Looking at Swift springs and Bilstein HD struts

[Underdog]

After talking with the guys at Swift they have mentioned that yes Bilstein HD shocks would be 3/8" different then stock but the Spec B shocks and LGT shocks should be no more than 5-7mm difference in terms of ride height.

 

Your drop is definitely alot more than it should be, hopefully we can figure out what is going on here. Your about twice as low as the Swifts are designed to lower the car so something has to be off. I am gonna pass your measurements and info onto Swift and hopefully find out some more info.

 

ITS A MYSTERY

 

Wow, thanks! It will be interesting to see where SubLGTaru's car ends up with Swifts on stock struts.

[SubLGTaru]

Yeah, no kidding. I thought though, from what I have heard and seen on these forums, that the swifts are a pretty aggressive drop. What I have seen as far as pictures looks to me that they lower more than the claimed measurements.

 

Should be interesting to see tomorrow what the car looks like on the stock struts. Keep in mind, that the springs I purchased were used with about 3 months of driving on them. They should already be settled in and the way the car looks tomorrow, should be pretty permanent, IMO.

[Touge Tuning]

Wow, thanks! It will be interesting to see where SubLGTaru's car ends up with Swifts on stock struts.

 

Swift pointed out in the diagram you posted that the tolerance for wheel arch height from the centerline is almost .5" higher and almost 1" lower than the spec given which would account for the difference your reporting. That is a very big tolerance gap. Swift is hoping you can measure directly from the wheel hub centerline to the wheel arch and provide those exact numbers so they can compare to there specs.

[Touge Tuning]

Underdog - Swift said sometimes when you do inserts if your put them too far into the body then the length can be off. Waiting for more info, they also mentioned that the measurements I supplied them of 12.25" from centerline to fender on your car doesnt make sense but it may just be miscommunication.

[Underdog]

First off, I appreciate you doing the due diligence on this completely under your own initiative. I never meant to challenge the listed specs or ask you to communicate this to Swift, so that you would clarify this issue for your potential customers is a big for Togue Tuning.

 

When I redo the math using the lower-limit spec for stock ride height I get:

 

F: (24.75-12.5)-14= -1.75"

 

R: (24.75-12.5)-13.4= -1.15"

 

Then, correct the front ride height for the Bilsteins they were designed for, and you get a drop of -1.38". This 1.38"F/1.15"R is much closer to the spec that Swift listed (within 10-15%).

 

It is possible that the Koni rear shocks have a slightly lower spring perch versus the KYB's, since they are complete replacement units. The front inserts bottom out in the strut housing, so I'm not sure what they mean by "inserting them too far". They are literally bolted into the strut housing using the bottom of the tube as a bulkhead to mount to.

 

Regarding the 12.25" CL to fender, it must have been a misunderstanding, because I think the pictures speak for themselves. I will bring the car into the level-floored garage bay tomorrow during lunch and take the pictures without the center caps, and as squarely as possible.

 

It is important to note: given the tolerance on the stock spec., the lower perch height discrepancies, and production tolerances, this stance is completely plausible for any member putting Swifts on their KYB stockers. It is possible even, that a car on the high side of that tolerance may be only as low as my car was stock, after adding Swift springs. That is, of course, if my car was at the very lower limit for stock ride-height.

 

Here are some before pics:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1669/img0838resizesl3.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8346/newwheelssideshotresizesq0.jpg

 

 

After:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1703/img2964cropedbalancedcs7.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1954/img2792wu6.jpg

[Touge Tuning]

LMK what the measurement is from the CL of the wheel hub to the fender and I will pass the info on to Swift. I am trying to get confirmation but I believe the Swifts are designed for the USDM LGT not the JDM version although Swifts are made in Japan.

[Underdog]

Yeah, I didn't get to it today unfortunately. However, I'm not sure that the pictures are gonna show much more than the pics above... They are certainly close enough to tell that it's the 24.75" fender height and 12.5" hub CL, perhaps they don't like subtraction?

 

I bought these springs under the assumption they were designed for USDM struts, as shown by MachV's wagon. Recently, member Unclemat pointed out that the spring part numbers were the same on a Japanese vendors site as they were on the US Swift site.

[NSFW]

First off, I appreciate you doing the due diligence on this completely under your own initiative. I never meant to challenge the listed specs or ask you to communicate this to Swift, so that you would clarify this issue for your potential customers is a big for Togue Tuning.

 

 

+2!

[Underdog]

Okay,

 

It didn't make sense to me to try and measure from the CL of the hub to the fender arch, strictly by eye and with a tape measure. I found it much more repeatable to measure from the garage floor. So, to prevent the Swift guys from having to do any math, I will lay it all out here:

 

From the 1st attached picture, you can see that the wheel hub CL measures between 12-1/16 ad 12-1/8. This was consistent on all 4 wheels, so we will take the middle, 12-3/32, and subtract that from all the fender heights.

 

Front Wheels:

 

LF: 25"

RF: 24-15/16"

Average: 24-31/32"

Average-CL: (24-31/32) - (12-3/32) = 12-7/8"

Stock Spec (Sedan & Wagon): 15" (+1/2", -1")

Drop: 2-1/8" from nominal

 

Rear Wheels:

 

LR: 25-3/32"

RR: 25-5/16"

Average: 25-13/64"

Average-CL: (25-13/64) - (12-3/32) = 13-7/64"

Stock Spec (Sedan Only): 14.4" (+1/2", -1")

Drop: ~1-1/2" from nominal

 

So, the drop is more mild than my earlier approximations had shown. However, it still seems to be lower than the published spec.

 

Looking at the Japanese and USA Swift websites the part number for Legacy GT Sedan springs is the same: 4F008.

 

IMO, the differences between Bilstein and KYB lower spring perches, and also the weight difference between the EJ20 and EJ25, could certainly account for the discrepancy with the front drop.

 

I think that is about as much independent investigation as I'm willing to put into this, unless anyone has additional, specific questions.

 

I would like to reiterate my complete satisfaction with my modified suspension, a critical part of which is the Swifts and Konis. It took roughly a year of research and installations, but it has been well worth it.

[SubLGTaru]

^^^ Got my swifts on yesterday! Stance is great...sorry no pics up yet, been busy today, try to get some tomorrow.

 

Impressions, I was very worried about it being a harsh ride, but really it's not as bad as I was anticipating. Sure the ride is firmer, and you will know it when you hit a decent sized bump. You feel the imperfections in the road a little more, but to be honest, it really isn't that bad. I like the sportier feel the ride has, even with just being on stock struts. The swifts really help reduce the lean of the car going into turns and helps promote a level entry and exit out of turns.

 

I will eventually be upgrading the struts, but for right now, I am satisfied with the improvement the Swifts have made over the stock struts. It's just a much more planted and sportier feel and makes the car react completely different.

[Touge Tuning]

Okay,

 

It didn't make sense to me to try and measure from the CL of the hub to the fender arch, strictly by eye and with a tape measure. I found it much more repeatable to measure from the garage floor. So, to prevent the Swift guys from having to do any math, I will lay it all out here:

 

From the 1st attached picture, you can see that the wheel hub CL measures between 12-1/16 ad 12-1/8. This was consistent on all 4 wheels, so we will take the middle, 12-3/32, and subtract that from all the fender heights.

 

Front Wheels:

 

LF: 25"

RF: 24-15/16"

Average: 24-31/32"

Average-CL: (24-31/32) - (12-3/32) = 12-7/8"

Stock Spec (Sedan & Wagon): 15" (+1/2", -1")

Drop: 2-1/8" from nominal

 

Rear Wheels:

 

LR: 25-3/32"

RR: 25-5/16"

Average: 25-13/64"

Average-CL: (25-13/64) - (12-3/32) = 13-7/64"

Stock Spec (Sedan Only): 14.4" (+1/2", -1")

Drop: ~1-1/2" from nominal

 

So, the drop is more mild than my earlier approximations had shown. However, it still seems to be lower than the published spec.

 

Looking at the Japanese and USA Swift websites the part number for Legacy GT Sedan springs is the same: 4F008.

 

IMO, the differences between Bilstein and KYB lower spring perches, and also the weight difference between the EJ20 and EJ25, could certainly account for the discrepancy with the front drop.

 

I think that is about as much independent investigation as I'm willing to put into this, unless anyone has additional, specific questions.

 

I would like to reiterate my complete satisfaction with my modified suspension, a critical part of which is the Swifts and Konis. It took roughly a year of research and installations, but it has been well worth it.

 

I will forward your measurements to Swift and see what they have to say. The rear definitely seems pretty close given the tolerance. Its only the front drop that concerns me eventhough there is a large tolerance I still would rather see it not so low in the front although your car does look good.

 

Thanks for taking the time to get the measurements and what not, I want to help people better understand stuff when they are buying it. If we find that Koni's and Swifts maybe drop the car more than other setups it is good info to have out there or others to decide.

[Spoonwacker]

This thread looks like it has some good info...I've had wagon Swifts on Bilstein HDs since January, and I'm loving the combo. I have the "proper" JDM setup with Spec-B tophats. In these pictures from a recent meet, the RBP in front is on Pinks with Bilsteins, and my ABP is immediately behind it. Both cars on on PFF7s with 225/40/18s, so it's a fair comparison of front drop between the two:

 

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Spoonwacker/MtStHelens%202008/Smokey1.jpg

 

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Spoonwacker/MtStHelens%202008/Smokey2.jpg

 

Honestly, I can't imagine what these would feel like on stock struts. The Bilsteins are able to firmly damp most harsh bumps, and I'm just not confident the stock ones would've been able to do that.

[Touge Tuning]

Underdog - Here is what Swift has come back to me with after providing them with your most recent specs.

 

The numbers looked very close for the rears, but still a bit off on the

fronts.

 

I would like to mention something about the KYB lower spring perch.

Bilstein's Spring perches are about 1/4 ~ 1/2 inch taller.

 

But do you know that the tophats on the two setups are also different for

the KYB and the Bilstein. The top hats actually compensate for the 1/4 ~ 1/2

inch shorter on the KYB's. So the overall dimensions in terms of the bottom

perch and the top hat should be identical if you measure the both. But

again, if the tolerance for both KYB and Bilsteins are 100% correct.

 

But as you had seen on the Subaru's diagram, even OEM manufacture have such

a great margin of cushion of error.

 

We conclude that for this customer, it is more so the tolerance of his OEM

parts that are playing a role on his setup

[Underdog]

If that is true, then that is ground-breaking information! AFAIK, we have always been under the assumption that there were ride-height differences between the two strut styles. Based on this information, any differences in the spring perch are offset by the corresponding tophat.

 

Perhaps the differences our previous notions were based on were due only to manufacturing tolerance stack-up?

[esbee]

This thread looks like it has some good info...I've had wagon Swifts on Bilstein HDs since January, and I'm loving the combo. I have the "proper" JDM setup with Spec-B tophats. In these pictures from a recent meet, the RBP in front is on Pinks with Bilsteins, and my ABP is immediately behind it. Both cars on on PFF7s with 225/40/18s, so it's a fair comparison of front drop between the two:

 

 

 

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t265/Spoonwacker/MtStHelens%202008/Smokey2.jpg

 

Honestly, I can't imagine what these would feel like on stock struts. The Bilsteins are able to firmly damp most harsh bumps, and I'm just not confident the stock ones would've been able to do that.

 

Have you ridden in the car with the Pinks? Besides the lower stance on the Swifts, how does the ride compare between the Swifts & Pinks?

 

I'm considering one of these setups, but don't want anything too harsh.

[Spoonwacker]

Have you ridden in the car with the Pinks? Besides the lower stance on the Swifts, how does the ride compare between the Swifts & Pinks?

 

I'm considering one of these setups, but don't want anything too harsh.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't get to ride in his car. NSFW (the black wagon with hyperblack rims) was going to ride in our cars for a comparison, but we didn't get around to it.

 

FWIW, Uberwagon (on the Pinks) did say that my car looked like it was cornering flatter than his felt. We both have Cobb sway bars. Pictures of us going through a turn are in this thread.

[esbee]

Right now, I only have the Cobb RSB. Haven't gotten around to getting the front yet. But, the suspension is way too soft and bouncy for me now.

 

Before this car, I had a 2.5RS with V4 STi struts & springs on it. It was a ton of fun to drive and felt like a go-kart, but on long-ish trips, was just too much. I want something that's not that harsh, but is still a significant improvement over stock.

[Spoonwacker]

The front sway will help (I drove for a week with just the rear before I got around to installing mine), but his was on stock springs/struts. I'm not sure what the effect would be now that I've upgraded to Bilsteins/Swifts.

 

I wouldn't say that the Swifts are so stiff that they feel like a go-kart, but I tend to avoid truly awful roads as much as I can. As far as road trips go, I recently drove from SEA to SF on I-5, and had no complaints about the suspension based on that trip (there's even a twisty section just south of Mt Shasta that easily qualifies as the most entertaining stretch of interstate I've ever driven). Our recent group drive around Mt St Helens made me cringe a few times, but that was because it was a FS road and had clearly been dinged up a bit over the winter, with big bumps, dips, and lips every few miles. I wouldn't want to drive on that road with this setup everyday, but I'm willing to accept those bumps for the great handling everywhere else.

[Guest]

Honestly, I can't imagine what these would feel like on stock struts. The Bilsteins are able to firmly damp most harsh bumps, and I'm just not confident the stock ones would've been able to do that.

 

Of course. Putting swifts (or other lowering stiff springs) on stockers will result in crappy ride, and handling will still be crappy since stockers can't handle them.

 

Frankly, vendor pushing Swifts as being "fine" with stockers is not making honest recommendation.

 

Swifts were designed for Bilsteins and should be used with them.

[Underdog]

Unclemat, what do you think about Swift's response, quoted in post #38? Seems like JDM or USDM springs can be interchanged as long as the correct tophats are used.

[Spoonwacker]

Frankly, vendor pushing Swifts as being "fine" with stockers is not making honest recommendation.

 

Swifts were designed for Bilsteins and should be used with them.

 

I absolutely agree.

[Touge Tuning]

If that is true, then that is ground-breaking information! AFAIK, we have always been under the assumption that there were ride-height differences between the two strut styles. Based on this information, any differences in the spring perch are offset by the corresponding tophat.

 

Perhaps the differences our previous notions were based on were due only to manufacturing tolerance stack-up?

 

Yeah this is new info to me aswell, but obviously Springs are something Swift does on a daily basis so im sure they have much more info and specs than we could ever get.

[goneskiian]

So how does this explain all of the folks noticing that the Bilsteins ride higher?

 

Swift says it should all even out as far as ride height.

 

Something doesn't jive.

[NSFW]

My only guess is maybe Koni + JDM tophat = stock height?

 

It seems pretty well established that Bilstein + JDM tophat = ~3/8 taller up front. At least from looking at pics on this site... If only more people took before-and-after measurements, than we'd really know for sure.

[fonts]

I did not measure before and after .... but should have some pics of before and after.

 

I'll try to take some after shots and post them up later ....