jonklein611 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article3638139.ece enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrinerMonkey Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Sounds like the diesel is a dud. No matter, I have resigned myself to the fact the diesel cars are DOA in the states anyway. With diesel at $5+ a gallon I seriously doubt Subaru, Toyota, or Honda will bring their diesels to the states anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtbensley Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 yeah but even with diesel that much it still gets you so much better mpg that its worth it. You spend more at the pump but it gets you farther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dod Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Gas costs 4.19/gallon for premium here in Maine. Diesel is $4.89. thats 17% more per unit volume. If diesels get typically 30% better fuel economy thats still a net savings. If the gas car gets 25 MPG it costs .167 cents per mile to operate the car. The diesel car might get 33 MPG, and cost .148 cents per mile. Thats 12% savings per mile. The problem comes in justifying the additional $2K you might spend on the diesel car. If the fuel rates are fixed and you drive 20K miles per year it will take over 5 years to payback the investment, not accounting for debt service on the loan...How many people pound 20K miles a year to a car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Sounds like the diesel is a dud. No matter, I have resigned myself to the fact the diesel cars are DOA in the states anyway. With diesel at $5+ a gallon I seriously doubt Subaru, Toyota, or Honda will bring their diesels to the states anytime soon. Normally, i'd point out Clarkson haates diesels, at least in cars. Hwoever, he's not alone in this feeling. The subaru diesel is underpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeTrout Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Have you driven it? Until you do so, reserve judgement about the drivability, please. I just drove a new (700 km on the odo) Volvo XC70 D5 in Berlin in June. It is a 2.0 L inline-5 cyl turbodiesel wagon that weighs about 1000 lbs more than an Outback. It was a sweet ride. I wasn't a fan of the auto transmission, but I have no complaints about the engine. It was fantastic in the city with all the torque, and on the highway you could cruise at a high rate of speed at 800 rpm. For the purpose of the Outback and Forrester, the 2.0 boxer diesel should be just right. Now they need to come out with a 3.0D boxer diesel for the Legacy line and they'll be beating M-B and BMW with their 6-cylinder diesels. While Clarkston is very entertaining, you can hardly consider him an objective reviewer. If he's on a crusade (in this case, clearly and anti-diesel crusade), he has all the objectivity of a G8 Summit protester. Fer chrissake, he didn't even bother to adjust his seat or to tell the navigation screen to dim at night! Oh, and one other useless opinion: even if the cost to run a diesel is the same as a gas engine, diesels usually last as least twice as long as their gas counterparts. Imagine that in a (already long-lasting) boxer! 250k miles? Forget it. Try 500k miles! Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrinerMonkey Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Oh, and one other useless opinion: even if the cost to run a diesel is the same as a gas engine, diesels usually last as least twice as long as their gas counterparts. Imagine that in a (already long-lasting) boxer! 250k miles? Forget it. Try 500k miles! Yeah, but they cost about $2k more to purchase... or the cost of a new gasoline engine so the longevity doesn't matter. How many people do you know would keep a car for 500k miles? Up here in the snow belt that car would have rusted to nothingness about 300k miles before that. Diesels just don't make economic sense with diesel fuel and engines costing so much. BTW Europe is starting to switch from diesels also so I don't hold out much hope for their future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeTrout Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Yeah, but they cost about $2k more to purchase... or the cost of a new gasoline engine so the longevity doesn't matter. How many people do you know would keep a car for 500k miles? Up here in the snow belt that car would have rusted to nothingness about 300k miles before that. Diesels just don't make economic sense with diesel fuel and engines costing so much. BTW Europe is starting to switch from diesels also so I don't hold out much hope for their future. So then the rest of the country, that doesn't salt the roads into a hypersaline slurry, should lose out, then? I buy new and run my cars until they are more expensive to maintain than they are worth. I'd like it to be 500k miles. A diesel isn't the right car for me, but that doesn't mean I'm going to disparage someone for whom a diesel is the right choice. Oh, and if Europe is going away from diesels, they have a very interesting strategy for doing so - by increasing the number of diesel cars manufactured and sold! Those clever Europeans! Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeTrout Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Oh, and in case you haven't been paying attention to the news, diesel fuel is less expensive than gasoline, it's just that we tax the heck out of it because of commercial trucking. Apples-to-apples diesel is less expensive than gasoline. Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrinerMonkey Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 So then the rest of the country, that doesn't salt the roads into a hypersaline slurry, should lose out, then? I buy new and run my cars until they are more expensive to maintain than they are worth. I'd like it to be 500k miles. A diesel isn't the right car for me, but that doesn't mean I'm going to disparage someone for whom a diesel is the right choice. Oh, and if Europe is going away from diesels, they have a very interesting strategy for doing so - by increasing the number of diesel cars manufactured and sold! Those clever Europeans! Bzzzzz try again: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/european-diesel-decline-has-begun/ Subaru sells the majority of their cars in the snow belt so there goes that idea. Point is almost no one keeps cars for much over 250k miles so the longevity argument doesn't really make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeTrout Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 So a one month, 3% drop defines a trend, does it? Maybe you should get one of those new h2o hybrids. My aunt's boyfriend's mechanic's accountant got 50 mpg on his Tahoe for half-a-tank with one! The whole "snow belt" doesn't use salt. The entire PNW avoids salting roads. New Hampshire and Vermont have active campaigns to drastically reduce the use of road salt, and the State of New York has road salt on a list of consideration for status as a pollutant. Between the Northeast and PNW, that's over half of SOA's sales. Your logic is almost as flawed as your evidence. Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Bzzzzz try again: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/european-diesel-decline-has-begun/ Subaru sells the majority of their cars in the snow belt so there goes that idea. Point is almost no one keeps cars for much over 250k miles so the longevity argument doesn't really make much sense.You do realize that the rise in prices, even in Europe, of diesel is because gasoline demand is up right? We are actually converting diesel into gas in many instances, and the refineries all over the world are converting to gasoline production because it is more lucrative. (higher demand) IF, all folks switched to diesel, the price of diesel would come down well below gasoline, as it is less expensive to produce, and a refinery can produce more of it... Moreover, biodiesel is actually a REAL way to get off crude, and even using diesel uses less crude than your average hybrid. So, if you are only concerned with the current cost of diesel, far be it for me to remove your blinders, but, if you can see logic, diesel is the next step to eliminating crude dependence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrinerMonkey Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 You do realize that the rise in prices, even in Europe, of diesel is because gasoline demand is up right? We are actually converting diesel into gas in many instances, and the refineries all over the world are converting to gasoline production because it is more lucrative. (higher demand) IF, all folks switched to diesel, the price of diesel would come down well below gasoline, as it is less expensive to produce, and a refinery can produce more of it... Moreover, biodiesel is actually a REAL way to get off crude, and even using diesel uses less crude than your average hybrid. So, if you are only concerned with the current cost of diesel, far be it for me to remove your blinders, but, if you can see logic, diesel is the next step to eliminating crude dependence... If "Ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry xmas. My points are : Longevity is not an issue because people don't keep cars that long because the rest of the car will fall apart before the engine does so who cares. Everyone will NOT be switching to diesel... not gonna happen. Gasoline demand is only going to go UP and never down. Two words... China and India. If you think it is hard to get Americans and Europeans to fork out an extra $2k for a diesel, try that in China or India where the Tata Nano will be sold in huge numbers. Biodiesel is NOT a real way to get off crude because you need to use oil to make the biodiesel in the first place. Tractors, herbicides, biodiesel plants... all or most use oil for energy. It would cost trillions to convert even a small portion of our engergy needs to biodiesel. Food is not fuel. Even the most fuel efficient diesels can barely match the fuel economy of hybrids, plus pollute a LOT more. I actually used to be a diesel fan and was excited about the Subaru diesel and VW diesels. I came to realize that it just doesn't make sense economically and I doubt it ever will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrinerMonkey Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 So a one month, 3% drop defines a trend, does it? Maybe you should get one of those new h2o hybrids. My aunt's boyfriend's mechanic's accountant got 50 mpg on his Tahoe for half-a-tank with one! The whole "snow belt" doesn't use salt. The entire PNW avoids salting roads. New Hampshire and Vermont have active campaigns to drastically reduce the use of road salt, and the State of New York has road salt on a list of consideration for status as a pollutant. Between the Northeast and PNW, that's over half of SOA's sales. Your logic is almost as flawed as your evidence. Ok...so the cars engine last 500k miles. Who will be driving these heaps and paying to fix all the things going wrong? Well, maybe the engines can be used to run ski lifts at Snoqualmi? Of all the pro diesel arguments I find the engine longevity one to be the weakest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 This is the Outback one I like: For The Boy racer who has grown up http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/new_car_reviews/article4359468.ece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Biodiesel is NOT a real way to get off crude because you need to use oil to make the biodiesel in the first place. Tractors, herbicides, biodiesel plants... all or most use oil for energy. It would cost trillions to convert even a small portion of our engergy needs to biodiesel. Food is not fuel.Two points you seem to completely ignore, or not know... Biodiesel can be created out of stuff other than food, including garbage... A diesel hybrid is cleaner and uses less fuel than a gasoline hybrid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrinerMonkey Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Two points you seem to completely ignore, or not know... Biodiesel can be created out of stuff other than food, including garbage... A diesel hybrid is cleaner and uses less fuel than a gasoline hybrid... Yes, I know those things. One thing they both have in common... the don't exist yet in real consumer application and so can't be shown to be profitable or cheaper than the current alternatives... which is my whole point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 ^^^Very very sad... This is why in many ways America has lost its ability to compete. No imagination and no ability to see beyond one's own interests, today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garandman Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 ^^^Very very sad... This is why in many ways America has lost its ability to compete. No imagination and no ability to see beyond one's own interests, today Speak for yourself. Our customers are booming. They manufacture anything from rapid prototyping machines to instruments for wind turbines to medical products to robots. The low dollar is a bonanza for many American manufacturers. Who cares if your toaster or iPod is made in China - 60% or more of the value still goes to Americans. I saw a Ted Koppel special on China and the manufacturer of cheap boom boxes there nets $4 per box: WalMart nets $14. Who Dares Wins スバル Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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