moshe_levy Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Hello All- New member here. My BMW 530i is coming off lease in June and I've started shopping already. Much as I'd like a new 330Xi (been a BMW customer for years,) I cannot forgive the new Bangel styling of the BMWs, ew 3-Series included. So, I've narrowed down my picks to either a LGT/ltd or an A4. Leaning towards the Subie, since I have a 105 mile per day commute (round trip) and am leery of Audi reliability.... So I headed down to the local dealer and drove Legacy GTX http://www.bkcars.com/subaru/index.html which is essentially (this specific) dealer-designation for a GT with a Borla catback, strut tower brace, and a leather interior done by this dealer (or subcontractor). They had Limiteds too, but I wanted to sample the Borla sound, so I took the GTX. I found the car to be dynamically excellent, about as good as a car in this class can get. The Borlas were loud but not annoying, the car was buttoned down at speed, and it had surprising pickup - even more than I expected. Complaints were few but pretty significant: First, the car is buzzy at speed - about 3,000 rpm in my cruising range of 75 mph. The drone can wear on you during a long commute, and it's an area where the A4's six speed looks mighty good. A minor solution would be to ditch the Borlas, but the real solution would be a 6 speed in the Subaru. Second, the interior has some cheap plastics and touches in it that are out of place on a car in this price range, when one sees what VW and Audi do around the same price. The Japanese are still leagues behind the Germans in interior design and material quality, and it shows. A lack of optional stability control is also perplexing in a car with so much performance potential. These things aside, it is overall a fantastic car and a great value - plus, it's a rare "sleeper" with tons of aftermarket potential should one feel the urge for more power down the line. I'm hoping for 2006, Subaru addresses some of these shortcomings - an optional 6-speed and stability control would sure go a long way to making this car a "sure thing" for me. -MKL '02 530i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-2.5-GT Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I'm sure the borlas are giving you some of that "drone" effect you were talking about. I can't comment on the difference from stock as i have not driven that version, but without the borlas, i don't notice anything like that. As far as the 6-speed, there are countless conversations around here about that. It has its ups and downs either way. Same with the traction / stability control. Personally i like the more direct feeling without it. If you do a search for "stability control" you will find some good points made by all sides.... Either way, good luck in the search for a new car. I would suggest maybe trying a stock legacy without the dealer add ons. Unless you really like the seats, everything else can be gotten for pretty cheap. From what i have seen of the GTX, i hate the nav system they put in there, looks fugly! The strut bar is cheap and an easy mod and same with the mufflers. The seats would only really be the expensive and hard part to come by. I think with correct colors of the car, they can look nice, but can also cheapen the feel in other circumstances. But anyway, i suggest looking at the stock version and then you may be able to find aftermarket support to address your specific needs better. Good luck and fire the questions away, there are several people on this forum who seem to be quite the gurus and have helped me out quite a bit with questions i have had. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 The stock exhaust definitely does not have this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Jedimaster* Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 No drone in the stocker. No gay GTX emblem either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTM 525 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I'm with the above statements on the stock exhuast. I can cruise@3K and there is zero drone and the motor is very smooth and vibration free. The 6 speed debate ,well from all I have read here the 5 and 6 speeds have identical final drive ratios. So highway cruising rpm in the respective top gears would not differ between the two. Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this as I am not 100% sure on this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moshe_levy Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Two points in response to the replys: 1) By stability control, I meant what I am used to in the BMWs, which is fairly aggressive and can be turned off completely with a switch. I did not mean to imply a full time system which cannot be bypassed. I too would despise such a system. 2) Say what you will about the Boxer four's smoothness, 3k rpm is 3k rpm. It is nearly impossible to tune out the inherant noise and feel of an engine "working" vs one which is loping. Most of this is a function of the displacement and gearing, of course. But the A4 with the six speed, at only 1.8l, is a more relaxed highway cruiser as a result of its 6th. Yes, they are two different cars with two different purposes, so I am not making a direct comparison other than to say that a true overdrive 6th gear (NOT one identical to the current 5th gear with an extra cog thrown in the midrange) would be a boon for long, straight stretches and long commutes which include such driving. -MKL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 In the Audi 1.8 you are lucky the car can maintain highway speeds Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTM 525 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 3K is indeed 3K and the following may be a lame comparo but here goes. My daily driver before this was a 2000 Hyundai Elantra true only a 14,000 dollar entry level car. 3K in that and 3K in the LGT are worlds apart.The boxer design smooths things out a great deal over the conventional in line desgin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 But the A4 with the six speed, at only 1.8l, is a more relaxed highway cruiser as a result of its 6th Did you see how high it revved on the highway with the old 5 speed? From a supposedly an entry level luxury car. Really though, I can barely even tell I have an engine at all at 3k. With the stereo on a moderate volumes and the climate control on, I've accidentally launched the car at 4k.. All the noise you heard is from the exhaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-2.5-GT Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 something to think about with the A4 though in terms of that higher final drive, they will most definetly have to downshift to 5 or even 4 to get some torque to pass on the highway. With the LGT hit the gas in 5th and chances are you will still pull on other cars who have to shift. You are however higher in the rpm band, so it goes both ways. Personally i like how i do not have to downshift to pass on most occations, just give it some gas. I reserve the downshift for when i really need to speed up. Just be careful not to confuse the more "relaxed" feeling of the A4 with the fact that it has no power or load at those rpms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godwhomismike Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I recommend that you skip on getting the GTX version and opt for going to a regular Subaru dealership and test driving a regular Legacy GT Limited. I can assure you that the stock exhaust is dead quiet. You won't have any exhaust sound and you will not notice the 3K RPM. Trust us, we own these things. - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sands Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I'm in a e39 540 right now and am lookng for a replacement. What I think you will miss the most from the 5er is the general refinement of the cabin and road manners. You'll get no arguments from me that the LGT is the best car in it's class for an enthusiast, but it's a step down from the e39 for long legs on the freeway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-2.5-GT Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I'm in a e39 540 right now and am lookng for a replacement. What I think you will miss the most from the 5er is the general refinement of the cabin and road manners. You'll get no arguments from me that the LGT is the best car in it's class for an enthusiast, but it's a step down from the e39 for long legs on the freeway. Its also a significant step down in price. After all the branding and badges are done, there is still a good amount more money put into a 540 vs. an LGT. Eventually you WILL notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 My previous car was a 2000 VW GTI with the 1.8T engine (built in Germany). I was a member of VWvortex and my local VW Club. In our local club we had a Group Buy on Borla exhausts. Only 10 guys bought the borla exhaust and all 10 complained about its annoying noise (too loud & droning at highway cruising speeds). So I never bought the Borla exhaust. ------------------------------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 The real reason why you dont see stability control is because of the near impossible implmentation of the current technology to work with the mechanical differentals in the Legacy GT. Everything has its drawbacks. Real differentals in the legacy provide superior performance over the new brakeforce psudo differentals like you see on audis or FWD biased systems like the haldex in VW's. Although audi still uses a torsens center they have removed the torsens front and rear diffs and replaced them with brakeforce diffs. Haladex is just a FWD system what engages the rear wheels when it is needed. None of which holds a candle to the traction and performance of real differentials. Retaining the raw performance of mechanical diffs and the implementation of Stability Control is nearly impossible unless you go to a fully electromagnetic system such as the porche PSK or the REAL Nissan ATESSA like in the skyline GTR. The G35X ATESSA has a watered down brakeforce diff system such as in the audi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I'm in the same situation as you. I have a 530i coming off lease and I'm thinking about purachasing an LGT. I am tempted to purchase the 530 after the lease is over, just cause its so nice, but I think a new car would probably be better down the road. I haven't test driven the LGT yet so I'm not really sure how it compares to the bimmer. I agree with some of the others, don't get the GTX and put the extra stuff on after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godwhomismike Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 The G35X ATESSA has a watered down brakeforce diff system such as in the audi. At least the G35x is more rear bias than the Audi. - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT6Wagon Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Um... the stock exhaust is very quiet. I've more than once found myself going down the interstate in 4th.... Once even in 3rd. I only noticed because the thing had too much throttle response to be in 5th. The main noise at these speeds on my car was the POS RE-92's humming away on the pavement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChruiSSer Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Screw stability control. Subaru's AWD doesn't need stability control. Of course on ice or snow stability control would help, but 99% of the time you don't need it. Also, the AWD is kind of like a stability control. And not to mention, I doubt that even 1% of subaru's OUTBACK sales were the VDC with stability control. Honestly with the AWD there is NO need for stability control. Just slow down if the roads are that bad. Also I've never been a fan of the overglorified VW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red beast Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 go try a 3.0r. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05LegacyGT330Ci Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I agree that this sound you heard was the exhuast, I too have a 330 and it is definatley louder then the Legacy in both engine noise and exhuast (both of which I enjoy). I have not been in a GTX or a Legacy with Borla exhuast but I can assure you that the stock Legacy is not as loud as the 330, especially with 18s and wider tires it makes a little more road noise. Song of Post- Bob Marley- Slave Driver '05 Black Legacy GT Wagon 5-spd '02 Topaz/Black 330Ci 5-spd Drift Ryder's School of Rally Arts, coming to an Australia near you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eamiller Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Screw stability control. Subaru's AWD doesn't need stability control. Of course on ice or snow stability control would help, but 99% of the time you don't need it. Also, the AWD is kind of like a stability control. And not to mention, I doubt that even 1% of subaru's OUTBACK sales were the VDC with stability control. Honestly with the AWD there is NO need for stability control. Just slow down if the roads are that bad. Also I've never been a fan of the overglorified VW... I have to fervently disagree with you here. According to a study just released, ESC reduces the number of fatal single vehicle crashes by more than 50%, and total single vehicle crashes by 40%. By far the most effective safety equipment (more than airbags, ABS, AWD) to date. You have to understand that ESC can do things that no human could ever coordinate, let alone in that brief of a period of time. Also, VDC sales are low because few people can justify spending that much on a buffed up Legacy, same for the old LL Bean editions. I also highly doubt that the mechanical limited slip diffs are the reason you don't see it on plebian Legacies, it probably has more to do with cost (mechanical diffs used aren't locked, so there's still slip in them). I think you will see ESC on the Legacies soon, once everyone else starts doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I agree. It would be very nice for the legacy to implement ESC albeit nearly impossible with the viscous differentals. The next generation Subaru AWD should be an electropnumatic clutch system as in the WRC car. There are simply things that a computer can do more efficently, and quickly than even the most experienced driver. A driver can get around course faster without ESC but only if nothing goes wrong... Of course ESC isn't for performance its for saftey. Whats going to happen when you hit a patch of black ice at 60mph on the highway and you suddenly and unexpectedly spin out of control. No amount of "knowing how to drive" is going to get you out of that one. An ESC system can make the proper corrections in MILLISECONDS. The computer has corrected your path before you even have time to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSZCZ.lgt Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 i have a gtx from there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjoe Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 IBTL c'mon, really? this was 4 years old I thought we got over this and were never going to speak of it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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