GM to pull the plug on Pontiac

[iyalla]

What's funny is that all those Saturn rebadged cars sell A LOT in Europe... Astra was one the best selling vehicles there, ahead of the Golf, BMW 1 series, etc...

 

I know it's not the same completely car as it's sold here, but if you go out there and drive a Saturn Astra, you will see that it's probably tighter and more agile than a regular Legacy or an Impreza... I know FWD< etc etc etc but for the most people FWD cars sell a lot, we are not talking about the enthusiast people here...

 

Aura is the rebadged Opel/Vaxhaul Vectra and also a strong seller in Europe... The problem boils down to the kind of cars Americans are used to purchase, and the majority of cars are really sold in rural communities where people rather have a F-150 or Silverado instead of a hatchback...

 

Pure simple!

 

P.S. I would take anyday an Astra over a Golf, Civic, Corola, etc etc etc...

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

 

I don't think so. Americans are buying Civics, Accords, Corollas, Camrys, Sentras and Altimas by the millions. The problem is not that Americans don't like those types of cars the problem as I see it is that people don't trust GM, Ford or Chrysler to build family sedans worth a damn.

The kind of buyer that buys the cars I mentioned above really likes the fact that he or she can trace the roots of his Accord all the way back to the early 80's. That gives him confidence that his car will never be an orphan, or sold off to India, or killed off completely. It might make no sense to some but trust me its important. The Astra has been a main staple in Europe for years, almost as long as the Accord. Its no surprise that it is selling well there.

 

Here in America the Astra just looks like another attempt by an idiotic company to introduce yet another model which they'll get rid off in 5-10 years. Its frustrating and you can't blame people for saying no thanks don't want to deal with that thank you very much!

 

I agree with you, its a shame because cars like the G8, Astra and Aura are really nice cars and nothing like the stuff GM has been passing as sedans for the past 20 years here in the USA. Its just too late unfortunately and now people won't even give them a try because they don't know if the company will even exist when they come in for their 30k service

[ur a bus]

What does it say when me, someone who spends quite a bit of time reading about cars, doesn't even know the G3 existed.

 

That you have never visited Mexico? The G3 has been on sale there for a while. The Aveo sedan wears the Pontiac split grille very well, IMHO.

 

-- Steve

[fishbone]

The kind of buyer that buys the cars I mentioned above really likes the fact that he or she can trace the roots of his Accord all the way back to the early 80's. That gives him confidence that his car will never be an orphan, or sold off to India, or killed off completely. It might make no sense to some but trust me its important. The Astra has been a main staple in Europe for years, almost as long as the Accord. Its no surprise that it is selling well there.

That is exactly what I've been thinking years ago in relation to all the models the Big 3 come up with. In my opinion they whored themselves in an attempt to grab as much market as they could get their gritty hands on and in turn did nothing but dillute their image. Those model cars that crop up like mushrooms after a rain only to disappear a year or two later ... Come on. Hooray for typical American consumerism mentality with little to no regard to tradition.

[fishbone]

Oh, and the Chevy Aveo came from Daewoo Kalos. Same car.

[psi365]

I don't think so. Americans are buying Civics, Accords, Corollas, Camrys, Sentras and Altimas by the millions. The problem is not that Americans don't like those types of cars the problem as I see it is that people don't trust GM, Ford or Chrysler to build family sedans worth a damn.

The kind of buyer that buys the cars I mentioned above really likes the fact that he or she can trace the roots of his Accord all the way back to the early 80's. That gives him confidence that his car will never be an orphan, or sold off to India, or killed off completely. It might make no sense to some but trust me its important. The Astra has been a main staple in Europe for years, almost as long as the Accord. Its no surprise that it is selling well there.

 

 

I think there are several reasons why the big three are in as much trouble as they are in. First off the unions got way to greedy and refuse to back down on anything. A guy pushing a broom shouldn't be making $30 an hour. Line workers at import factories in the US are making just a little bit more then that.

 

I think a lot of the trust issues with the big three were caused by cars of the 70s, 80s, and 90s. The big three have been coasting for so long and pulling at those "buy american" heart strings for so long they lost their edge. I know way to many people who know that a domestic car isn't the best will still buy one cause "it's american." They refuse to even look at anything not made by the big three. Then the 80s hit and TB# built nothing but garbage. Then the 90s rolled around and these two smallish companies in the US started getting a lot bigger....Toyota and Honda. TB3 thought they could continue to coast on a new rising segment called SUVs and forget about cheap, well made, family sedans. Build trucks cause that's what they want, forget about hybrids, and cheaper sedans.

 

Well here we are now and they are just beginning to look at the mistake they made by bringing cars from their overseas divisions, but dress them up a little different. Even though given a choice most people would got for the euro look more, they still tweaked them and now still try to pull at the heart strings to help them survive.

 

So who do we blame? The CEOs of those companies? How can you when they seem to get a new one every 3 or so years. By the time they could be any sort of effective they grab their golden parachute and get out. So now the new guy is stuck with the old guy's problems in which he'll spend his 2-3 years trying to sort through it only to do the same thing. Nothing ever gets changed or fixed and the problems only get worse.

 

As far a GM restructuring this is the way I see it:

 

Chevrolet

Only family cars, hybrids, minivans. They loose the Camaro, Corvette, and trucks.

 

Buick

The rights/trademarks get leased to China, but they are no longer sold in the US. For all purpose in the US Buick is dead.

 

Pontiac

Performance division only. Do a quick rehash and the Camaro becomes a Firebird/ T/A. Even though the purists will cry, the Corvette now becomes a Pontiac. Think of Pontiac becomes the same as SRT is for Chrysler.

 

GMC

Trucks/Suvs and that's it.

 

Saturn

Goes back to its roots. They make 3 different types of cars in two different trim levels. No suvs anymore. Basically make into a Scion type brand.

 

Cadillac

Luxury cars only. No more "V" cars, and say goodbye to SUVs.

 

If it isn't on that list, that brand is dead in the US.

[iyalla]

^^^One things for sure, 2009 is going to be a year to remember for the Big 3, especially GM and Chrysler.

[fzanetti]

GM's Doomed Future

Jerry Flint, 04.16.09, 06:00 PM EDT Forbes Magazine dated May 11, 2009

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0511/038-autos-general-motors-doomed-future.html

 

Bankrupt or not, the automaker will keep running, but as a shrunken, depressed company.

 

Don't wonder about General Motors; its future is set. With or without a bankruptcy proceeding, the company will struggle on. But there will be no quick return to greatness or even a return to mediocrity.

 

The government will continue to support GM for the next three years and eight months. The decisions will be made in the White House and will be political. Five midwestern states will be decisive in the next presidential election, and they might be hard to carry if the party in power doesn't save some Rust Belt jobs. But after the next election GM will be largely on its own.

 

GM's vehicles are improving, but that really doesn't make much difference. The product improvement is too little and too late. GM's market share is dropping every month with the bankruptcy talk: It went from 19% in January to 18.4% in February and 18.1% in March. My guess is 13% by December. GM may be outsold by Toyota and even Ford before the year is over.

 

The problems are just too great for this management--and, to be fair, maybe any management--to overcome. There are many: buyers' fears about the company's future; the lack of dealer credit; the weakness of finance arm GMAC, which was severely damaged by subprime mortgages; the bondholder debt; the rush of new vehicles by richer foreign companies from Japan, Germany and Korea; and the collapse of the overseas empire in Europe. Management stumbles from crisis to crisis, bowing to whatever thought comes from Washington, whether sensible or foolish.

 

Some of Washington's thoughts are downright silly. No such bankruptcy will ever be "surgical," as reports have suggested. Delphi, GM's parts supplier, has been mired in Chapter 11 for four years. GM's case will probably go to the Supreme Court at least once.

 

Then there is the talk about splitting GM into a good company and a bad one. The presumably viable parts--Chevy, Cadillac, GM China, the best plants--would go to Good GM. The bad parts--the postretirement obligations, the old plants, the brands like Saturn to be discarded or sold off to dreamers--would go into Bad GM, which the courts would play with forever.

 

With politicians in the driver's seat this could get really interesting. If "good" means profitable, then this part of the company will be making gas-guzzlers like Suburbans, Cadillac Escalades and full-size pickups. But in the Obama Administration gas-guzzling is bad and low-margin small cars are saintly. So Washington will find some way to wreck even the good half of the company by ordering it to make more small cars and fewer big ones.

 

A few years from now the surviving parts of this has-been will be down to a 10% share of the market, with lots of its vehicles being bought by the government. That sounds pessimistic given that, as of this morning, GM is the largest vehicle seller in North America. My calculation is based on the expectation that Chevrolet and Cadillac, which now get 12% of the market, are all that will be left of the once great company.

 

GM's new management says it will abandon Saturn, Saab, Hummer and most of Pontiac. There isn't much left of Buick (only 20,534 vehicles sold in three months), and gmc will be squeezed by fuel standards for its pickups. So it's hard to see the Buick-Pontiac-gmc dealer group surviving.

 

The government debt will never be repaid. The bondholders will lose their investments--unless they are covered by credit default swaps from aig, and then our Treasury Department will see they get 100 cents on the dollar. As for the uaw contact: No matter what you hear about sacrifices, the union won't give back anything real. Democratic Administrations just don't pick the pockets of their union supporters.

 

So why do I support aid to GM? Maybe because I realize I could be wrong, and government money will be enough to make GM competitive again. Maybe I've got a soft spot for Detroit, where I grew up, and I realize that the Midwest economy would be set back 15 years if GM shut down. Maybe it's just that I think this company and its workers deserve a break more than those banks do.

 

Someday a new Moses might come out of the wilderness and rebuild this company. He will gather a band around him like the greats of that old GM: Alfred Sloan and Charles Kettering, Charles Nash and Walter Chrysler (yes, they were GM men first), William Knudsen and Ed Cole. But fighters like these aren't the leaders that a government would choose. If GM is reborn, it won't be in my lifetime.

 

Jerry Flint, a former Forbes Senior Editor, has covered the automobile industry since 1958. Visit his homepage at http://www.forbes.com/flint.

 

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[iyalla]

Breaking News --- Chrysler about to declare bankruptcy today.

[psi365]

To me the saddest part is at least GM was trying. Maybe not as much as they could, but they did start to bring over some of their nicer euro cars. THe G8 is a really nice looking car. If it was awd I would be hard pressed to trade in my LGT for one right now. I'm still kinda wanting to trade in my LGT for a G8 Gt or GXP. I've even been thinking about picking a used GTO up for a fun car and keeping the LGT.

 

Now Chrysler on the other hand has been bordering bankrupt for far to long. They've been bailed out in the 80s. They've bounced from partner to partner how many times now and still been unable to turn a profit.

 

If anything maybe the government should let Chrysler and GM merge. At least all the bailout money would be going to the same place.

[Guest]

Breaking News --- Chrysler about to declare bankruptcy today.

 

Good riddance. Only Jeep is worth saving, the rest of this crap company should die.

[05GT Guru]

Good riddance. Only Jeep is worth saving, the rest of this crap company should die.

 

I like the srt-8 cars.

[fzanetti]

Breaking News --- Chrysler about to declare bankruptcy today.

 

 

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090429/CARNEWS/904299977

 

 

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[fishbone]

Partnership with Fiat. I'm sure those guys will find the secret to success that past partnerships (Benz, anyone?) were not able to. What do the eye-talians at Fiat know that the krautz at Mercedez did not?

[fzanetti]

Partnership with Fiat. I'm sure those guys will find the secret to success that past partnerships (Benz, anyone?) were not able to. What do the eye-talians at Fiat know that the krautz at Mercedez did not?

 

This will not be your regular Daimler/Chrysler partnership... it will be a cheap entrance for FIAT in the American market... Plus there a lot of stakes involved, Chrysler can utilize the network FIAT has in the world (one of the largest worldwide automakers btw), and with this they can really play a major role on aggregation...

 

 

Look at PSA - Peugeot and Citroen also Renault and Nissan....

 

This is the future of the auto industry...

 

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[iyalla]

 

This is the future of the auto industry...

 

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

 

That is pretty much what the Fiat CEO said. He believes there should be only 5 or 6 car companies to serve the entire planet.

[fishbone]

Well, I wish Fiat and Chrysler the best of luck.

And I happen to agree with Fiat's CEO, somewhat. The market should and will adjust itself. It will shed itself of the useless fat.

[05GT Guru]

Well, I wish Fiat and Chrysler the best of luck.

And I happen to agree with Fiat's CEO, somewhat. The market should and will adjust itself. It will shed itself of the useless fat.

 

And in doing so will shed itself of variety. Yes the 5 world car makers could make many different kinds of cars but they are still run by the same people and designed by the same people so there will never be new minds thinking differently creating differently.

[ehsnils]

Partnership with Fiat. I'm sure those guys will find the secret to success that past partnerships (Benz, anyone?) were not able to. What do the eye-talians at Fiat know that the krautz at Mercedez did not?

 

Soon all Chryslers will be Fiat panda variations.

 

Anyway - since it's Italians that are involved - there will be a different approach when it comes to handling the union.

[mustangendsley]

good one less crap car on the road.

[LegGTLT]

So is this my safe haven thread for wanting a G8 GT?

 

I've been seeing them around more and more and reading about them more and more. I really like them. I honestly don't know why cause I need/want AWD around here... but damn... I really like them.

[05GT Guru]

So is this my safe haven thread for wanting a G8 GT?

 

I've been seeing them around more and more and reading about them more and more. I really like them. I honestly don't know why cause I need/want AWD around here... but damn... I really like them.

 

They are nice cars all around.

[LegGTLT]

Someone just tried to tell me recently that I would be so dissapointed in the Fuel Economy. Then I looked it up......15/24 for the G8 GT vs. 17/24 for LGT.

 

I would miss the control of the AWD and pushing the limits without worrying... but damn... this one is on sale at $29k locally (before rebate of $3k), BRAND NEW.

[05GT Guru]

Someone just tried to tell me recently that I would be so dissapointed in the Fuel Economy. Then I looked it up......15/24 for the G8 GT vs. 17/24 for LGT.

 

I would miss the control of the AWD and pushing the limits without worrying... but damn... this one is on sale at $29k locally (before rebate of $3k), BRAND NEW.

 

There are already people getting damn near 30mpg freeway with the g8 gt. Some of the slightly used 08s are already going for 23k around here

[LegGTLT]

I know, it dives in value like an LGT.

[fishbone]

And in doing so will shed itself of variety. Yes the 5 world car makers could make many different kinds of cars but they are still run by the same people and designed by the same people so there will never be new minds thinking differently creating differently.

Note that I said shed proverbial fat, as in useless crap, such as overlapping models in the line-up simply because the supposed market segments are made up of brand snobs.