paycer Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73065&highlight=LGT+SpecB The link is to the 'is the spec.B worth it over the non sB' survey. So far out of 300 people, 14 voted that the non sB is the way to go. The results are a 'consensus' but hardly a landslide. In fact for the money difference it's amazingly close so that should say something. It's not like a spec.B badge on a Legacy means much to anyone but other Legacy owners so people aren't buying to increase their street cred. My dad has an 07 GT that I compared the 08 sB to. Like others have pointed out some of the Subie 5 speeds leave a bit to be desired in the 'feel' department. While my dad's GT seems better than my 02 WRX or 05 FXT was, my 05 STi's 6 speed was light years better. My wife agreed (she owned the Forester XT) and so the spec.B became her current car. Is the sB worth ~6K more than the standard GT? I dunno, maybe not. Does the sB drive better than a stock GT? ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY. PS the nav is kinda weak and I wish SOA had slapped some gauges (boost!) in it's place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS5689 Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 ha, oh well. its still worth a look see Especially because Wikipedia is not a credible source.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Track Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 PS the nav is kinda weak and I wish SOA had slapped some gauges (boost!) in it's place... Anyone know if it's possible to retrofit the nav with a nice aftermarket unit? I know NOTHING about aftermarket head units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Blithering idiot, did you just take on the mighty edkwon? Well, disagree is probably a better term. If weight is no problem, why do Porsche and BMW offer light weight models? So the owners can throw some sandbags in the trunk? I'll admit to being a new LGT owner, but I've been driving for many years in performance cars, and I know what constitutes that performance. The unmodified LGT and "B" aren't balls-out road-rockets. There both "sleepers", "Q cars", etc. They don't look like they're sports cars, so they catch real sports cars, and their drivers, off guard. They offer a reasonable amount of driving fun for less than $35K [new prices are what matters], despite selected poster's driving fanatasies. Both cars could be a lot better in quite a few areas. Both manual transmissions are poorly executed. The ratios are too close and short, and the shift is lousy [the aftermarket shifter industry exists for a reason]. Honda/Acura, and BMW do a better job. Engine power and torque build about 800-1000 rpm too low, and the stock boost pressure should be at least 10% greater. Driveline drag is horrible for a modern vehicle. So there. Cheers, Cheeky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacks GT Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Whata rude newb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tord Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 you do know the specB has 10 more hp cause of the specB emblem on the trunk. so i say buy the normal LGT. put the specB emblem thingy on the trunk. then you get the extra HP the SpecB has. oh also remeber to replace the shift knob with one that has 6speed pattern. no one will never know the diffrence. not even you. well unless you try to shift into 6th...... i am still trying to figure out how to put the 6 speed knob on my 5EAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 i am still trying to figure out how to put the 6 speed knob on my 5EAT. May I suggest a hacksaw and duct tape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tord Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 hmmm true it is not a spec b so it will not break the hacksaw blade just might work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I might add, if the extra weight makes no difference for everyday driving between the LGT and "B", where is the cost/benefit of a "B" then. If the "B" is going to be for all intents and purposes the same as an LGT, why spend the extra? This is my contention all along. "Serious perspective"...you're kidding, right? Drag around 115 lbs for the life of any car, and do the numbers. Have Fun, Albatross. How many of us are concerned about autocross levels of handling during our every day driving, which occupies, say 90% of our driving experience. not me, thats for sure. I do drive in the mountains and while the car can always be lighter, that just becomes a slippery slope, and its all relative. your car may be 115 lbs lighter than mine, but theres alwasy going to be ppl who will say your car is a heavy boat and those who drive AWD sedans 300-400 lbs heavier than mine who say the Spec B is a relative lightweight compared to their rides. It's all relative and that 115 lb deficit can easily be made up just having one normal sized adult passenger? So you're saying what, you're loathe to do any kind of fun driving with another person in the car because said passenger/friend/companion is a total detriment to your driving? I'm sorry but treating our Legacies as if they were Formula 1 racecars where every extra gram of weight is obsessively shaved for the pursuit of ultimate performance is kind of .... delusional at best. I'm sorry i don't obsess over the weight issue of my car over more significant things in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTATV Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 How many of us are concerned about autocross levels of handling during our every day driving, which occupies, say 90% of our driving experience. not me, thats for sure. I do drive in the mountains and while the car can always be lighter, that just becomes a slippery slope, and its all relative. your car may be 115 lbs lighter than mine, but theres alwasy going to be ppl who will say your car is a heavy boat and those who drive AWD sedans 300-400 lbs heavier than mine who say the Spec B is a relative lightweight compared to their rides. It's all relative and that 115 lb deficit can easily be made up just having one normal sized adult passenger? So you're saying what, you're loathe to do any kind of fun driving with another person in the car because said passenger/friend/companion is a total detriment to your driving? I'm sorry but treating our Legacies as if they were Formula 1 racecars where every extra gram of weight is obsessively shaved for the pursuit of ultimate performance is kind of .... delusional at best. I'm sorry i don't obsess over the weight issue of my car over more significant things in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Track Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I too agree with Ed. I'm just throwing this out there for the sake of good-natured comparison. I track my car (Buttonwillow) a couple of times a year and 99% is daily driving, so I'm no F1 driver. However, comparing within the Subaru community brings up some interesting numbers. My reason for doing this is that I am coming from the STI group where people can be obsessive about weight to a fault. I've often wondered why they chose the STI if they were so retentive about cutting weight. I've never thought of Subarus as feather-weight - they're far too robustly constructed. However, when given an option (all other aspects being equal), I will happily select a lighter weight component if available. I relate this specifically to wheels, tires, batteries, brake rotors, batteries, and the ubiquitous JDM bumper beam. So let's look at a few figures that I pulled up: 2009 Legacy GT - curb weight 3428 lbs (manual trans) 2009 Legacy GT Spec B curb weight 3543 lbs Wheelbase - 105.1 inches Length - 185 inches (!!!) Track F/R - 58.9 inches/58.5 inches Height - 56.1 inches Width - 68.1 inches 2006 STI - curb weight 3351 lbs Wheelbase - 100 inches Length - 175.8 inches Track F/R - 58.7 inches/58.9 inches Height - 56.3 inches Width - 68.5 inches Without a c.g. position listed for either car, I'm willing to venture that the STI has a lower center of gravity, esp. with the no sunroof option, and the nimbler handling bears that out. Even the heavier Spec B is surprisingly within only a couple hundred pounds of the STI. In many respects, these cars appear to be quite close in construction. We all know that the Legacy is longer, and admittedly I didn't bother to try to figure out the overhangs f/r and how they relate to that extra 9+ inches of overall length. However, I'm willing to bet that the longer wheelbase and virtually identical track & width lend the LGT to being a better car on a road course despite the extra weight. The STI will be the quicker auto-x car nearly all of the time on wheelbase and c.g. alone (not to mention tires). That said, I'd love nothing more than to see a LGT gut the field at an auto-x, especially with the rear seats folded down and a mountain bike in the trunk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Whata rude newb What, for 'balls-out"? It's a term originating from the two steel balls on a spring-loaded scissor arm, which spun around on old steam engines, and agricultural engines, before they had the more familiar and accurate dial tachometers. Increased size of the rotating ball radius indicated more RPMs. If you mean I'm rude 'cause I happen to disagree with some long term posters...well, jeez, so much for free speech. You mean I can't disagree with a poster just because they've been on the board for years, or because they made some part-swap modifications. My opinions are based on years of driving experience, on 3 continents, in a wide variety of cars, both factory stock, and extremely modified [800hp blown/nitrous 351 4V Cleveland in a road registered Ford sedan]. I'm not posing as an expert, and I don't kneel at the altar of Subaru, I just happen to own an LGT. I've driven much better, and much worse. My point about weight was originally in response to a poster's questions about vehicle weight and the old LGT vs. “B" question. If the more learned posters can't tell the difference when adding another 115lbs of weight to their vehicles, they need to put this much weight in the vehicle, go for a spin, then remove the weight, and see if they can perceive a difference. If they can't... well, I must possess special seat-of-the-pants driving senses or something. Sure, you'll get used to the extra weight. You can get used to a mediocre car too. The extra weight most modern-day cars seem to be dragging around is killing performance, and costing us a heap at the pump. There was an interesting piece in "CAR & DRIVER" a while back, where either P Bedard or C Csar wrote a criticism of this very trend in modern autos. Light weight is what makes Mazda's Miata such a blast to drive. Imagine if Subaru could give us a 3000 lb Legacy. Light weight is as good as mod-free power. I'm beginning to believe some of the "B" owners have very thin skins. I'm not criticizing their buying decisions. I don't care. Cheers, Albatross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacks GT Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Nope i called you a rude newb for just the way you post. "you're kidding right?" and "so there" And for perspective, i have driven in asia, africa, north america, south america, europe and australasia. I have piloted RAF tornado gr4s capable of 1500mph with 32000lbs of thrust, as well as Challenger tanks. Cant say i've ever driven an 800hp ford, have ridden a 250hp Honda Blackbird though, and rebuilt an MGB GT that in the end was pushing around 400hp. But im only 46 so i probably havent got as much driving expirience as you or owned nearly as many cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Read around the middle of my last post. Additionally; "you're kidding..", and "so there", It's called tongue-in-cheek, and you're getting bent out of shape about it. I think I ended my previous post with a reasonable and well thought out obsevation, to spread oil on the waters, so to speak. Now, if you're attempting to be sarcastic, you're lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas569 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59624&d=1226463176 This is the only downside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Welcome! If you had a mustang before and you are a 26 year old guy, better stay clear of here, youll be 320WHP before you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 [quote=Albatross;2153 I'm beginning to believe some of the "B" owners have very thin skins. I'm not criticizing their buying decisions. I don't care. Cheers, Albatross. If i owned a non Spec B LGT, i'd be saying exactly the same thing, so don't start lumping all ppl who disagree with you into some ficitonal category. First of all are you listening to yourself? You're compaing a Miata to a mid size 4 door family sedan. Let's say it again together, a mid-size 4 door family sedan, which is marketed towards people who buy a mid size 4 door family sedans, and tell me the logic of offering this car in a stripped out 'superleggera' form? So making the car more lightweight would entail what? Either building it with much more expensive lightweight materials (aluminum, carbon fibre, etc) making the price $$$$$, or stripping it of 'nonessential' weight which includes sound deadening material, carpet, all the usual materials that is considered 'detrimental' to performance. If they went with that philosophy then i would bet Subaru wouldn't sell many of these cars at all, except to a few hardcore 'out-of-touch-with-reality' drivers such as yourself. And if you argue then 'why can't they just build a limited number in a super lightweight trim and the rest built normally for ppl who don't care about performance'. Seriously, do you think Subaru of America is so awash with money they would do something like that? And again, why would they pick the Legacy as their SL car, when all logic would dictate the Impreza would be chosen for a special lightweight trim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas569 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 yes make a TR legacy! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 First of all are you listening to yourself? You're compaing a Miata to a mid size 4 door family sedan. Nope, I didn't compare a Miata to a LGT/B, I was attempting to shed light on the advantage of being lightweight. Did you read anywhere "in comparing the LGT to a Miata"... hardcore 'out-of-touch-with-reality' drivers such as yourself. Now what makes you think I'm out-of-touch-with-reality? Are you a psychiatrist perhaps? No? I'll take it as more tongue in cheek. I think you may have missed large problem with today's auto industry. It's hard to buy a stripper with any performance. How long before Subaru decide they can cease making a turbo manual version of the family hack, and not lose any market share. I have no idea of the number of LGTs and Bs they make worldwide, but I'd bet it is insignificant to the total number of automatic naturally aspirated models. Subaru and all the others load up our vehicles with overpriced compulsory "options" crap, and make a bigger profit. Do you believe it really costs Subaru $6K more to turn out a "B" over an LGT? Their marketing geniuses have worked out they can sell them for this premium over the LGT. Consider how in the LGT you have to pay for dual climate control; a sun roof, electric seats, etc, just to get a car that has some reasonable performance. How long till they figure they can eliminate the manual gearbox option, and simply market an automatic, and jack up the price? Mazda seems to have forgotten all about the manual transmission in their “6”. Look what Ford did to the SHO. The "Big 3" of Detroit are masters of this, and it took Ford how long to give us back a basic pony car? GM and Chrysler are still working on it, and they can't get it right. You should study the auto industry in Australia. You can buy semi-stripper family sedans with manual gearboxes and V-8s or a turbo 6 [Ford Falcon]. If you want to load them up with chintz and baubles, spend up big. Look at what’s available in Europe as an example of choice. I have no idea how much SoA make in a year. I don't think they have to sell the LGT or B to survive. Maybe the performance cars give them some market presence, get people into the showroom, whatever. Perhaps it’s just keeping the enthusiasts off their back. It saddens and worries me. Cheers, Albatross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backlash Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 wow this thread took a turn for the worse... Look what Ford did to the SHO. The "Big 3" of Detroit are masters of this, and it took Ford how long to give us back a basic pony car?and a side point to the above mention of SHO.... uh, you do know that was YAMAHA that did the Fords..... do the research. SHO uses the motor YAMAHA designed for them... yes it's Wikipedia, but it was the first link that popped up, and at least the first paragraph IS accurate. (for those that don't know already, Former Yamaha dealer here.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Yamaha_V8_engine Same goes for the Harley V-rod. it should be called the Porsche-Harley V-rod. (ever wonder why it ONLY came in Porsche silver for so long?...) and still get blown away by a STOCK Honda gold wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 you do know that was YAMAHA that did the Fords Read the sentence, and understand the context. I know Yamaha did the original 3 litre V6 in the SHO. Ford turned the SHO into a poser-mobile, and eventually canned it. They started with a good idea, and the marketing gurus just couldn't keep their hands off, it could they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 So, lets give this thread a turn for the better, to help readers make educated and informed buying decisions: The Legacy is: "THE BEST 4 DOOR SEDAN ON THE PLANET. NO, I'M WRONG. THE SPEC "B" IS EVEN BETTER, IT'S GOT $6K WORTH OF MORE MORE STUFF ON IT. IT WOULD EASILY COST YOU ABOUT "X" [MAKE UP ANY NUMBER YOU WANT AND MULTIPLY X 5] NUMBER OF DOLLARS TO ADD ALL THIS STUFF IN LITTLE BITS". Don't be concerned about purchase cost, you'll never notice the extra if you finance it [hope your credit rating is golden these days]. You'll have us to thank for whatever happens. Seriously, we have a duty of care to all our fellow car enthusiasts. Give them something to mull over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backlash Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 someone's button got pushed.... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas569 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 ibtl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieSpecB Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 So, lets give this thread a turn for the better, to help readers make educated and informed buying decisions: The Legacy is: "THE BEST 4 DOOR SEDAN ON THE PLANET. NO, I'M WRONG. THE SPEC "B" IS EVEN BETTER, IT'S GOT $6K WORTH OF MORE MORE STUFF ON IT. IT WOULD EASILY COST YOU ABOUT "X" [MAKE UP ANY NUMBER YOU WANT AND MULTIPLY X 5] NUMBER OF DOLLARS TO ADD ALL THIS STUFF IN LITTLE BITS". Don't be concerned about purchase cost, you'll never notice the extra if you finance it [hope your credit rating is golden these days]. You'll have us to thank for whatever happens. Seriously, we have a duty of care to all our fellow car enthusiasts. Give them something to mull over. Show me a Legacy GT Limited with Nav that's $6k less than a spec.B, MSRP wise... No extra accesories on either, no destination charge. I'm talking straight brand new MSRP between an LGT Limited with Nav and an LGT/B. Once you realize the price difference isn't even close to $6k, then add all the extras the LGT/B has over the Limited on top of the previous fact... The spec.B will stop sounding so "bad". I think the #1 reason for someone choosing a Limited over a spec.B, if price isn't a factor but they want factory nav, is because they might prefer 5EAT. Other than that, if price is no issue and they want manual (and Nav), the spec.B is kind of a no brainer. When you're spending $30k ~ $35k on a brand new mid-size sedan, auto-crossing it is probably way down on your list of priorities. Or, at least, it *should* be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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