lawl Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 controlling the power is throttle modulation. controlling the gear selection is with the clutch. just imagine for a second...the car shifting for you where you want it without hitting the 3rd pedal. dont get me wrong. its not perfect 1005 of the time. then again nor is the manual. you all mis shift as well. well, i've never heard anyone try to make the case that you can get the same amount of control in an auto than the manual but that was an interesting take. if you dont have carsick prone passengers, if you want to mod the car for power then i would get the manual. car for sale. PM me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 controlling the power is throttle modulation. controlling the gear selection is with the clutch. just imagine for a second...the car shifting for you where you want it without hitting the 3rd pedal. dont get me wrong. its not perfect 1005 of the time. then again nor is the manual. you all mis shift as well. So if I have my foot to the floor on the accelerator, and clutch fully depressed, im not putting any power out to the wheels. Modulate the clutch out and you start to allow that power to be realized at the wheels. Clutch = power control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raloi Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 No comparison .... AT is convenient but not precise ... Sport shift is sloppy with AT. My buddy rtbrjason is going to stop by and compare my AT with his spec b ... LOL !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 well, i've never heard anyone try to make the case that you can get the same amount of control in an auto than the manual but that was an interesting take. if you dont have carsick prone passengers, if you want to mod the car for power then i would get the manual. what is the supposed power loss from manual to auto? the engines are the same so the power levels at fly wheel will be the same. i'd like for you to more accurately state your point. most i have seen on this forum...others blindly state 20hp loss. soo...the 5eat pulls away from the manual when you get up to the bigger turbos. its been proven on this forum. AGAIN...NO ONE HAS DONE A DRIVE TRANE LOSS TEST NO ONE!!! when you have proof try this post again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 So if I have my foot to the floor on the accelerator, and clutch fully depressed, im not putting any power out to the wheels. Modulate the clutch out and you start to allow that power to be realized at the wheels. Clutch = power control. the transmission is the link not the item making the power. the level of power is throttle controled. getting it fromt he engine to the wheels is through the transmission. the tranny in itself makes zero power. using your argument... brakes = the power control in an auto since i can hold it then let off and then the car will move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 the transmission is the link not the item making the power. the level of power is throttle controled. getting it fromt he engine to the wheels is through the transmission. the tranny in itself makes zero power. using your argument... brakes = the power control in an auto since i can hold it then let off and then the car will move. Not sure why you're arguing this.. Yeah the transmission channels the power to the rest of the drivetrain and wheels. The clutch allows control of that power in a way that the brakes never could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The clutch allows control of that power in a way that the brakes never could. how so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The brakes are attempting to keep the wheels from spinning. Full power is still being delivered through the drivetrain to the wheel. The clutch modulates how much of that power is making it through the drivetrain to the wheels. I get the feel you've not driven a car with a manual clutch? It's not an on or off control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The brakes are attempting to keep the wheels from spinning. Full power is still being delivered through the drivetrain to the wheel. The clutch modulates how much of that power is making it through the drivetrain to the wheels. I get the feel you've not driven a car with a manual clutch? It's not an on or off control. can you make the car accelerate with out using the gas pedal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Yes, somewhat. Not quickly obviously. I'm certainly not saying the gas pedal doesn't control acceleration, I'm simply stating the fact that the clutch allows for modulation of that power you're putting into the gas pedal. I give it 50% throttle with the clutch pedal depressed for instance. As I let the clutch out, some of the 50% power is making it to the wheels. If I were to fully let off (drop) the clutch, all 50% instantly goes into the wheels. I'm pretty sure this clearly exemplifies the clutch controlling the power given by the accelerator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawl Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 what is the supposed power loss from manual to auto? the engines are the same so the power levels at fly wheel will be the same. i'd like for you to more accurately state your point. most i have seen on this forum...others blindly state 20hp loss. soo...the 5eat pulls away from the manual when you get up to the bigger turbos. its been proven on this forum. AGAIN...NO ONE HAS DONE A DRIVE TRANE LOSS TEST NO ONE!!! when you have proof try this post again. whoa there buddy. you jumped the gun. talking about life and longevity, not drivetrain loss the auto tranny requires help past stage 2. even during stage 2. valve body mods and that kinda stuff. car for sale. PM me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 whoa there buddy. you jumped the gun. talking about life and longevity, not drivetrain loss the auto tranny requires help past stage 2. even during stage 2. valve body mods and that kinda stuff. no anger here. just wanted to stress that no one has done the tests for hard evidence and proof. some of the manual folk get upgraded clutches. no difference really. IF a tuner hacked into the tcu a vb upgrade may be archaic. the line pressure should be able to be controlled by software. check out the giac tip chip for the older b5 automatic s4's. same priciple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydoobie Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Performance wise- the MT tranny wins hands down. Not sure why this is even being debated here (again). The manual transmission allows the driver to be much more directly connected to the vehicle and put power to the road (like rtrbjason has explained). It is a known fact that AWD+Auto transmission= more drivetrain loss than AWD+ MT. There is no way around tthe fact that any auto tranny is more power robbing than its manual counterpart. No test is needed. They don't call an auto a "slush box" for no reason. Don't get me wrong, I love driving my 5EAT, but to say its just as good performance wise as the manual is just plain wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 can you make the car accelerate with out using the gas pedal? I can set off from a dead stop without the gas pedal, yes. I'll do this in places like pulling into my garage, or creeping through the daycare parking lot. Heck, my old diesel Ford Sierra had so much torque you didn't need the gas pedal in stop and go driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawlwawl06 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Not a GT response, but one of the main reasons I got my 2.5i was because it was a 5MT, and I love it. No way in bloody hell I was going to get a 4EAT 2.5i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydoobie Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Quick read on the Subaru AWD differences between auto and manual: Originally Posted by AutoWorld.com All-Wheel Drive (Automatic Transmission) Active all-wheel drive is a term coined by Subaru to differentiate the all-wheel drive system in the automatic transmission from other "reactive" all-wheel drive systems on the market today. What makes this all-wheel drive system so special is its ability to anticipate traction needs and act before a wheel slips. The mechanism that transfers torque fore and aft is contained within the transmission’s tailshaft. To the casual observer it looks just like a typical hydraulic clutch found in any automatic. The key difference in this clutch pack is its operation. It’s designed to slip according to how much all-wheel drive is needed. When an automatic’s clutch slips, it is due to a malfunction and will eventually burn up. But the multi-plate transfer (MPT) clutch uses a special friction material that easily withstands the friction loads generated during torque transfer. The MPT’s operation is controlled by the Transmission Control Unit (or TCU) and constantly changes dependent on how the vehicle is being driven. To get more all-wheel drive, the TCU increases the hydraulic pressure to the clutch for less slippage. Less all-wheel drive calls for more slip and the TCU reduces the hydraulic pressure to the clutch. Under normal, dry pavement operation torque split is about 90% front and 10% rear. This distribution helps to compensate for the car’s weight distribution and resultant smaller effective rolling diameter of the front tires. As weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle, (i.e., under acceleration), the TCU shifts the torque split more toward the rear wheels. Under hard braking, torque is directed forward. Torque distribution is changed based upon how the vehicle is being driven. Throttle position, gearshift lever position, current gear and other factors combine to influence the TCU and it, in turn, selects a software map that determines how aggressively torque split will be adjusted. Two speed sensors are used by the TCU to detect wheel slippage. One sensor monitors the front axle set, the other the rear axle set. Pre-programmed variables help the TCU differentiate between slipping wheels and normal wheel speed differentials as what occurs when cornering. A speed differential (front-to-rear) of up to 20% signals the TCU that the vehicle is cornering and torque is distributed to the front wheels to help increase traction during the turn. Anything above 20%, however, indicates to the TCU that wheel slippage is occurring and torque is then distributed to the rear wheels. Another feature of the all-wheel drive system is its interaction with the anti-lock brake system. When ABS is engaged, the transmission selects third gear, reducing the unpredictability of engine braking and, thus, reducing the possibility of wheel lock-up. But all four wheels are still connected to the engine through the AWD system and are brought back up to overall vehicle speed quicker and can, therefore, be controlled again sooner. In a two-wheel drive system if the locking wheel isn’t a drive wheel, it can only be brought back up to overall wheel speed by whatever traction exists between it and the road. The quicker a wheel is controlled the better the stopping performance All-Wheel Drive (Manual Transmission) The 5-speed manual transmission’s all-wheel drive is referred to as a continuous all-wheel drive system. It uses a center differential located inside the transmission case that is controlled by a viscous coupling device. In effect, the center differential is a limited-slip differential. In normal operation, power is distributed equally to the front and rear wheels. Plates are alternately attached to the front and rear output shafts inside the viscous coupling. When a rotational difference occurs between the front and back wheels, the plates inside the viscous housing shear inside the contained fluid (a type of silicone) heating it and causing the fluid to thicken. The thickened fluid causes the plates to transfer torque from those that rotate faster (the slipping wheels) to the plates that rotate slower (the wheels with the best traction). This no-maintenance system is simple, compact and virtually invisible in its operation. The system can distribute torque from a 50:50 torque split for maximum traction to mostly front or rear wheel drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Quick read on the Subaru AWD differences between auto and manual: [/i] its the 4eat information. 5eat is a little bit different as we start out at 44/55 f/r. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 did the data input for the "dyno" http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=68674&stc=1&d=1243705839 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 You'll want to try to start your log as close to 2k rpm as possible to get an idea of the actual power curve. Peak numbers mean very little. Also, click the dyno chart tab, click the chart and copy and then paste into paint for a better image. Here is an example of a couple of runs on mine: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 You'll want to try to start your log as close to 2k rpm as possible to get an idea of the actual power curve. Peak numbers mean very little. Also, click the dyno chart tab, click the chart and copy and then paste into paint for a better image. Here is an example of a couple of runs on mine: good luck with that. all my information is public on this forum. logs are on the rallitek forum. i live in mukilteo wa. no matter what i post there will always be something wrong. if i posted a dyno from rallitek showing the same dyno plot of what i posted you guys would claim something was amiss. if i actually beat a stock or stage 1 manual you guys would blame the tune on the manual. i did start the clock at 2k rpms but the ap had a lag and picked up in the 3k range. your graph mentions peak numbers. why is mine wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssej Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Almost every car forum I have ever been to, or any discussion about manual vs automatic trannys, always says that automatic transmissions have higher % of parasitic drivetrain loss. Now, I'm not a tuner, nor do I have exact specs. However, I have driven a number of manual and automatic cars, and talked with a lot of people about converting automatic to manual cars. My previous car, a Mitsubishi Galant, only was offered in America with an auto trans, but a lot of people swapped Eclipse transmissions in there, and they ended up dynoing higher due simply to the design of the manual, being lighter and more efficient. A quick google search gave me some general results of the auto doing 0-60 in about ~7 seconds, while the manual does it in ~6.6. (http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2005.html) As you said, modded autos end up beating modded manuals...remember the automatic transmission has much different gear ratios, individual and final, so of course as you mod it, it will perform much differently due to that. The auto has shorter gears, ending up with quicker acceleration, but lower top speed versus manuals. On a more personal note, I'm never buying an auto again. Even the sport shift models are a little disappointing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 good luck with that. all my information is public on this forum. logs are on the rallitek forum. i live in mukilteo wa. no matter what i post there will always be something wrong. if i posted a dyno from rallitek showing the same dyno plot of what i posted you guys would claim something was amiss. if i actually beat a stock or stage 1 manual you guys would blame the tune on the manual. i did start the clock at 2k rpms but the ap had a lag and picked up in the 3k range. your graph mentions peak numbers. why is mine wrong? I'm not trying to get on your case Richard nor am I saying you did anything wrong. I'm just trying to help you get a better understanding of your power curve. With the graph you posted it's hard to get an idea of the total "under curve" area, which is more important than the peak numbers.. It's not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergara Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Ok, so here is my take on it since I have two OB XTs one with a 5spd and one with a 5eat. The auto is quicker in the low end, really quick. The 5spd has great mid range depending on the gear. As for top end they are both good. The 5spd is more fun to drive as a whole but the auto is great for taking somebody from a complete stop. I hope this helps since I did not get over technical. Remember if you drive in traffic you want an auto. “Abandon hope, all ye who enter here” -Dante Alighieri http://youtu.be/lLFunBPgPOo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B. Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Almost every car forum I have ever been to, or any discussion about manual vs automatic trannys, always says that automatic transmissions have higher % of parasitic drivetrain loss. Now, I'm not a tuner, nor do I have exact specs. However, I have driven a number of manual and automatic cars, and talked with a lot of people about converting automatic to manual cars. My previous car, a Mitsubishi Galant, only was offered in America with an auto trans, but a lot of people swapped Eclipse transmissions in there, and they ended up dynoing higher due simply to the design of the manual, being lighter and more efficient. A quick google search gave me some general results of the auto doing 0-60 in about ~7 seconds, while the manual does it in ~6.6. (http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2005.html) gear ratios will change the times. id put money and say the auto was geared slower than the manual. 4speed auto vs 5speed manual? id say get a bigger turbo and use the power band in the longer gears. look at the 4eat vs manual wrx for similar things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throttlejockey Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 good luck with that. all my information is public on this forum. logs are on the rallitek forum. i live in mukilteo wa. no matter what i post there will always be something wrong. if i posted a dyno from rallitek showing the same dyno plot of what i posted you guys would claim something was amiss. if i actually beat a stock or stage 1 manual you guys would blame the tune on the manual. i did start the clock at 2k rpms but the ap had a lag and picked up in the 3k range. your graph mentions peak numbers. why is mine wrong? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnIZfn6XKF4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnIZfn6XKF4[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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