lepich Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I have two logs; one before meth was installed, one after.. My butt dyno tells me that I have more push with WI, as excpected. More timing, more boost. However, on logs I see less engine load (direct), less MAF. Is engine load just misleading, or my butt duno lies? Was always thinking more load = more power.Meth_run.csvNo_Meth_run.csv There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Do 2 runs from 2000-redline. I just timed your 3500-4000 RPM on both runs and the no meth was way quicker. Do some more logs. FWIW you are running too much boost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Too much boost? What is wrong with it? usually, less boost - less power (same turbo). So, how Hp is being calculated? no timing considered? I have 6 degrees more with meth! There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgeracer Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Agreed with Spec B. No meth log has way too much boost towards redline for a VF40. Can you log knock sum instead of FLKC? Do that for both logs. Use the same log parameters as the meth log but swap knock sum for FLKC.. "Gimme mines Balboa...Gimme mines".....Clubber Lang - Mr. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgeracer Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Too much boost? What is wrong with it? usually, less boost - less power (same turbo). So, how Hp is being calculated? no timing considered? I have 6 degrees more with meth! Not if the turbo is blowing hot air from being run too far out of it's efficiency range.. "Gimme mines Balboa...Gimme mines".....Clubber Lang - Mr. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 the stock turbo cannot handle much more boost than I run in the high end..it creates too much heat trying to maintain the boost levels you are running. There comes a point where high boost/hot air makes less power than the low boost/cooler air. With my setup with FMIC I target: 18.5 @ 2600-4800 16.8 @ 4800-5200 15.3 @ 5200-5600 13.7 @ 5600-6000 11.5 @ 6000-6400 10.5 @ 6400+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Ok, I see your point. Will lower it down, see what happened. As for knock sum - I had it in the log, removed before posting. Was no knock in both. some learned FKC with meth from a previous run. I think my problem migh be a low MAF. Because of the boost, or some other reason.. I did not change AVSC for meth, only timing and fuel. Too much fuel? LC-1 shows 11.7-11.5, which should be just OK. LV is happy too. There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Spec B, thanks for the numbers. After 4800 RPM I have about the same.. But below this.. yes, my 19psi target for 3800 may be too much, especially with a stock TMIC. So, with lower boost, I could increase timing + run leaner, right? There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 BTW, occasionally i run 19 psi of boost without WI, and had 3.2 load with it ( 40F otside) I agree that lees boost would be better (70F outside) , but i think such low load is not because of a boost alone. There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostsr20 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Boost isn't your problem. The area your logs show is very comparable to what I ran on the stock turbo. Something is wrong with your meth tune and/or setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy_GT_Pilot Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Your timing is a little higher than what others typically run at peak torque - me included. I just posted a log in another thread - take a look at it for reference purposes. I'm running meth as well but have a larger turbo that can hold more boost. As already mentioned do a few more logs from 2500 - 7000 (with and without meth) logging rpm, total timing, knock, boost and load. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2368007#post2368007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 Legacy_GT_Pilot, thanks for the info. What is your difference in OP fuleing map compare to w/o meth? can you post just a difference? I was using this post as a tuning guide for a meth: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1504515&highlight=meth+tuning There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 Got the logs.. All run was on a 2nd gear, did not have enough room for a 3rd, but they should give you an idea.. It was about 60 outside. I forgot to log a boost, but it was almost maxed out for each setup - 18 target for no meth, 19 - for a meth. I can't get correct dyno on airboy's spreadsheet ( it show more then 400 hp and tq:lol: ), but nujmbers are bigger with a meth.. So, what guys do you think? BTW, I run rubbing alcohol (50%), meth (15%) and the rest is water. Plan to switch to a meth when find it locally.meth_1.csvmeth_2.csvno_meth1.csvno_meth2.csv There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Got the logs.. All run was on a 2nd gear, did not have enough room for a 3rd, but they should give you an idea.. It was about 60 outside. I forgot to log a boost, but it was almost maxed out for each setup - 18 target for no meth, 19 - for a meth. I can't get correct dyno on airboy's spreadsheet ( it show more then 400 hp and tq:lol: ), but nujmbers are bigger with a meth.. So, what guys do you think? BTW, I run rubbing alcohol (40%), meth (15%) and the rest is water. Plan to switch to a meth when find it locally. You should do 3rd gear logs, especially if trying to get accurate dyno numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 I do not need absolute dyno numbers.. need to see gains/loos from Meth only. It should be comparable results, with the same runs on 2-nd, with and without meth. Here is my tune differences for meth, it might be interesting to see for you guys: There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Airboy's sheet does not work with automatic (although I think MickeyD created a sheet that works with the auto). All you need to do to get a general idea of which tune is making more power is to pick an RPM range in the log(s)(lets say 3000-6000). Go to the row that is closest to 6000 RPM and note the time stamp...go to the row closest to 3000 and note the time stamp. Then subtract the 3K time stamp from the 6K time stamp. Assuming you are using the same stretch of road for your logs, the one with the lower elapsed time is the quicker tune. I just did this on Meth run 2 and no meth run 2 and the times are almost exactly the same, with very slight edge to the meth map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 I think latest Airboy's excel will work with auto, but you need to datalog vehicle speed, so it will be used instead of RPM (I guess here). Unfortunatelly, I do not have speed logged.. Your method is a good indication.. meaning for some reason I am not getting what i suppose to from a MEth. despite runni9ng more timing and more boost. There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 Just tried your way to measure it.. I think it's not going to work with AT car either, as torque converter may set whatever it wants for RPM.. I'll do the same with vehicle speed. it shoudl work much better. I can't be so wrong with my butt duno... There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 I'm not running meth, but I have found that with more timing, I make more power, there for the motor does not need to work so hard, so I effectivly lower the "crusing" load. load is directly linked to MAF. This is a quote from my RR tread ( http://www.romraider.com/forum/post44979.html#p44979) I this this explains why i see same load with increased timing. And i do feel the power of meth :-) Will confirm it measuring logged speed. There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy_GT_Pilot Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 What is your difference in OP fuleing map compare to w/o meth? can you post just a difference? When I was tuning my meth, I first spent a lot of time dialing in my MAF calibration. I set my AFR to 11.4 across the board (in all cells outside of those targeting 14.7), and did a lot of logging and tweaking of my MAF calibration until I was seeing 11.4 (or very close to it) on my wideband for all higher MAF voltages. This was all done with my meth system off. I then did back to back runs targeting the same AFR (11.4) with the meth system on and then off. When I compared the AFRs, I was able to determine when things started to richen up and by how much. From 3,500 till about redline, my AFRs are between 0.3 - 0.5 richer with meth. I now target anywhere from 12.5 to 12.3 in order to achieve 12.0 on my wideband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 ^ Thank you! When you did MAF calibration, did you do it with WGDC=0? There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy_GT_Pilot Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I just looked at your logs and wow. I may be mistaken, but your "no meth" map is running leaner than your "meth" map. You're also running more timing in both maps than what is typically done by a significant margin. A couple of suggestions: 1. Slow down and take your time. 2. Load consertvative timing, boost and AFR values and calibrate your MAF correctly. You need to be confident that when you target a value, your ECU will achieve it. 3. Look at the data logs from others with similar set-ups and see what boost and timing is run. There is a great thread over at NASIOC just containing logs of a huge number of different set-ups and is a wealth of information. Some of the tunes are crap, but there are a number of folks there that really know what they're doing. 4. Develop a solid no-meth tune (not overly agressive). You can use the Cobb Stage Two as a baseline. 5. Turn your meth on and modify this base tune. I personally tuned boost first, then AFR, and finally timing. For timing I added changes in 1/3 or 2/3 degree increments and then logged to make sure things were fine. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447954 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy_GT_Pilot Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Indirectly yes. Since my meth system was already installed, I just turned it off to calibrate my MAF. Since my system has a failsafe connected to my boost control solenoid, with my meth system off I run on wastegate pressure only. ^ Thank you! When you did MAF calibration, did you do it with WGDC=0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 ^ What meth kit you aare running? and how you turn it off, just curious.. I have labonte, MAF based. To turn it off, I adjust start point to max (5V), which makes it never start injecting. But in this case failsafe would not open wastegate. I can make a special map for MAF calibration with WGDC=0, but I like your way better. There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy_GT_Pilot Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I have the Perrin PWI system - it has an on / off button on the display unit. When it's off the the BCS override is engaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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