather be in that car than an Acura for the same money.

[camber]

This info is great. I've been looking at the longest time between the TL SH AWD 6MT and the Audi A4 2.0T Quattro 6spd (I ruled out the 2010 LGT for now).

 

Do you what type of SHAWD system is in the MDX by chance? I test drove the MDX in the snow a while back, and it did great. Very sure footed.

 

Forget where I read it, but one site had mentioned the SH AWD system in the TL is designed more for performance reasons than for inclement weather conditions.

 

MDX has does not have the RL type AWD.

 

I've seen an RDX get stuck in a parking spot because the front wheels were on sheer ice on an incline, and the power to rear wheels alternating on and off in bursts.

[draph94]

I haven't driven an SH-AWD TL, but the 310hp 3.7 engine is supposed to be pretty damned nice and have a great sound because of the first time usage of variable timing somewhere the normal v6's don't use it [forget exactly what it is].

 

 

The 3.7 is still SOHC, but the VTEC is on both intake and exhaust valves. I believe all the other Honda/Acura V6s have VTEC on intake only. By comparison, the Infiniti 3.7 V6 is DOHC; but I'm not sure if the VVEL (their term for VTEC) is on both intake and exhaust or not. All I know is my back to back comparision of the MT G37 and TL revealed the extra 21 hp of the Infiniti is in the high revs, where it seems the Acura V6 has it's power spread more evenly across the rev range.

 

Given I've been spoiled with such a flat torque curve on my 335 for almost 3 years, I prefer the Acura's linearity for now. However, I've had peaky VTEC Hondas before and enjoyed winding them out - so I haven't ruled out Infiniti yet, just like I haven't ruled out the Legacy yet. That new turbo setup in the 2.5GT is pretty sweet. It felt as strong off the line as my 335 (more confident, in fact since it can put the power down better with awd than my 335 rwd with open diff where I have to feather the thottle to keep the traction control from spoiling the fun), but it felt like the power died as soon as the revs dropped in the next gear.

[D0WNxSH1FT]

I am not sure that SH-AWD sucks compared to any of Subaru AWD systems.

Maybe STI DCCD but not anything else.

 

Krzys

 

SH-AWD is 90/10. It is not full time awd. It does not have a center diff. It is far less capable than Subaru. Save the Active auto models.

 

Not to bash the subie, but as far as I know, with the legacy AWD system reacts when you loose traction, right?

no. All manual and vtd equipped autos have full time awd with a center differential. They are PROACTIVE, not reactive. [EDIT: However, when a wheel loses traction it will redistribute torque and the VDC will brake that wheel to help it gain traction, so there is some reactive action...but it is full time, not a "till slip" system.] Only the low end auto 2.5i is 90/10 till slip and even that system changes if ur doing anything but constant cruising at the same speed.

 

Do you what type of SHAWD system is in the MDX by chance? I test drove the MDX in the snow a while back, and it did great. Very sure footed.

 

The MDX is the 90/10 fwd biased cheap version. My parents have an 07. It does well in the snow due to it's rise height, weight and tall suv tires.

[timmahh]

Lots of good info all, I feel the smarts!!

(.. and I didn't even start the the thread)

[JC10LEGACYGT]

+1 ~~ Good infomation. I was considering a RDX SH-AWD before the Legacy GT. But once I test-drove the Legacy GT..I fell in love with the car.

[MiniStiGuy]

I worked with Acura for over 5 years. If your not buying an RL don't bother with the increased cost of the AWD system.

[mars_volta]

Subaru really fell down on that flimsy floppy new shifter didnt they?

[Sideways the Seven]

I know it's not going to happen, but 6MT in the RL would be pretty interesting.

[MiniStiGuy]

RL's are comfy to drive and all but no power house. I prefer my subi over the 1000's of Acura's I've driven.

[Sideways the Seven]

RL's are comfy to drive and all but no power house. I prefer my subi over the 1000's of Acura's I've driven.

 

 

Oh, the RL is much too cushy for me, but a 6MT paired to the RL's SH-AWD would be pretty sweet. Interestingly enough, the 6MT and auto TL SH-AWD are night and day in terms of performance IMO.

[HanGmaN]

so the RL's SH-AWD system is better than taht of the TL?