Hawk HPS pads just not cutting it... or are they?

[fzanetti]

Great info here guys...

 

I was in between bobcats and XP8's for my wagon daily driver...

 

It looks like I will stick with the former once my car is driven 90% on the streets and the rest at the track!

 

 

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[grimbeaver]

If you dont care about noise/dust then the AX6 might be an option to consider. I know some guys who run XP8s on the street too, but that is getting into fingernails on chalkboard territory.

 

Yes, those XP8's can be quite a head-turner sometimes. Here's a trick, when you're slowing down, get up close to the car in front and people will think its the other car!

[caramall2]

Flavio, Just be warned that at times, the XP8s can make a lot of noise at slower speeds when you're lightly coming to a stop. For me it's gone in cycles...not a bad at all, to at times being pretty loud. I LOVE the pads, and they blow away Bobcats as far as bite (IMHO...I've had both), but the noise thing can be a deal breaker for many. Do you have slotted rotors? I find that may help a little on the noise...not sure why, but when I slapped on my old stock rotors for a little while, it seemed to be worse--may have just been coincidence.

 

Maybe AX6 would be a happy compromise...would be interesting to see.

 

On the track, I'd defnitely at least go XP8 or higher (I've run 8s, now I run 12s), but that's my 2 cents.

 

If you want to use the XP8 front pads for the track, you could just buy that, bed them in properly, and then if they're too noisy, buy something else for the street, saving the XP8 for the track.

[Hugo L.]

I'm currently in Florida on vacation. Wheels are covered in dust. Felt as confident as ever driving 30 hours to come here.

 

However, I'm happy to report that noise is WAY down, and the pads will only squeal when heated. Otherwise, daily driving is just fine for my taste (just a hint of squealing).

 

When heated, they do squeal, but the bite is above my expectations, which are pretty high. Let's just say I drove my boss' 997 991 Carrera S 'vert and the brakes left me unimpressed.

[jim1969]

how are Satisfied pads?

[fzanetti]

Flavio, Just be warned that at times, the XP8s can make a lot of noise at slower speeds when you're lightly coming to a stop. For me it's gone in cycles...not a bad at all, to at times being pretty loud. I LOVE the pads, and they blow away Bobcats as far as bite (IMHO...I've had both), but the noise thing can be a deal breaker for many. Do you have slotted rotors? I find that may help a little on the noise...not sure why, but when I slapped on my old stock rotors for a little while, it seemed to be worse--may have just been coincidence.

 

Maybe AX6 would be a happy compromise...would be interesting to see.

 

On the track, I'd defnitely at least go XP8 or higher (I've run 8s, now I run 12s), but that's my 2 cents.

 

If you want to use the XP8 front pads for the track, you could just buy that, bed them in properly, and then if they're too noisy, buy something else for the street, saving the XP8 for the track.

 

Thanks for the input man...

 

i really need to make a decision, once my pads are going going going...

 

:lol:

 

I used bobcats on my S4 back in the days, they were very good, but not great... Guess I am looking for a category in between that will not compromise noise and extremely dust, again I only track my car 20% of the time....

 

Anyone with feedback on those AX6's???

 

Thanks much guys!!!

 

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[Wangspeed]

How are you guys overdriving HPS on the street? That's what I want to know.

 

I've run HPS on multiple cars, and it's a fine street pad. I hate pads that have too much initial bite. It's why I loathe most of the Carbotech race pads.

 

Initial bite is not an appropriate measurement of stopping power. I'll take linear mu pads over weirdo curves any day of the week. Twice on Sundays.

 

Warren

[iNVAR]

How are you guys overdriving HPS on the street? That's what I want to know.

 

I've run HPS on multiple cars, and it's a fine street pad. I hate pads that have too much initial bite. It's why I loathe most of the Carbotech race pads.

 

Initial bite is not an appropriate measurement of stopping power. I'll take linear mu pads over weirdo curves any day of the week. Twice on Sundays.

 

Warren

^^^ +1

 

I mentioned exactly that about a page or so ago and people ignored me.

[hadvw]

How are you guys overdriving HPS on the street? That's what I want to know.

 

I've run HPS on multiple cars, and it's a fine street pad. I hate pads that have too much initial bite. It's why I loathe most of the Carbotech race pads.

 

Initial bite is not an appropriate measurement of stopping power. I'll take linear mu pads over weirdo curves any day of the week. Twice on Sundays.

 

Warren

 

I can see where you're coming from.

 

BUT, if you also drive other cars on a regular basis which have stock pads with much higher initial bite (or people who drive such cars drive your car), the HPS will feel like a really lousy pad, instead of like one you can easily modulate to those other people (and you possibly).

 

Examples: my wife's 05 Mazda3 had HUGE initial bite. I had to tap the pedal to start stopping, and then it seemed relatively linear, although I didn't drive it enough to be sure. Same with our '08 Grand Caravan.

 

Quote from my in-laws who had to drive our car back from the airport once (used to driving Buicks): once we "found" the brakes, everything was ok...

 

Not overdriving the HPS per se (although see my post about very uneven wear earlier). Just feeling a little uneasy about their seemingly weak initial bite.

[Wangspeed]

I hate brakes that have too much initial bite. It makes it harder to gently modulate the brake. Not enough bite? Press the pedal harder

 

I've autocrossed on HPS, and it's fine even for that. Maybe a little toasty on heavier cars by the last run, but still okay. Now, if you want to bitch about how dusty HPS are, I'm with you on that

 

Warren

[racerdave]

It´s not overdriving the HPS... it´s the weak initial bite, plus the somewhat non-linear feel. I suppose you could consider them linear, in that there´s nothing, there´s nothing, there´s nothing... oh, here it comes in a linear fashion... finally.

 

IMHO, there´s a decent zone of mush in and just beyond initial bite. Once a heated up a bit, they feel much better, with good initial bite and linearity. But it shouldn´t take a few hard stops for them to feel that way.

 

I don´t hate the HPS, but they feel like two different pads after 2-3 hard stops. That I don´t like.

 

Maybe I´ll try the AX6 next time around, if I don´t go for the Bobcats.

[iNVAR]

But it shouldn´t take a few hard stops for them to feel that way.

Yes, it should... at least that's how I've always understand how things work. Aggressive pads are supposed to have to be warmed up before they get to optimal operating temperature. If you have a pad that responds well at low temperatures and before warming up, chances are that at higher temperatures, it will NOT respond as well as another pad that may not "bite" as well at low temperatures.

 

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

 

Therefore - there is no such thing as an ideal "all around" brake pad. The friction material that is quiet and functions well at relatively low temperatures around town will not stop the car that is driven hard. If you attempt to drive many cars hard with the OEM pads, you will experience pad fade, friction material transfer and fluid boiling - end of discussion. The true racing pad, used under normal conditions will be noisy and will not work well at low temperatures around town.

 

 

 

Ideally, in order to avoid either putting up with squealing brakes that will not stop the car well around town or with pad fade on the track or coming down the mountain at speed, we should change pads before indulging in vigorous automotive exercise. No one does. The question remains, what pads should be used in high performance street cars - relatively low temperature street pads or high temperature race pads? Strangely enough, in my opinion, the answer is a high performance street pad with good low temperature characteristics. The reason is simple: If we are driving really hard and begin to run into trouble, either with pad fade or boiling fluid (or both), the condition(s) comes on gradually enough to allow us to simply modify our driving style to compensate. On the other hand, should an emergency occur when the brakes are

cold, the high temperature pad is simply not going to stop the car. As an example, during the mid 1960s, those of us at Shelby American did not drive GT 350 or GT 500 Mustangs as company cars simply because they were equipped with Raybestos M-19 racing pads and none of our wives could push on the brake pedal hard enough to stop the car in normal driving.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

Another thing I'm curious about... do the other pads that people mention here that are less "mushy" have a teflon shim attached to the back of the pad like the Hawk HPS do?

[racerdave]

I´m not hungry for cake.

 

I´m looking for a good street pad. More bite than stock. I can deal with some noise. At this point, I´m not autocrossing (where multiple drivers will stress the pads) or tracking it.

 

The HPS... well, I don´t think it does either 1) stop the car great when cold, or 2) deal with heat very well. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

 

Perhaps Bobcats are the next on the list for me.

 

All of this stuff is personal preference. Boxers or briefs? Depends...

[vet]

Nobody mentions Endless SSM's, is that just cause of the high price?

Thought they were highly regarded.

[nx2000]

What about the EBC pads? Anyone ever tried those?

[Wangspeed]

What about the EBC pads? Anyone ever tried those?

 

Run and hide from them.

 

Warren

[Th3Franz]

Nobody mentions Endless SSM's, is that just cause of the high price?

Thought they were highly regarded.

 

Endless SSM are expensive, handle heat pretty well, quiet, no dust, low initial bite. The HPS have better initial bite, are cheaper, and dust more. SSM are good for the street but don't expect much more than that from them.

[Richard B.]

My mother has a 94 BMW 525i with OEM-0style replacement pads, slightly more aggressive than stock. The initial bite when you tap on the pedal will send you through the windshield.

 

I have properly installed and bedded in Hawk HPS on my LGT. The initial bite isn't anywhere near as harsh. But it remains firm like it's supposed to. But I don't think for a second that means her car brakes better than mine. Having a strong initial bite doesn't mean that the car is going to stop sooner or any more consistently than another car with less initial bite.

 

I prefer having the pedal this way. And also, I never had any problems with the brakes not feeling responsive in the cold... and it has dropped down to significantly below freezing here before.

 

The only thing that bothered me originally was that the pedal felt mushy... but the mushiness has been reduced to acceptable levels now.

 

yup.

 

 

thats how i feel as well. driven a few cars with serious initial bite then be left with nothing. i love the progression attitude and its easy to feel the thresh hold braking in the legacy on ice or pavement.

 

the pads do work. slam on the brakes hard enough and the moon roof shade closes.

 

was going down the mukilteo hill to the park and experienced zero brake fade and no change in pedal travel. solid the whole way down. lots of stop and go.

[Richard B.]

 

Another thing I'm curious about... do the other pads that people mention here that are less "mushy" have a teflon shim attached to the back of the pad like the Hawk HPS do?

 

my pedal got firmer after the hps. the pads to in fact grip better than stocks.

 

i have read on this forum that the cause may be stock shims and to discard those.

[iNVAR]

Yeah, that's the exact same experience I had. The HPS pads definitely made the pedal feel firmer. The only shims I kept from the stock pads were the shiny aluminum ones. The other ones were deteriorated anyway so I scrapped them.

[Hugo L.]

I don't run shims. Loving the XP8s so far. But yeah, dust and noise are up.

[Richard B.]

Yeah, that's the exact same experience I had. The HPS pads definitely made the pedal feel firmer. The only shims I kept from the stock pads were the shiny aluminum ones. The other ones were deteriorated anyway so I scrapped them.

 

 

i am almost certain i had to relearn the brakes. i was hitting them too hard when they were first installed.

[vet]

I don't run shims. Loving the XP8s so far. But yeah, dust and noise are up.

 

No shims = better pedal feel?

[Wangspeed]

The shims are too thin to make a difference. Extra thick ones will actually make the pedal feel better as the pad wears down.

 

I'm gonna run a set of titanium shims, but I have Brembos, so they're easy to find.

 

Warren

[iNVAR]

The shims are too thin to make a difference. Extra thick ones will actually make the pedal feel better as the pad wears down.

Why do you say that? I would think that having a set of teflon shims would make the pedal feel mushier due to compressibility and the shims flexing somewhat forcing the pistons back into the calipers, regardless of how much of the pad you have worn. There isn't more pedal travel when your pads are worn so it's not like the shims are filling in any space to reduce pedal travel.