Prodrive Install and Erratic Boost

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

So I installed my Prodrive BCS last night, and went out this morning to tweak my tune using StreetTuner. As I was tweaking my wastegate settings I did a 3rd gear pull where I got an odd boost curve (log attached). The boost climbs as expected till about 12.5psi, drops back down to 10.4psi, and then climbs straight up to my target. This happened on two different pulls (one showed a larger hiccup than the other).

 

Prior to this run, my boost curve was fine on lower wastegate settings. With a wastegate target of 50 across the board, the curve was fine. With a wastegate target of 60 I had a small hiccup, and with a wastegate of 90 in the spool-up area (and 60 everywhere else) I had a large hiccup. Any thoughts? Could this be mechanical or is there some tune setting that I'm missing.

TUNER_090420071719.csv

[boostsr20]

Looks like the turbo dynamics could use some tweaking.

[mickeyd2005]

Try logging with romraider. Log:

 

rpm

load (2-byte)

wgdc

mrp (4-byte)

knock sum

TD integral

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

Here's a RomRaider log. I always have issues with this logger though - it cut's out when I do a full throttle pull. Nonetheless, you can see in the log that boost fluctuates up and down as it hits about 15psi.

romraiderlog_20090404_205207.csv

[mickeyd2005]

That's not a WOT log.

 

You will need to look at the target boost. For that throttle setting, your target boost is either too low or your WGDC initial is too high.

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

That is a WOT run. My boost targets and wastegate settings are similar to what I was running on the stock BCS, and I never had any boost fluctuation issues.

 

Here are my boost targets and wastegate low values.

 

0 10 20 25 30 35 45 80

- - - - 0.10 0.10 1.99 4.00 2,250

0.77 0.77 0.77 0.77 1.95 2.57 5.26 7.60 2,500

0.77 0.77 1.84 2.18 3.81 5.05 8.51 11.19 2,750

0.77 0.77 2.92 3.60 5.64 7.54 11.75 14.81 3,000

0.77 0.77 4.00 5.01 7.50 10.01 15.00 18.40 3,250

0.77 0.77 4.00 5.01 7.50 10.01 15.00 22.00 3,500

0.77 0.77 4.00 5.01 7.50 10.01 15.00 22.50 3,750

0.77 0.77 4.00 5.01 7.50 10.01 15.00 22.50 4,200

0.77 0.77 3.19 4.16 6.86 9.59 15.00 22.35 4,800

0.77 0.77 2.40 3.31 6.15 9.01 14.69 22.17 5,400

0.77 0.77 1.59 2.44 5.43 8.43 14.40 22.02 6,000

0.77 0.77 0.77 1.59 4.72 7.85 14.09 21.80 6,800

 

0 10 20 25 30 35 45 80

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 2,250

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 2,500

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 2,750

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 3,000

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 3,250

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 3,500

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 3,750

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 4,200

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 5,000

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 6,000

50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 50.00 6,800

 

These are the installation instructions I followed - I'm assuming I have things connected correctly.

 

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/prodrive-3port-boost-control-solenoid-pi-2187.html?image=1

[mickeyd2005]

If the log in post #4 is a WOT run then you need to look at your alternate tables.

 

Look at the WGDC between 2000 and 3000 rpm. Compare them to the the log in post #1.

[mickeyd2005]

Look how low your WGDC is in the 2nd log.

[bugblatterbeast]

These are the installation instructions I followed - I'm assuming I have things connected correctly.

 

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/prodrive-3port-boost-control-solenoid-pi-2187.html?image=1

 

did you remove the pill?

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

Yes - the pill has been removed.

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

Here's the results of a few more logs this morning after I reflashed my car and made a few more adjustments. I'm thinking this is a mechanical problem and not a tune problem - either the wastegate or the solenoid itself.

 

http://www3.sympatico.ca/dwarren12/Erratic%20Boost%20Graph.JPG

 

The first few 3rd gear pulls I did were fine. I then did a 4th gear pull (run 4 above), and then another 3rd gear pull (run 5 above), and both displayed the erratic boost again. No changes were made between these 3 runs to my tune. Attached are the logs.

 

I think I may just replace the Prodrive BCS with the stock BCS and hope it fixes things unless anyone else has some suggestions.

Problem Log - Erratic Boost.csv

[bugblatterbeast]

the prodrive solenoid really bumps up the control slopes. like MickeyD said, your gains or initial guesses are likely off. I'd rule out mechanical problems first (seeing as the BCS was swapped) by zeroing the proportional and integral gains. then take a series of pulls at 10, 20, 30 .... 70 percent WGDC for the initial table (set the max higher and temporarily zero the temp comps). once you have the initial guesses, set the initial table such that the entries cause the system to settle ~1psi lower than target during a high gear pull. once that is done, add proportional till you get roughly 3-5% boost overshoot on ramp. at that point, back out proportional by 10% and add integral gain till you get 3% overshoot.

 

most prefer zero overshoot. for my own work I usually allow 3% overshoot as you can get faster transient settling if you allow some overshoot.

 

I'm in the KW area next week if you need a hand.

[Ridgeracer]

Didn't see it mentioned but after all of the above, how do you set WGDC max table??

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll give that a try and see if things improve. I understand that my settings are likely off, but what I find very odd is the fact that boost behaves differently from pull to pull with no underlying changes to the tune and wastegate settings.

[bugblatterbeast]

Didn't see it mentioned but after all of the above, how do you set WGDC max table??

 

there are a few different strategies for the max WGDC. if the initial guesses and gains are set correctly, you don't even need to use max WGDC. however, it is a good practice to set some value there in case the hose to the MAP sensor pops off. I usually use the slope of the WGDC vs steady state pressure curve to extrapolate a point a couple psi higher than target.

[Ridgeracer]

thx bugblatterbeast....I never realized it was that straight forward to set up boost control. Granted you have to do a few pulls to get it right. Could I use the above process for setting up an EWG??

[mickeyd2005]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll give that a try and see if things improve. I understand that my settings are likely off, but what I find very odd is the fact that boost behaves differently from pull to pull with no underlying changes to the tune and wastegate settings.

 

Did you see my post #8?

 

Doesn't it bother you that your WOT WGDC varies from pull to pull that much?

 

I'm fairly sure it's the alternate WGDC table.

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

Bear in mind that my wastegate settings were changed after that first log was taken. In the first log my wastegate low values were 90 up until about 3250 rpms, then targeted 60 afterwards I believe. In the second log, my wastegate low values were flat across the board at 40 or 50.

 

If you focus on the second log only and specifically runs 3 and 5, you will see that my wastegate values are identical yet my boost drops and hesitates. Nothing in my tune changed there, both runs were taken about 2 or 3 minutes apart, and both were in third gear. No timing was pulled in either run and no knock was logged.

 

http://www3.sympatico.ca/dwarren12/Erratic%20Boost%202.JPG

 

I will try what has been suggested and see if that works, but I don't see how the tune could be impacting what is seen above.

[mickeyd2005]

Okay. I see what you are saying. I didn't realize that you had changed your tune.

[bugblatterbeast]

Bear in mind that my wastegate settings were changed after that first log was taken. In the first log my wastegate low values were 90 up until about 3250 rpms, then targeted 60 afterwards I believe. In the second log, my wastegate low values were flat across the board at 40 or 50.

 

If you focus on the second log only and specifically runs 3 and 5, you will see that my wastegate values are identical yet my boost drops and hesitates. Nothing in my tune changed there, both runs were taken about 2 or 3 minutes apart, and both were in third gear. No timing was pulled in either run and no knock was logged.

 

http://www3.sympatico.ca/dwarren12/Erratic%20Boost%202.JPG

 

I will try what has been suggested and see if that works, but I don't see how the tune could be impacting what is seen above.

 

Can you log AVCS to see if it is the same run to run? If it is, can you try putting some tape on the ouside of the intake hose to see if it is sucking shut partially?

[bugblatterbeast]

thx bugblatterbeast....I never realized it was that straight forward to set up boost control. Granted you have to do a few pulls to get it right. Could I use the above process for setting up an EWG??

 

The process would essentially be the same.

 

Depending on the design of the EWG, it might be simpler. On the better EWG, the valve is implemented as a butterfly type assembly so the turbine pressure differential doesn't apply any force on the actuator. This allows the WGDC to remain more constant for a given boost target as the actuator does not need to compensate for an increasing force on the valve as flows go up.

[Legacy_GT_Pilot]

Update. I went back to the stock BCS tonight and my previous tune. I ran this tune for the better part of a year with no boost issues.

 

The hesitation is still there on a third gear pull so I'm thinking I now have a problem with my actuator. When i did the Prodrive install, I unbolted the actuator to enable easier access to the nipple but did not unbolt the the end of the arm. My question is how fragile is the actuator. Would a little bit of movement while I was installing the vacuum hose mess something up? Secondly would the AVO actuator upgrade for the VF40 fit a deadbolt 20G?

 

Any other thoughts on the problem?

[Ridgeracer]

You can test the actuator with the same vacuum hose and a pressure test. Make sure its not leaking and it opens consistently at the correct spring pressure.

 

Bugblatterbeast and mickeyd2005....thx for the tip on the this subject and EWG setup/tuning.

[bugblatterbeast]

the actuator should tolerate a bit of handling unless it has been cooked. when you re-installed the actuator, did you check that the rod is still aligned and moves without sticking?

 

You can check the actuator pretty easily by hooking up a hand pump to it.

[LittleBlueGT]

Update. I went back to the stock BCS tonight and my previous tune. I ran this tune for the better part of a year with no boost issues.

 

The hesitation is still there on a third gear pull so I'm thinking I now have a problem with my actuator. When i did the Prodrive install, I unbolted the actuator to enable easier access to the nipple but did not unbolt the the end of the arm. My question is how fragile is the actuator. Would a little bit of movement while I was installing the vacuum hose mess something up? Secondly would the AVO actuator upgrade for the VF40 fit a deadbolt 20G?

 

Any other thoughts on the problem?

 

The boost plots you showed also lead me to think actuator problem.

 

I would NOT get an AVO actuator. It moves too little IMO (vs OEM style actuator) to control boost, especially at high rpm transitions (like shifting from 3rd to 4th WOT).

 

It still puzzles me why you think you can get better performance from this. I really don't think your car has much performance left to give (this side of a FMIC, or EWG or race gas).