Hanger Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Basically today i drove by a school zone, pulled over for a ticket for 43 mph in 25 mph zone and tinted front windows... This'll explain my confusion is the speed limit for school zone only valid when there are kids right? So if kids aren't out yet twchincally he shouldn't have gotten a ticket yeah that's what i thought too Then Hanger would have to prove that.. the cop doesn't care, he'd rather write the ticket and have him waste his time What happened to the stories with people getting a break by the officer. dammit! i tried to act innocent too! that what i told him ... he should just fight the the ticket in court. The time he got the ticket is written down and hanger just needs to find the time that the school area lets their kids out. If he's not near that time he should be fine. On the ticket is 2:54PM, there were no damn kids in sight Some school zone have flashing lights on their signs. Some school zones have a speed limit from a certain time even if the kids are inside the classrooms. If there is no time posted it's usually from 7:30 am to 3:30 pm. What is the speed limit on that street if there is no school? The school zone i drove by did had those flashing yellow lights with 25 speed limit signs, but no time period was posted. If there's no time periods posted, if i've gotten the ticket at 2:54PM does that make me guilty? he's still speeding he can just get a reduced fine My defense was, and i remember this clearly... when i drove by, there was a red cone in the middle of the intersection, which draw my attention to it, then i turned my head to look around and see if there're any kids on the sidewalk, which there was none and i thought the kids still in classes. I drove by, saw a guy who got pulled over but i still maintain my normal speed limit which was 40mph. half a mile later i was pulled over, showed me the speed gun for 43mph in 25 mph zone. And a freaking tinted window ticket!!! It's correctable, but does that mean i have to rip off the front ones and get it checked? This all fawking suck! Because from my understanding i thought as long as the kids are not out the speed limitation does not apply. I drive on that road everyday to work and home, i slow down in the morning when there's kids around and parent's car dropping the kids off. I know about the law but i just wasn't aware of my condition today. Freaking traffic school didn't say anything about time periods of the speed limitation applies to. I took traffic school roughly a couple months ago, which means i'm not qualify to fix this ticket anymore, but i'll suck that up. Do you guys think i stand a chance on contesting this ticket? ○ ○ ○ Instagram: itshangertime :spin: ○ ○ ○ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underscore Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 the tint probably made him less lenient on just giving you a warning but the cop isn't going to care about your excuse, you should go contest it. You have the time anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanger Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 i found a new job ○ ○ ○ Instagram: itshangertime :spin: ○ ○ ○ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 What exactly did the sign say. IIRC, CA school zone signs basically say "When Children present," right? If it has that notation you likely ahve a defense. However, they still likely have you for 43 in a 40. Depending on how CA law works, its likely they only ahve to prove you were doing 1 mph over the limit. In most states fine scheduals are not statutory. They are only suggestions. The law may just setup a max fine, like $600 or something any they can technically give you anything. Find the statutres you are accused of violating and read them in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight705 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 where was the road? a residential or a main road in a way? cause i never seen a 40mph limit on any streets, or read about them in the DMV book. business 15, residential 25, school 25, side-main road 35/45 (depending on what kind), big main road 45mph. at least that is what i remember? i can be wrong... i haven't read the book in 7 years... hahaahha i just go by whatever the posted signs says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitter-bert Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I don't F around with school zones, I'll go 25 even with kids not present. I've heard of people getting tickets for this even when kids aren't present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickdrift Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 What exactly did the sign say. IIRC, CA school zone signs basically say "When Children present," right? If it has that notation you likely ahve a defense. You are completely right. However, I have not seen one of those signs in CA for a while now. Most I have seen lately say 25MPH during school hours However, they still likely have you for 43 in a 40. Depending on how CA law works, its likely they only ahve to prove you were doing 1 mph over the limit. Not correct. Technically speed limits are all "suggestions" because the basic speed law prevails. Proving this point is difficult. If you appear before a judge you have to be armed to the gills with specific CVC's when arguing this point. Also, a full written statement regarding the traffic and weather conditions should be prepared by the accused as well. Specifically, if you really want to find out if you are guilty of the "infraction" you were accused of, you should look into what the CVC's say about school zones and speed. Additionally, looking into local (county or city) codes regarding speed in school zones would be wise as well. Personally, I would initially fight this citatation by mail. Law enforcement officials are paid *extra* to show up in court testify against you, they are not paid extra to prepare a written statement supporting their case against you. Thats just more paperwork they have to do. You have a better chance of the officer not writting his statement at all. And if he does, and the judge rules against you, you can then fight in person. My wife got a ticket in Tahoe in Nov. doing 50+ in a 30. We fought it by mail and won. I have said it before, but it's our responsibility to know the laws that we are held accountable for, and our duty to fight when we are falsely accused. Check out www.ticketassassin.com, it;s worth paying the $25 reg fee for the forms and information they supply. Find the statutes you are accused of violating and read them in full. Preach on brutha. Wise words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickdrift Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I don't F around with school zones, I'll go 25 even with kids not present. I've heard of people getting tickets for this even when kids aren't present. Sure, they'll keep writing illegal tickets as long as people continue to roll over and pay them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdeye Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 That sux! I was driving south on the 405, saw someone pulled over by a bike cop. The cop gave me the staredown. Half a mile down the road a truck had its axle hanging on the road blocking two lanes. As im thinking to myself how that cop could have been helping clear the lanes and diffuse the situation, I see another bike cop stopped on the side giving another ticket. Now I'm getting aggravated. I just hate seeing them, especially bike cops. I keep driving and my radar detector starts going off and I see another cop going the opposite direction. As I watch in my rearview mirror, his lights go on. Then it dawns on me, its the end of the month! Never speed at the end of the month! Apart from those 3 incidents I saw like 5x as many police cars today than any other day this month. I don't even approach the speed limit after seeing a cop. Thats how I got "paced" doing 120 on the SR73 when in reality I was doing 90. If I were you, I'd buy this book :Beat Your Ticket: Go to Court & Win and try to make it enough of a PITA for the cop that it gets dismissed on a technicality. If he stopped a lot of other people today, odds are he won't want to bother with someone actually fighting back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickdrift Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 If I were you, I'd buy this book :Beat Your Ticket: Go to Court & Win and try to make it enough of a PITA for the cop that it gets dismissed on a technicality. If he stopped a lot of other people today, odds are he won't want to bother with someone actually fighting back. Does that book deal with California laws specifically or all states in general? Sounds like a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underscore Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 where was the road? a residential or a main road in a way? cause i never seen a 40mph limit on any streets, or read about them in the DMV book. business 15, residential 25, school 25, side-main road 35/45 (depending on what kind), big main road 45mph. at least that is what i remember? i can be wrong... i haven't read the book in 7 years... hahaahha i just go by whatever the posted signs says. There are a few 30/40 mph limit streets out there. Over out in the IE area they have streets with 50/55 mph limits too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitter-bert Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 It's cuz you're Asian Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdeye Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I believe that one is CA specific. If it is not, there is one on Amazon that is, which is the one I was attempting to reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfool Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 some of the legal advice on this site seems as dangerous as the medical advice. basic speed law does not allow you to exceed the posted limit. ========================== California Driver Handbook Laws and Rules of the Road Speed Limits California has a "Basic Speed Law." This law means you may never drive faster than is safe for current conditions. For example, if you are driving 45 mph in a 55 mph speed zone during a dense fog, you could be cited for driving "too fast for conditions." You may never legally drive faster than the posted speed limit, even if you think it is safe to do so. ============================= if you truly believe you are without fault though, I encourage you to fight it cuz it's your civic duty. however, just to argue it for the sake of sticking it to the "fascist" police, I'd say just do traffic school. to be helpful, you can go to traffic school again. go to court, plead no contest, and ask for 2nd offender traffic school. the average driver breaks ~2000 traffic rules before getting a citation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniStiGuy Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 over 55% of tickets written for speeding are unclocked and just made up. OEM HID's Rx330 Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 FYI nearly all those books are based on one states law and are often old and outdated. However, when prosecuting those guys who bring the big "how to beat a ticket" books are great commic relief. Prima Facie speed on this road would be 25mph without signage CVC § 22352 (2) Twenty-five miles per hour: (A) On any highway other than a state highway, in any business or residence district unless a different speed is determined by local authority under procedures set forth in this code. (B) When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard “SCHOOL” warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children and the highway is posted with a standard “SCHOOL” warning sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard “SCHOOL” warning signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school grounds. You could attempt to prove that the safe speed on this road is 45mph or something. Its been done before, but the onus is on you to make the showing. This is quite hard to prove if you're not a traffic engineer or lawyer. This will be much easier to do if you can get the 40mph limit to apply, not the 25mph one. Unfortunatly, West has nothing on speeds over the limit in California. My experence in Minnesota (which has a very similar law) is that it is extremely to near impossible to prove the safe speed is much above the posted limit. It would be much easier to prove 3mph than 18. However, the schoolzone stuff could be rather cut and dry. Find out what times they are. /Not legal advice. //Legal advice comes from lawyers admitted to your state's bar. ///You really want to have a chance beat this thing? Go to your local lawschool's library and pick up West's Annotated code and a book on traffic law/misdemeanor law. Or get a lawyer (even better) ////My only traffic law experence is in Minnesota. None of this likely applies to you /////Disclaimer number 42 //////Prosecuting traffic tickets eats your brain (and soul), hence typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitter-bert Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 over 55% of tickets written for speeding are unclocked and just made up. ... Where the hell did you pull that number out of!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 ... Where the hell did you pull that number out of!?! I'm going with his ass. Cops can get enough BS tickets to keep quotas up without having to make crap up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickdrift Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 some of the legal advice on this site seems as dangerous as the medical advice. basic speed law does not allow you to exceed the posted limit. ========================== California Driver Handbook Laws and Rules of the Road Speed Limits California has a "Basic Speed Law." This law means you may never drive faster than is safe for current conditions. For example, if you are driving 45 mph in a 55 mph speed zone during a dense fog, you could be cited for driving "too fast for conditions." You may never legally drive faster than the posted speed limit, even if you think it is safe to do so. ============================= Spoken like a true bureaucrat. The example you gave doesn't disprove my point my friend. For example, CVC 22349(b) states, "Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no person shall drive a vehicle upon a two-lane, undivided highway at a speed greater than 55 miles per hour (88 km/h) unless that highway, or portion thereof, has been posted for a higher speed by the Department of Transportation or appropriate local agency upon the basis of an engineering and traffic survey." If, as it appears you are stating, the basic speed law only pertains to situations as you stated above, then terms like "notwithstanding any other provision of law" would not be necessary. Either a driver would be exceeding the speed limit or they are not. But that does not appear to be the case in the example above. That’s why I don't exceed the posted speed on these roads. Also, here’s a quote from city of Pasadena’s website, "The only time that you can exceed the posted speed limit (other than a “maximum” speed limit) is when you can demonstrate that your speed did not violate the Basic Speed Law at the time, place and conditions existing then". (http://www.ci.pasadena.ca.us/trans/trafficoperations/speedlimit.asp ; under Driving too Fast) Also, as I understand it, these are the only prima facie (read: true) speed limits, http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm. It is no surprise to me that materials distributed by our own state government would be so misleading, especially if you consider how much money they make from us writing wrongfully issued tickets. BTW- Thanks for the condescending comparison to medical advice procured on auto enthusiast web sites. *edit* Apparently I need to add, I am not a lawyer, but a citizen, and I can read. And if you’re reading these posts then I can safely assume you are literate as well. My suggestion is that you investigate state and local laws for yourself, and if you find you are legally in the right, then it could be advantageous to stand up for yourself. If you’re guilty, own up to it, ask for a reduction in bail, and don’t repeat the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickdrift Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 over 55% of tickets written for speeding are unclocked and just made up. I don't know how acurate of a number this is, but if we took a poll here ourselves it could be near this number. How many tickets have you guys out there received where the issuing officer put down 40+ or 50+ or 70+, and they neglect to write down the number of their radar unit. I bet 55% is close to that actual number written by CHP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sickdrift Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 NM+: Considering your experience, looking at CVC § 22352 (a.2.B) as you quoted, “When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children and the highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard "SCHOOL" warning signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school grounds;” Would you say that unless he was going over 25MPH while children were walking to school, from school, or during their noon recess period, that if he was cited for violating this vehicle code, that he is was not violating this code? I ask because as I read it, unless those conditions were met, or if he were violating the basic speed law, he is not guilty of the specified infraction. Honestly, I appreciate and respect the people who are employed to protect and serve citizens like myself, as those employed by police agencies. I hope my fervor for justice doesn’t come across as hatred for police people, or government as insinuated by another poster. But, it has been my experience many times over that many times the codes aren’t enforced as they are written, and mistakes are made, and I think it is very important to address these issues. Respectfully, Laurence aka Sickdrift Everyone: I have no desire to be a lawyer, but I do want to be knowledgeabe in matters of the law in which I, or a friend or relative, am being accused of violating. I hope my posts, which I try to support with valid reference's, can be helpful to someone as purely informational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniStiGuy Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 ... Where the hell did you pull that number out of!?! my best friend's dad was a sheriff and my cousins husband is a cop and my neighbor is chp. ohh and my fiance's best friends husband is a LAPD cop. every single one of them has attested to the fact that most tickets are just made up speeds. They see you obviously speeding but don't actually clock you so they just come up with a guesstimate. I'm sure most of us know that its not hard to guess the average speed of a car based off of the other cars around. You don't have to agree with what I say but its a fact that I've been told numerous times. Oh yeah and also I used to work for Riverside County so I was working with cops Day by day for over a year and they all said the same thing aswell. OEM HID's Rx330 Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 NM+: Considering your experience, looking at CVC § 22352 (a.2.B) as you quoted, “When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children and the highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard "SCHOOL" warning signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school grounds;” Would you say that unless he was going over 25MPH while children were walking to school, from school, or during their noon recess period, that if he was cited for violating this vehicle code, that he is was not violating this code? I ask because as I read it, unless those conditions were met, or if he were violating the basic speed law, he is not guilty of the specified infraction. This depends on so many factors, I really can't comment to much. Call up the school as when they start and end and when the recess period is. If you're more than an hour away from these times, I'd say you could have a strong case. edit: Just noticed 2:54PM. Could be more difficult. Not impossible if you saw no children. I'd really need to do more research than i have time for. OP needs to get down to the law library and get some anotated code and read up on what case law has said. Judges love a good, well presented argument, I think with enough research and such you could get a favorable ruling. I'll note that i've never practiced in a CA traffic court, so i don't know exactly what they're like, but I've heard of some absolutely awesome court battles when the defense knows the law. CA law is basically the most friendly toward drivers in the united states. There are lots of technicalities. (Technicalities make law fun) /Not legal advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanger Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 where was the road? a residential or a main road in a way? cause i never seen a 40mph limit on any streets, or read about them in the DMV book. business 15, residential 25, school 25, side-main road 35/45 (depending on what kind), big main road 45mph. at least that is what i remember? i can be wrong... i haven't read the book in 7 years... hahaahha i just go by whatever the posted signs says. it's a pretty wide road, 2 lane in each direction. normal speed is 35mph. if you are familiar with the area, it's Norht of where San Gabriel and Del Mar intersects when you exit off 60 freeway ○ ○ ○ Instagram: itshangertime :spin: ○ ○ ○ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanger Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 over 55% of tickets written for speeding are unclocked and just made up. right before i passed the schoolzone i saw a bike cop finishing up giving someone a ticket, then 1 minute he pulled me over. I'm not quite sure if it's the same cop and i was wondering... i don't think he even clocked me going that speed if he's the same cop that just finished up giving a ticket... but i was going 40mph, and he showed me 43mph ○ ○ ○ Instagram: itshangertime :spin: ○ ○ ○ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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